Scuttled Nazi treasure submarine

[ECS]

BDD,it would only be an exercise in the hypothetical.You know like claiming that four men left the U-853,when the official record states that all hands went down with the U-boat?

 

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[Bigdogdad]

The official US Navy records. Do you think they would know about a secret mission? With all the stories in almost all the books and magazines all agreeing there was very possibly a treasure on the U-853, where do you suppose the treasure is? Hundreds of people have dove on this sub looking for the treasure and so far no one claims to have found it. In fact it is a very popular dive spot. I know you don't believe ANYTHING I post on ANY thread. Can you tell me and everyone else reading this that you KNOW FOR A FACT that what I am saying is not true? Why do you seem to have a vendetta against me? Your line of constantly saying that I don't know what I am talking about on this thread and all the others goes against the very spirit of T-Net. You should be ashamed.

 

[maipenrai]

My son is also my favorite, but I would never show an 8 year old, the hiding place of something as valuable as a s..t load of diamonds. What would be the object of showing him? You must really believe the ability of an 8 year old, to keep secrets.

 

[Bigdogdad]

maipenrai-The father crashed his private plane and died. If he had told no one, then what? The object of telling the son? Let's see? Hey, maybe if he were to die in an accident. Funny as it may sound the 8 year old kept the secret until he was almost 30. He never even told his brothers. What you would do is totally irelevant.

 

[Salvor6]

Mayrenpai would:

A. Forget or

B. Tell all his friends before he reaches age 10.

 

[maipenrai]

Wrong! I would have told all my friends by the next day! And asked for them to keep it a secrete.

 

[barney]

German 88mm shells are huge. Some were hidden at the lighthouse site and some were hidden in New Jersey and some were hidden in Florida.

German 88mm (3.46 inches) munitions are not that big - I've recovered several off wrecks when I first started diving as the brass cartridge case cleans up nice. Take out all the cordite and the case could certainly hold a helluva lot of diamonds - one could hold double-digit pounds worth.
Are you saying the U-853 operated off Florida and hid diamond-stuffed 88mm cases on the same cruise as they supposedly did off NJ and NY?
Ignoring the fact that the entire crew was reported lost on this conventional war patrol, the fact the U-853 was not equipped with an 88mm gun, and other "minor" issues...let's ignore that for now.
Can you offer a reasonable or logical reason why a German crew would come ashore on Long Island (not exactly sparsely populated and absent local vessel traffic making it extremely high risk) and bury diamond-stuffed ammo next to the Montauk Lighthouse ("The Germans originally buried them by the parking lot near the lighthouse.") -- where there was an adjacent U.S. Naval Armed Guard anti-submarine observation tower during WWII? Does that make any sense whatsoever strategically?
I am not denying that u-boats carried precious cargo in some instances during WWII. I am just saying this story makes very little to absolutely no sense.
Mike

 

[old man]

German 88mm (3.46 inches) munitions are not that big - I've recovered several off wrecks when I first started diving as the brass cartridge case cleans up nice. Take out all the cordite and the case could certainly hold a helluva lot of diamonds - one could hold double-digit pounds worth.
Are you saying the U-853 operated off Florida and hid diamond-stuffed 88mm cases on the same cruise as they supposedly did off NJ and NY?
Ignoring the fact that the entire crew was reported lost on this conventional war patrol, the fact the U-853 was not equipped with an 88mm gun, and other "minor" issues...let's ignore that for now.
Can you offer a reasonable or logical reason why a German crew would come ashore on Long Island (not exactly sparsely populated and absent local vessel traffic making it extremely high risk) and bury diamond-stuffed ammo next to the Montauk Lighthouse ("The Germans originally buried them by the parking lot near the lighthouse.") -- where there was an adjacent U.S. Naval Armed Guard anti-submarine observation tower during WWII? Does that make any sense whatsoever strategically?
I am not denying that u-boats carried precious cargo in some instances during WWII. I am just saying this story makes very little to absolutely no sense.
Mike

I agree. His story keeps changing locations too. In several posts it is at the Montauk Lighthouse on Long Island NY, then in a post in the cache section the location is New Jersey. I think if anyone would have been told about these diamonds it would have been the father's " WIFE ", not an 8 year old son. Maybe Big Dog should talk to his friends Mother, since the Father died in a plane crash. Then he'll know whether to look in New York or New Jersey.
Bigdogdad

