She was only 3 days old.

[Bigcypresshunter]

I posted this here last year, but have yet to positively ID. We have some new members and I could get some new thoughts. It is silver and very THIN like a tag and the size of a quarter. Its hand engraved on the front in Old English copperplate script:

Jo-Ann L. Hall
12-30-43--1-2-44

There are some official looking numbers on the back: G-1506.

The back is also hand engraved. The numbers may coincide with a US military grave plot but what cemetery?... What century?

Plot G- Row 15- Grave 06?

 

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[Breezie]

I've been doing genealogy for about 30 years. Anytime you researching genealogy, you have to take the 'general' date (or info) meaning give or take several years. Remember all the census were hand written and mistakes were made all the time. I have all the census records for my ggrandfather's family, and NONE are totally correct. Either the names are misspelled, the dates of birth are wrong, number of siblings are wrong, etc. If you are looking for 'exactness' in genealogy during that time, you are probably not going to find it. Breezie

 

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[Bigcypresshunter]

Sorry I overlooked that the year was'nt exact. I guess its time for bed. But I do think its a good lead to follow, since the census shows she did not live to be one year old.

Thanks I appreciate it.

 

[Breezie]

Sorry I overlooked that the year was'nt exact. I guess its time for bed. But I do think its a good lead to follow, since the census shows she did not live to be one year old.

Thanks I appreciate it.

I agree; I think that is the best info to follow. I'm not a member of ancestry.com now, but generally join in the summer months when I have more time because sales are the slowest. I think Bramblefind is a member. Breezie

 

[Juanmoretime]

I believe you could discount the 1800's you keep referring to as metal this thin near salt water would not look like this if there was anything left at all. Just my two cents....

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

I believe you could discount the 1800's you keep referring to as metal this thin near salt water would not look like this if there was anything left at all. Just my two cents....

I dont think thats necessarily true because thin 1715 silver artifacts and older are found on this beach all the time. If its caught in the surf, thats different. It depends. This was heavily encrusted on one side only (thats why its scratched so badly) telling me it was fastened to something wood most likely or layed against something for years. Under the sand will also preserve it. It was 10 feet deep.

I keep mentioning the thinness of this item because the first thing I thought was some kinda tag. Kinda thin I thought for a medallion but I could be wrong. One side was black the other heavily encrusted with a coral like substance.

Heres a 1715 cob I found after an earlier hurricane..

 

[IronSpike]

That's a nice cob BCH Love the details left in design

I think the silver pendant is old.

 

[Bramblefind]

Yes I have Ancestry and it looks like they switched their searching back to the way I like it I can look things up for you.

Issues -

The Federal Census available only goes to 1930.

The Florida Census is from 1945 so if i child died in early1944 most probably would not be on that census.

"Joann Hall" is not as common but "Ann Hall" has MANY hits.

Here is the 1945 Florida Census record for the Joann Hall born in 1945. This does not mean she died in 1945 only that she was not yet 1 year old when the census was taken. The left column in the age section is for males and the right is for females.

** Note her mother is named "Annie"

** Also possible is occasionally when a child dies as an infant the parents might use the name again for their next child

 

[Skrimpy]

...Someone found a JoeAnn Hall 1944 Florida Death Index. Maybe a mistake on the engraving? Could a child die in the mid-20th century United States and there be no record of it?

This is probably your girl. Get that index number from florida and use it to pull the death cert from the DOH. The mistake in the spelling is going to be with the death index. Not your token. I also don't think it was made out of a coin but I would guess a quarter was used as a template to make it. It's too thin and it appears from one of your photos that it is just a little bit smaller (i.e.; A line used to trace it could make up the difference). Also, it wasn't mandated that records of birth and death be kept until 1880 (federally) and more rural communities even into the 30s and 40s really didn't follow the rules completely....especially if the birth and death were so close together. Sometimes they just buried people in the back yard with no official record. Now, if this token does mark some sort of grave (G1505 or whatever that number was) there has to be an official record somewhere ((i.e.; A burial permit necessitating a death certificate) and my sense is that JoeAnn and Jo-Ann are going to end up being the same individual...unless of course we are all wrong and we are talking 1844 and not 1944.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

...Someone found a JoeAnn Hall 1944 Florida Death Index. Maybe a mistake on the engraving? Could a child die in the mid-20th century United States and there be no record of it?

