She was only 3 days old.

[Bigcypresshunter]

I posted this here last year, but have yet to positively ID. We have some new members and I could get some new thoughts. It is silver and very THIN like a tag and the size of a quarter. Its hand engraved on the front in Old English copperplate script:

Jo-Ann L. Hall
12-30-43--1-2-44

There are some official looking numbers on the back: G-1506.

The back is also hand engraved. The numbers may coincide with a US military grave plot but what cemetery?... What century?

Plot G- Row 15- Grave 06?

 

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[intimer]

i'm pretty far away but this thing looks like a very common id tag of the 1940-60's in its material, its stamping and/or engraving, and date.

i wouldn't say it isn't hand done because the 4's are oddly different and the scrip lettering allows for the engravers 'flair'.

have you checked with the jewelers loop if the depth being equal along the length of each letter's parts. i've never engraved or done much else of any artistic nature, but it would seem with the jewelers loop one could discern between stamped and engraved.

but i could be wrong....

 

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[Bigcypresshunter]

i'm pretty far away but this thing looks like a very common id tag of the 1940-60's in its material, its stamping and/or engraving, and date.

i wouldn't say it isn't hand done because the 4's are oddly different and the scrip lettering allows for the engravers 'flair'.

have you checked with the jewelers loop if the depth being equal along the length of each letter's parts. i've never engraved or done much else of any artistic nature, but it would seem with the jewelers loop one could discern between stamped and engraved.

but i could be wrong....

Ill have to look again but with the loupe the lettering all looks hand engraved to me and anyone that looked in person said engraved, so there is no clue there to date this item because this type of hand engraving is done in the 20th century, if I understand what everyone is saying.

The numbers just look so official and must have a meaning. Im leaning toward gravesite.

I doubt its 60's the date is definitely 40's.

Nobody swam on this beach in the 1940's because it was used for bombing practice also found 10 foot deep and coral encrusted. Could be WWII related though because soldiers were stationed in Vero Beach..

There was a failed colony and fort in 1840's abandoned by 1850. Also several shipwrecks offshore...

I just dont know...

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

I wish the numbers on the back were stamped that would be a big clue, but it doesnt appear to be.

 

[Atherton]

There was a failed colony and fort in 1840's abandoned by 1850.

i would start HERE.

That script SCREAMS "Mid 1800s" to me, and early death, (especially in that area) was VERY common at that time.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

There was a failed colony and fort in 1840's abandoned by 1850.

i would start HERE.

That script SCREAMS "Mid 1800s" to me, and early death, (especially in that area) was VERY common at that time.

I checked Vero Beach history at http://www.rootsweb.com/~flindian/timeline.htm. The US Army established a post at Fort Vinton in 1842. The first settlers arrived in Indian River with promise of land if they bear arms against the Indians. But the inhabitants of this county were driven from it on account of Indian hostilities, and few of them would return. By 1850, Ft. Vinton was abandoned. Was 3 day old JoAnn L. Hall a child from this failed original Indian River colony? The 1850 census- http://ftp.rootsweb.com/pub/usgenweb/fl/stlucie/census/1850/pg0222a.txt (lost the links) -lists a Michael Hall in the US Army. I always wondered if this was some kind of official toe tag. The numbers just dont seem to fit a love token or charm but I cant find any definitive proof that this is older than 1944..




ADDED 10/17 I found a snippet I saved from the link.
The 1850 census shows a little over 100 residents, mostly U.S. Army, in Indian River. There is listed a Michael Hall from Ireland.

CENSUS YR: 1850 STATE or TERRITORY: FL COUNTY: ST LUCIE DIVISION: 18th Division
REFERENCE: Enumerated the 9th day of December 1850 by Geo. J. Zehnbauer
==============================================================
20 HALL Michael 23 M US Army Ireland
REMARKS: This dwelling used as barracks for US Army soldiers.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

An 1858 coffin tag was found by Garabaldi with a similar script so I thought I would add it to this thread for reference. http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.php/topic,357467.0.html


Something interesting in this link. http://www.thegenealogyspot.com/coffin_plates/
The coffin plates were often removed to be kept as mementos by the loved ones of the deceased. This practice started in the late 1840s and peaked in the late 19th century (1880~1899).

I think I have an 1844 coffin tag. It seems to match the script. Its engraved front and back. I think the back numbers are grave or coffin numbers. The official looking numbers seem out of place on a love token. There were no creamations at that time. There were no tourists swimming on this beach bombing area in 1944. If I could find another example of a round silver tag, with one nail hole, it would seal the deal for me.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

I think I got it! Several members have told me this is an official military grave number. Check out this WWII link and notice how all the graves are marked. http://www.quarterhorsecav.org/pg7a.htm

It could be Plot G- Row 15- Grave 06. What do you all think? I think this is a huge clue. How long has the US military been marking graves this way?