Mar 2012
667
49 times
Cache Hunting

Is the property for sale? Why do you call it blood money and why would you not want any of it? I have a similar situation for a spot with diamonds in New Jersey that I feel the same about. I may change my mind and go after them some day. Would you be interested in helping someone other than the present owners find the barrels on the Little Hocking property? If you are convinced they are there it is possible that someone other than the present owners could dig them up.​

 

[Bigdogdad]

barney-88mm shells are huge. I never said the Germans hid any diamonds in Florida or New Jersey. They hid them by the lighthouse on Long Island. I also stated the shells were loaded onto the sub while it was in Germany. The deck gun size on this sub is irelevant. I don't know or care why the Germans chose to land at the lighthouse. My guess is that it is easy to find at night. There is a road that leads into the park that anyone planning to dig up the diamonds could easily use. The diamonds were buried to be dug up by high-ranking officials that were fleeing Germany at the end of the war.

How do you know that it was a "conventional war patrol"? Isn't this thread about Nazi treasure submarines at the end of WWII" As a matter of fact the sinking of this sub is supposed to have been the last action of WWII.

You say that this story makes very little to no sense? You are entitled to your opinion but that it all it is, your opinion.

old man-My story never changed locations. It may be hard for you all to follow. I knew the "wife" very well. I will say again to make it clear-THERE IS MORE TO THIS STORY THAN I AM WILLING TO PUT ON T-NET. Does that make anything clearer? As far as knowing where to look, I know the locations, I am just not that interested in these diamonds. I have my reasons.

Look at the picture. Imagine digging up 12-14 of these filled with diamonds, gold, silver and currency. Would you throw ALL of them in your trunk if you weren't sure what you were going to do with them all. That is why some of them were rehid at the park.

It is obvious that you all are going to refuse to accept that my story on here could be true. I don't know why I even bother telling you.

 

[barney]

I never said the Germans hid any diamonds in Florida or New Jersey.

You most certainly stated that some were hidden by the lighthouse, some in New Jersey, and some in Florida. Please refer to post #139 in this thread.
I am sorry, but landing at Montauk Lighthouse - where there was a anti-submarine lookout station makes no sense. And with a seaplane base behind the light in Fort Pond Bay. And with Camp Hero, with 16-inch guns, immediately to the west? The whole end of Long Island -- including the lighthouse -- in Montauk was controlled by the U.S. military at this time. Not my opinion - that is fact. My opinion is that a theoretical covert landing at Montauk Light in April/May 1945 makes about as much sense as paddling up the Potomac River and burying their supposed stash at the base of the Washington Monument. Read up on Montauk in WWII and maybe you will see how far-fetched this story really is. How many people and how many trips do you think it took to carry up 12-14 88mm shells *up the bluff* and bury them next to the lighthouse -- all without being spotted by anyone?
Do you think the lighthouse was still lit in May 1945 ("easy to find at night")?
The deck gun size is not irrelevant as it would raise a lot of suspicion and questions from people loading worthless munitions on a submarine that was already extremely space limited.
High-ranking officials fleeing Germany at the end of the war? Officials in the Kriegsmarine, or other parts of the military? Because you are looking at multiple levels of bureacracy, albeit Nazi/facist bureacracy, and bribes to get your booty on the sub and to wherever you want to bury it on an unofficial mission (i.e., not sanctioned by the Führer or Dönitz).
Yes, anyone fleeing Germany at the end of the war...you know, to avoid capture by the advancing Allies and avoid potential trial (if they committed war crimes)...the United States would be the *top* destination versus a more neutralish backwater country (e.g., somewhere in South America) where you could still potentially access more conventional financial resources. Makes lots of sense.
I know it was a conventional war patrol - anti-shipping along the U.S. East Coast - because that's what the KTB and official war records state. Sorry, that holds more credibility for me compared to rumors and speculation.
No, this was not the last action of WWII - VJ Day did not occur until August 1945.
The U-853 left on her last patrol at the end of February, well before the Allies crossed the Rhine. So one would have had to start planning a diamond smuggling plan likely towards the end of 1944 and before the conclusion of the Battle of the Bulge.

Isn't this thread about Nazi treasure submarines at the end of WWII"

Yes, but I was not under the impression this was a fantasy or historical fiction forum?