This is probably your girl. Get that index number from florida and use it to pull the death cert from the DOH. The mistake in the spelling is going to be with the death index. Not your token. I also don't think it was made out of a coin but I would guess a quarter was used as a template to make it. It's too thin and it appears from one of your photos that it is just a little bit smaller (i.e.; A line used to trace it could make up the difference). Also, it wasn't mandated that records of birth and death be kept until 1880 (federally) and more rural communities even into the 30s and 40s really didn't follow the rules completely....especially if the birth and death were so close together. Sometimes they just buried people in the back yard with no official record. Now, if this token does mark some sort of grave (G1505 or whatever that number was) there has to be an official record somewhere ((i.e.; A burial permit necessitating a death certificate) and my sense is that JoeAnn and Jo-Ann are going to end up being the same individual...unless of course we are all wrong and we are talking 1844 and not 1944.

I looked back through the old thread, Skrimpy, and my emails and here is what I got.

In November 2005, I received a nice e-mail from the Supervisor of the Genealogy Dept. at the Indian River Co. Main Library. She said several Hall families were living there in 1944. She has an index to all burials and obituaries in the county. Joann is not in these indexes.
She looked in the Florida Death Index for 1944 and there was a Joeann Hall, black female, who died in 1944 in Palm Beach County, 50 miles south.
She also checked the digitized and keyword accessible Vero Press Journal, but nothing came up.
She said there is a possibility of her being part of the Indian River Colony which arrived in 1843 and left in 1849.
She spent much time herself and invited me to come to her library and research for clues.




Here is an email from Dec 2005:

Subject: FW: Joeann Hall Dod 1944
Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 03:52:42 -0800 (PST)

I found the same information that Pam Cooper of the Indian River
County Library found. On the Florida Death index Joeann (yes, it's
spelled Joeann) Hall, a black female, died 1944, in Palm Beach
County. There is no date of birth listed, but death certificates can
be ordered from the Florida Department of Vital Statistics in
Jacksonville for $5 (without cause of death).

 

[Mr Ripley]

I am an ancestry.com member, I will take a crack at this. The Clyde Hall family from Suannee Co. was white I believe. I think the Joeann Hall on the 1944 death list was black, but I think she is the girl. There were plenty of black Hall families in Palm Beach Co. at the time. I searched other deaths in 1944 in the Florida database and the date of birth was on none. But I bet it is on the hard copy, including mom and dad's names.

I don't know if anyone mentioned this yet, but I will share a little story. I know of a baby that was born in the late thirties and died a few days after birth. The local doctor signed the child's death certificate, but knowing this particular family was very poor, he left them to bury the baby on the farm to avoid burial expenses.

Perhaps the medal is a substitute for a stone, and perhaps she was dropped into the sea...

Mr R

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

I am an ancestry.com member, I will take a crack at this. The Clyde Hall family from Suannee Co. was white I believe. I think the Joeann Hall on the 1944 death list was black, but I think she is the girl. There were plenty of black Hall families in Palm Beach Co. at the time. I searched other deaths in 1944 in the Florida database and the date of birth was on none. But I bet it is on the hard copy, including mom and dad's names.

I don't know if anyone mentioned this yet, but I will share a little story. I know of a baby that was born in the late thirties and died a few days after birth. The local doctor signed the child's death certificate, but knowing this particular family was very poor, he left them to bury the baby on the farm to avoid burial expenses.

Perhaps the medal is a substitute for a stone, and perhaps she was dropped into the sea...