 

[creskol]

Hey BC .. You asked if I have seen a round casket plate before, and .. yes .. sort of would be my answer. Not really a casket plate, but a wooden urn from a crematorium. The number on the back would be the record number for the cremation. However, cremation did not really develop as a recorded practice in USA until 1876, when the first crematorium was built in Washington County, Pennsylvania. A second one was built in Lancaster in 1884. By the early1900's, crematories had popped up all over the place, and in 1913 the Cremation Association of America was established. With that being said, it would date your tag to 1944 rather than 1844. The stamping looks like that could be a possibility, but the engraving looks much older. Anyhow, That is about all I can tell you about my experiences with round plates. As a more modern day note: When my mother was cremated in 2000, her ashes were put into an urn that I made from a burl from a Kentucky Coffee Tree, and one disc was put in with the ashes and one was given to me.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Hey BC .. You asked if I have seen a round casket plate before, and .. yes .. sort of would be my answer. Not really a casket plate, but a wooden urn from a crematorium. The number on the back would be the record number for the cremation. However, cremation did not really develop as a recorded practice in USA until 1876, when the first crematorium was built in Washington County, Pennsylvania. A second one was built in Lancaster in 1884. By the early1900's, crematories had popped up all over the place, and in 1913 the Cremation Association of America was established. With that being said, it would date your tag to 1944 rather than 1844. The stamping looks like that could be a possibility, but the engraving looks much older. Anyhow, That is about all I can tell you about my experiences with round plates. As a more modern day note: When my mother was cremated in 2000, her ashes were put into an urn that I made from a burl from a Kentucky Coffee Tree, and one disc was put in with the ashes and one was given to me.

Thanks for posting. This has been suggested before on the original thread http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.php/topic,19394.0.html so I researched every possible cremation tag that I could find and those that have been found on the beach by members and they are all stainless steel because silver will melt in a fire. The cremation society says that a cremation burns for 2 to 3 hours at 1500 to 2000 degrees F. Dental gold and silver are non-recoverable. Most tags I have seen has the funeral home stamped on it. My tag has no stamping of any kind, both sides engraved. I spoke with a cremationist that told me this is definitely not a cremation tag. So cremation appears to be out.

I think the engraved numbers match with the US military cemetery system and thats the latest clue that fits.

Heres a few examples of cremation tags, none silver.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

I found a veterans grave locator but no match. http://gravelocator.cem.va.gov/j2ee/servlet/NGL_v1

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Another problem. I find that all babies are not given names or listed.

Im convinced G-1506 is a grave number.

 

[magjm]

I go with Crematory tag. We find them all the time on the beach, round, oblong, square, rectangle, and made of different metals. May have just a number, or creamation date or more info. Looks very similar to ones I've seen. Folks dumping ashes either don't know or don't care there is a tag inside. Sometimes there are fragments of bone, gold from teeth, or other bits of metal from jewelry that was not removed. Creamation is not an complete process. Sorry, too much info for the sqeamish. Another thought, it may have been engraved with more information and sat with the ashes on someone's shelf. Found later as part of an estate and then scattered some time after the deceased death. My brother-in-law's ashes are in a columbarium in San Francisco. A very interesting tour for that something different to visit. Building dates to 1898.
Maggie

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

I go with Crematory tag. We find them all the time on the beach, round, oblong, square, rectangle, and made of different metals. May have just a number, or creamation date or more info. Looks very similar to ones I've seen. Folks dumping ashes either don't know or don't care there is a tag inside. Sometimes there are fragments of bone, gold from teeth, or other bits of metal from jewelry that was not removed. Creamation is not an complete process. Sorry, too much info for the sqeamish. Another thought, it may have been engraved with more information and sat with the ashes on someone's shelf. Found later as part of an estate and then scattered some time after the deceased death. My brother-in-law's ashes are in a columbarium in San Francisco. A very interesting tour for that something different to visit. Building dates to 1898.
Maggie

If you have a silver cremation tag, I would love to see it. I have never seen one. I guarantee you this tag was not in a fire. I have yet to see one with a date. Another point is that if this was a modern cremation, dont you think there would be record of it somewhere? (Its either 1844 or 1944) Yes I found it on a beach but it was 10 feet deep. Show me a silver engraved cremation tag, a tag that doesnt either have a stamped phone number, address or crematory's name, or a cremation tag with a persons name, birth and death date. I have never seen these. Looking forward to any pics that you can post. Thanks for posting your opinion. .