Cheers,
Mike

 

[H-2 CHARLIE]

Pics or it never happened . O the guy down the blk. told me .

 

[Bigdogdad]

barney-I am starting to get the feeling you may not believe my story. Yes, I stated that some of the diamonds were hidden in New Jersey and Florida. Did I say they were put there by the Germans? You do know that the U-853 was sunk not far from Montauk Point, correct? Why was it there? Just to sink a fairly unimportant ship?

I think your comparison with the story of hiding the shells at the Washington monument just shows that you are a smart-alec. If you know your way around Montauk as you pretend that you do you would know for one that the beach in 1945 was way larger than it is now. You would also know that there were paths leading down from the visitors center and why would anyone feel the need to climb "up the bluff"?

No one said they were buried next to the lighthouse, they were buried next to the parking lot. As far as whether the lighthouse was lit on May 5 1945 I have no idea and it really is not that important.

As far as deck gun size. yes it is irelevant. If the officers wanted to smuggle these shells on board without them being seen it would not be that hard to do. For instance putting a couple in a duffle bag. Give me a break!

As far as high-ranking officials wanting to come to the US I am sure there were plenty that wanted to if they felt they could get away with it. Having money hidden and waiting for you would certainly help.

As far as whether it was a conventional war patrol, this thread is about Nazi treasure submarines. Do you think their "official" war records say "U-boat # whatever was offically filled with treasure to be buried at (blank) location? Do you believe all records? You are starting to sound a lot like ECS. Are you two tag-teaming me?

As far as whether it was the last action of WWII, I read it was the last action of some sort, I may be wrong on this point but it is irelevant to the story.

I don't know how, when, where, or by whom that this mission was planned.

Do you think that if something can't be found in the "official" records then it could not have happened? If so you are very naive.

So you think my story is fantasy or fiction? Why don't you just call me a liar?

Questions for you. Why does this story bother you so much? Since we are talking facts here can you state that it is impossible for my story to be true? Were you there when all of this may have happened? Maybe I am biased but I don't see where any of it is that hard to accept as possibly happening more or less just as I have said.

The bottom line is this. Almost all the stories in all the books talk about a possible treasure on the U-853. A guy even testified that he sealed up shells to be put on this sub. My friends dad found these diamonds. He hid them in various places. He showed one of his son's the location at Montauk. He was very wealthy. He owned private planes, lots of real estate and much more. He crashed his plane and died. The diamonds are very likely where they were placed many years before. Get over it. One last time-I WILL NOT REVEAL ALL THE INFORMATION THAT I KNOW ABOUT THIS.

H-2 CHARLIE-Pics or it never happened? What an absolutely stupid comment.

To anyone that is tired of all this your solution is simple-Stay off this thread and/or don't read my posts.

Sincerely,
Tim

 

[old man]

Bigdog, We finally agree on something. This thread is about sunken German Submarines. It is not about dowsing or buried treasure. Factual or not . Cache Stories belong in another section of TNET. Sunken German Submarines are what this thread is about.

 

[Bigdogdad]

old man moderator-The U-853 is a sunken German submarine, but your right, I am done. BTW-Who said ANYTHING about dowsing? Good luck to you all.

 

[barney]

barney-I am starting to get the feeling you may not believe my story. Yes, I stated that some of the diamonds were hidden in New Jersey and Florida. Did I say they were put there by the Germans? You do know that the U-853 was sunk not far from Montauk Point, correct? Why was it there? Just to sink a fairly unimportant ship?

Yes, I do not believe your story.
The way your post read implied the diamond-filled shells were hidden by the Germans.
Yes, I know my geography and know where the wreck site of the U-853 is located. The reason it was there was due to its orders upon leaving Norway -- the U-853 was directed to operate in the Gulf of Maine off Boston, with alternative sites off Halifax or New York. This was due to the concentration of shipping in those areas - that's how u-boats operated. They could not afford to expend precious fuel running down targets all over the East Coast but positioned themselves in strategic areas where geography funneled shipping traffic. Every Allied ship potentially carrying supplies, oil, munitions, or troops to Europe - or even petroleum products or other supplies intended for domestic use - was most definitely not "unimportant." All of these could disrupt the Allied war effort. This assignment would most definitely be viewed as more important -- and more believable -- than a supposed mission to bury diamond-filled shells on a beach tightly patrolled and controlled by the U.S. military.