Mr R

Thanks. I wish I could match the engraved number on the back, G-1506, to something. Looking with a loupe, it seems to me that someone went to a lot of hand engraving trouble to make this number look square and official.

Maybe Ill order the Death Certificate for Joeann from the Florida Department of Vital Statistics in
Jacksonville for $5. Do you think the birth date will be on it?

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Yes I have Ancestry and it looks like they switched their searching back to the way I like it I can look things up for you.

Issues -

The Federal Census available only goes to 1930.

The Florida Census is from 1945 so if i child died in early1944 most probably would not be on that census.

"Joann Hall" is not as common but "Ann Hall" has MANY hits.

Here is the 1945 Florida Census record for the Joann Hall born in 1945. This does not mean she died in 1945 only that she was not yet 1 year old when the census was taken. The left column in the age section is for males and the right is for females.

** Note her mother is named "Annie"

** Also possible is occasionally when a child dies as an infant the parents might use the name again for their next child

Thanks Bramblefind and everyone else searching for me. Thanks for explaining the issues.. Im beginning to wonder if she could be from out of state or another country because it was found under the beach off international shipping lanes.

Any hits on Ann L. Hall? Maybe shes the WWII sweetheart stationed in Vero still alive today?

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Old thread here. I still have not been able to positively ID or pin down the century of my curious token. The date is clearly 43-44. Thanks to Chukers who found a copper plate with the same name (Hall). I recognized this as the same script. Thanks also to Lucas who posted the copperplate script alphabet.

Do you think this is enough proof to place this token in the 18th or 19th century, or not?


ADDED: Was this engraving script used in 1944?

 

[Lucas]

I think it is 20th century. I have seen plenty of WW2 era charms with the same engraving style. Also not sure that date form was used in the 1840's?

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

I think it is 20th century. I have seen plenty of WW2 era charms with the same engraving style. Also not sure that date form was used in the 1840's?

OK thanks. I thought I had discovered a useful clue. There was some WWII activity on the treasure coast so its likely... i must be tired...

According to the script, the first letter is a J not a T so that helps some.

 

[Lucas]

I guess I have spent way too much time with this stuff. {NERD}

Many letters have either ascenders or descenders (part goes below the "line"). 'T' wouldn't have a descender, but 'J' almost always does, so definitely Jo-Ann and not To Ann.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

I guess I have spent way too much time with this stuff. {NERD}

Many letters have either ascenders or descenders (part goes below the "line"). 'T' wouldn't have a descender, but 'J' almost always does, so definitely Jo-Ann and not To Ann.

Yes I agree Jo-Ann L. Hall. I thought you had it solved with the copperplate script but Im just getting tired I guess up too long on the computer....

 

[Lucas]

@ 12:47 A.M.? Guess I better quit too.

 

[wwace]

The red markings are from the old Windows Paint program.

Some members looking at the back numbers, on another thread, tell me that it is modern machine stamped. Under magnification it looks engraved to me. What do yall think on the letters G-1506...STAMPED or ENGRAVED?

I will go into work tomorrow and check on tags , take some pictures and post my findings....but I'm seeing....Lo hull....the top of the a in hall isn't closed off leading me to believe that it says hull...kinda looks like a period after Lo. so maybe that's an abbreviation of a middle name?...but from what i do know the tags are stamped out on the back....like yours is ....and engraved on the front ....like yours is.

sure like to see the tag pics.

not stamped but punched with a single letter/ numeral punch set

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

not stamped but punched with a single letter/ numeral punch set

Thanks for commenting but the numbers are not stamped or punched. With a jewelers loupe, it can be seen that they are engraved. Under magnification, you can clearly see the different strokes ending in a point. Everyone that has seen this in person agreed that the numbers are also engraved. I tried to show that in reply #70 and again in reply # 98.

It may not show in this pic but notice the point on the top of the 5. There are also points on the top and base of the 1. It took eight tiny strokes to engrave the 0. Maybe if someone can locate the numbers script it could help.