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Ill follow any clue or advice but I just cant find a cremation tag thats engraved, silver, or has a name and birth/death dates like a coffin tag. The only similarity to a cremation tag is that it is round, has a hole and some numbers. Also I have yet to find a cremation tag with letters AND numbers, btw those that happen to match perfectly with grave number plots in a national cemetery.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Another thought, it may have been engraved with more information and sat with the ashes on someone's shelf. Found later as part of an estate and then scattered some time after the deceased death.
Maggie

I suppose. I think its more likely to be a lost momento with a grave number engraved on the back to remind the parent of the plot location. I doubt a parent would have a funeral homes cremation number engraved on a momento and I see no need to put a cremation number on a tag that cant go in the fire..

I just wanted to say thanks for the help Maggie and I hope you will be kind enough to post the pic of a silver cremation tag or one with a name and/or date that you have found. I have searched TN and other treasure hunting sites and cannot find one. Thanks again.

 

[magjm]

I had a tag engraved and placed it in the urn with my dog's ashes. I don't collect the tags although I have friends who place them in cases with their other finds. What I was referring to is that the crematory collects the ashes after the cremation, and then attaches a tag to identify the remains. I've not heard of putting a metal tag through the fire. Most toe tags are paper. At least the ones I've applied over the past 40 years were paper. Metal ID tags are placed with the ashes before releasing them to family. My brother-in-law's ashes were in a cardboard box. Surprisingly heavy. Yes, I took them home as my sister couldn't yet deal with the remains of the man she married being in a box. It was his wish to be cremated. Different crematories use different metals for tags, but I've not seen a silver/sterling tag found at a beach. If the tag you found was silver, I didn't catch it when I read the post, and if it is a crematory tag, I would imagine it is older than 1944 or privately made. However, cremation prior to the late 1800's was not popular in the US. Mourning items were popular in Victorian times and were sometimes made of silver. Yes, if privately made, why the number? I imagine, the parents would have been well-to-do, to document the death of a 3 day infant. Crematories weren't always as efficient as what we have today, and those are only as good as who operates them. I've read that the Germans sifted the ashes from the ovens to collect gold. The gold is not completely vaporized but in small molten bits that can be left with the ashes or removed prior to being released. Plus, as I said cremation isn't a complete process and only efficient if done properly. No crematorium is able to remove 100% of the ashes from the furnace, and the larger bone fragments are further pulverized after the cremation. I also like the idea of a tag for a fancy coffin. Maybe you'll never get the whole story but definitely a conversation starter.

 

[magjm]

I was thinking--I've got too much time on my hands to know as much as I do about cremation. Studied the subject when my father was considering it, and after my brother-in-law was cremated.

Seems as though the more replies, the more questions are raised.

Maggie

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Thanks Maggie. My mom was cremated. Yes the tag is silver. I spent too much time on this lol. I found it on the Treasure Coast of Florida (the cleanest beaches in the world) after 2 consecutive hurricanes stripped the beach and dunes. Its either 1944 or 1844 or even 1744 is possible.. I found 1715 shipwreck artifacts in the same hole. Two shipwrecks lie directly offshore, one 1715 Spanish, the other unknown British. One side was heavily encrusted; the other side absolutely clean, making me believe it was nailed to wood. In 1944 the beach was used as a bombing range and Navy Seal training. In 1844 a small settlement (fort) existed of 100 soldiers and colonists only to be abandoned by 1850.. A Hall is listed.

I think the reason Joann L. Hall cannot be found on record is because she may be listed simply as "Hall, Baby Girl." If anyone has the ability to search again, try it. Thanks.



ADDED: Ive never seen an official cremation tag with a name and birth/death dates. There must be a reason for this. It would be interesting to know why.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

What I was referring to is that the crematory collects the ashes after the cremation, and then attaches a tag to identify the remains. I've not heard of putting a metal tag through the fire.

Im not trying to be disagreeable but I was told different by a mortician and 2 cremationists. http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.php/topic,144190.msg1031382.html#msg1031382

Re: Crematory Tag
Reply To This Topic #3 Posted Mar 03, 2008, 10:38:37 AM
Quote chrisplay2004
Cool find, I was a mortician for 14 years. The tag usually gets cremated with ther person and in some cases was put into the bag of cremains. The number was to make sure the right cremains were given to the right people.

 

[magjm]

Hmmmm,

That's interesting. None of the tags I've seen look like they have been through a fire. If the heat will melt
orthopedic implants, wouldn't it melt the tag? Some tags look like rectangle aluminum. Sort of a stamped strip that looks like it was cut from a machine. Others have been round or square. I think they were all stamped, not engraved. Kind of off topic I guess. Maybe we need a Crematory employee. One of my MD friends is a former mortician. I'll ask what he knows. We actually have a Crematorium in my small town also. I try to not say never about anything. You never know.

Maggie

Re: Crematory Tag
Reply To This Topic #3 Posted Mar 03, 2008, 10:38:37 AM
Quote chrisplay2004
Cool find, I was a mortician for 14 years. The tag usually gets cremated with ther person and in some cases was put into the bag of cremains. The number was to make sure the right cremains were given to the right people.