I think your comparison with the story of hiding the shells at the Washington monument just shows that you are a smart-alec.

Thanks. I think the analogy also shows how unlikely your story is.

As far as deck gun size. yes it is irelevant. If the officers wanted to smuggle these shells on board without them being seen it would not be that hard to do. For instance putting a couple in a duffle bag. Give me a break!

You did not say a couple, you said 12-14 shells. Where would one hide 12-14 useless (and "huge" in your description) 88 mm rounds - in their spacious and luxurious state rooms onboard the U-853? (<-- that was sarcasm)
These issues are not irrelevant.

As far as whether it was a conventional war patrol, this thread is about Nazi treasure submarines. Do you think their "official" war records say "U-boat # whatever was offically filled with treasure to be buried at (blank) location? Do you believe all records? You are starting to sound a lot like ECS. Are you two tag-teaming me?

Do you think that if something can't be found in the "official" records then it could not have happened? If so you are very naive.

So, because something is not included in the official records means that is must be true? Convenient. Just don't believe any facts that go against your story and all is good.

I am not saying that if something is not in the records that it could not have happened, but I am pretty sure if something as amazing as what your story claims actually went down, there would be more info from various sources that could be presented as facts, as there had to be others in the know to pull off something like this.

So you think my story is fantasy or fiction? Why don't you just call me a liar?

Yes, I think your story is fantasy. I would not call you a liar as that is rude. You seem to believe what you are offering, but I just fail to see any credibility in the offered information. Of course, you could apparently go out and recover these shells and diamonds and present your finds, and I would be the first to eat crow and applaud your success.

Questions for you. Why does this story bother you so much? Since we are talking facts here can you state that it is impossible for my story to be true? Were you there when all of this may have happened? Maybe I am biased but I don't see where any of it is that hard to accept as possibly happening more or less just as I have said.

I have trouble with the story as it runs contrary to all available historical information and common sense. And as one who researches maritime history, writes articles, and does presentations to the public, I have grown tired of all these tall tales (my opinion). I have been asked about the ghost u-boats floating around the Gulf of Mexico with mercury, about the sunken u-boat off every single inlet along the U.S. East Coast (must be hundreds of them out there off the U.S.), and all the other nonsense like the Bermuda Triangle.
These ultra-fantastic u-boat stories takes away from what I already consider an amazing tale - that these tiny, unbearably humid, uncomfortable, hot submarines stuffed with men would cross the Atlantic using a tiny compass (used on an all metal tube!), which took weeks to do, and try to wreak havoc on their enemy against horrendous odds...by this time in the war these guys knew they were likely going to their death and most of these guys were volunteers!
The bottom line is unadulterated history is fascinating just as it is.

The bottom line is this. Almost all the stories in all the books talk about a possible treasure on the U-853. A guy even testified that he sealed up shells to be put on this sub.

That is not true - some books mention a possible treasure. Basically, it is one tale that has spread like a virus. The story of the supposed Nuremberg testimony was presented in a Rhode Island newspaper in 1969. The actual Nuremberg testimony is a matter of public record, and one should be able to find the actual information in the transcripts. Has it? FWIW, the newspaper actually reported it was travelers cheques (not diamonds) that were welded inside the shells.
Actual salvage efforts on the U-853 began in 1953 by Mr. Bonifay. He revealed his information indicated the u-boat carried $1 million in mercury contained in stainless steel flasks that was destined for Japan in trade for tin. He could not explain why the U-853 was off New England if it was supposed to be headed to Japan (Northwest Passage perhaps?).
So you see, there are definitely stories about potential treasure on the U-853, many of them different, but all (IMHO based on available evidence) without merit.

To anyone that is tired of all this your solution is simple-Stay off this thread and/or don't read my posts.

I think you were the one who stated you did not care what others thought, so I am surprised you are spending all this effort to refute my critique.

Cheers,
Mike

 

[Bigdogdad]

barney-Kind of hard for me to argue with an expert such as yourself. I certainly don't claim to know all the facts. I only know what I know. My friend's dad had the diamonds and they came from 88mm shells from a submarine off of New York. Let's just say you have won this arguement. There is no point in me going tit-for-tat over each point whether I feel you are wrong or not.

As I have repeatedly said I have more information involving all this that is too sensitive to share on a public forum. If this sounds like a cop-out so be it. I have NOTHING to gain on here by continuing.

If or when I decide to pursue this treasure I may decide to post the results on here but probably not. It would not be in my best interests. Of course pictures or not you will still not believe it. Thanks for all your information. Good luck with whatever it is you are trying to accomplish.

 

[barney]

Under the right circumstances I will try to recover them. It has to be done legally as that is the only way I would be interested.

If or when I decide to pursue this treasure I may decide to post the results on here but probably not. It would not be in my best interests. Of course pictures or not you will still not believe it.

I am not an expert. I am sure a real expert could soundly dissect and disprove your story much more effectively and definitively.

Tim, if you pursue and find the diamonds and are able to document it, I would definitely believe it. Sorry if you are so offended over my skepticism, but as a scientist I tend to lean towards credible data and documentation.

I don't understand your statement that you would probably not post the results. According to your earlier post you said you would only do this legally. If that is true, I am sure many would hear about it as you would need to work with the Montauk Historical Society and the state of New York, not to mention the U.S. and German governments and lots of random lawyers. Your discovery would likely make a big splash in the news.

Until then, or until you can provide any other supporting information other than friend's stories, I will remain skeptical.

Happy New Year!

Cheers,
Mike

 

[Bigdogdad]

barney-You have not disproven my story in the least bit. You have made some good points, but that is all. I will try to address your main points.

Point 1. There are no official records of the treasure being on board the sub when it was sunk. Counterpoint-Although there are no records according to the US Navy there are certainly many stories relating to treasure being put on board this sub. You can call them rumors if you want. The treasure was not on board the sub when it was sunk as it had already been taken ashore.

Point 2. Choosing to land and hide the treasure at Montauk point would have been a terrible idea. Counterpoint-Of course it was a bad idea. The sub was sunk in the process and the diamonds were recovered by my friend's dad. As far as bad ideas and mistakes the Germans made many of them and consequently lost the war.

Point 3. The treasure would have had to have been loaded onto the sub well before the sub was destroyed. Counterpoint-No one on board would have known how or when the mission and war would actually end. These were desperate men in desperate times. Only a certain amount of people involved would have known about the 88mm shells.

Point 4. This story is just too far-fetched for a scientist such as yourself to accept without actually seeing the diamonds and 88mm shells yourself. Counterpoint-It only seems far-fetched to some people. Obviously all the people that have written books, magazine articles and newspaper articles have no problem accepting the fact that the U-853 may have had treasure on board. I have already had offers of help to recover the diamonds. I guess we are just not as "smart as you.

barney-Don't kid yourself. You have not swayed my belief in this treasure in the least and you probably have not convinced the other readers of this thread that the U-853 did not have treasure on board before it was destroyed.

old man and other like him-I am sorry you have no control over your keyboard and computer mouse and are forced to read all this. If barney want to keep arguing I will be glad to start a thread on the cached forum. As a matter of fact I have brought the subject of the sub up on that forum more than once. ECS the troublemaker is the one that lured me to the shipwreck forum.

 

[ECS]

Troublemaker? I believe the facts may cause you trouble-but these may support some of your tale about high ranking Nazi's shipping out their ill gotten gain.
ODESSA is an acronym for Organization Der Ehemaligen SS-Angehorigen(organization of former SS members)which aided the escape of Nazi's wanted for war crimes.
Famed Nazi hunter,Simon Wiesenthal discovered that this escape apparatus had been created in August 1944,when high ranking Nazis realized that Germany was going to lose the war.Stolen wealth was first smuggled out of occupied Europe to safe havens in Switzerland and several countries (Argentina,Brazil,Chile)in South America.The Nazi fugitives later followed by the B-B route-Bremen,Germany,through Austria,to the seaport of Bari,Italy.
An alternate route was the "Monastery Route",operated by clerics of the Catholic Church,while an affiliated network known as THE SPINNE (spider) created false papers and necessary documents.
I seriously doubt that the US was ever considered to be a safe haven for either diamonds or Nazi fugitives,but the stolen wealth was on the move during Aug 1944 onward.
As has been noted,this is a SHIPWRECK site,if you want to continue this discussion,lets go back to CACHE HUNTING.

 

[Bigdogdad]

I am sure there were many Germans that had relatives in the US. Not all of the soldiers were bad people and the US has always been a place for people to escape to. Thanks for the info.