Royal Navy buttons and buckle?

[Newfiehunter]

Hi all!

I'm primarily a coin hunter and not a relic hunter, so my knowledge of relics is limited. However, I have found these items and wondering if they are Royal Navy and if so, from what time period. I think you can tell from the crowns on the buttons. Any information on these items would be appreciated.

One more thing! These items are beginning to disintegrate as you can tell with the buckle....How do I stop the corrosion? I haven't really cleaned them as they have been in my box of miscellaneous items for about a year or so...Please help as I am beginning to appreciate these items more...Thanks!

By the way, I found these relics at one site...

 

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[Iron Patch]

Hey Ironpatch

Newfoundland was NOT a Canadian province in the late 1800`s. It was still a British Colony. Newfoundland didn`t join Canada until 1949. Still thanks for the info. At least I know the origin of the button...Thanks again,..

Yes, but if the unit was in Canada, it was close, so it makes a little more sense you would find one. As I said I find buttons all the time that makes no sense when you look at the history, but they are here. The bottom line is it's not possible the button is old because they were not made that way then, and the most likely ID is 62nd Wiltshire. I can't prove that because I can't find a pic, but it's what I have always thought that button is, and will continue to until someone shows me otherwise. Even though it's not really old it still has a story to tell, and I'm sure there's lots to read about the Wiltshire Regiment in the late 1800s or so.

 

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[Iron Patch]

Thanks I.P..........I dont know buttons!I was going off a faint pic,and it looked like one a buddy just dug here,but it has a Birdcage shank and dates to the Crimean War Period.Thanks my friend!

Some are very close... it's those damn Brits. using the French scroll that is the problem!

 

[Newfiehunter]

But Ironpatch

You are incorrect on your history...Read the following history of the 62nd Wiltshire in Canada...They left Canada in 1864 and served in the ATLANTIC REGION (where I live) during the War of 1812. So your late 1800`s assumption may not be right because they had already left Canada...The area I searched was occupied during the War of 1812. So maybe the button was lost during that time period.

62nd (Wiltshire) Regiment of Foot Soldiers' documents
Formed as the 2nd Battalion of 4th Regiment of Foot, and designated the 62nd Regiment in 1758. The 62nd was dispatched to Quebec in May 1776 and was among the regiments to surrender at Saratoga [Oct 1777]. In 1813 the regiment went from the south of France to America, and was employed on the American Lakes during the war of 1814-15 and in the Atlantic region. The regiment returned to Europe too late for Waterloo. The 62nd went to Nova Scotia in 1857 and served in North America until 1864, when it came home from Quebec.
Links- The Wiltshire Regiment (62nd Foot)1830-1847

I could be wrong here...but the facts and history correspond...

 

[Iron Patch]

But Ironpatch

You are incorrect on your history...Read the following history of the 62nd Wiltshire in Canada...They left Canada in 1864 and served in the ATLANTIC REGION (where I live) during the War of 1812. So your late 1800`s assumption may not be right because they had already left Canada...The area I searched was occupied during the War of 1812. So maybe the button was lost during that time period.

62nd (Wiltshire) Regiment of Foot Soldiers' documents
Formed as the 2nd Battalion of 4th Regiment of Foot, and designated the 62nd Regiment in 1758. The 62nd was dispatched to Quebec in May 1776 and was among the regiments to surrender at Saratoga [Oct 1777]. In 1813 the regiment went from the south of France to America, and was employed on the American Lakes during the war of 1814-15 and in the Atlantic region. The regiment returned to Europe too late for Waterloo. The 62nd went to Nova Scotia in 1857 and served in North America until 1864, when it came home from Quebec.
Links- The Wiltshire Regiment (62nd Foot)1830-1847

I could be wrong here...but the facts and history correspond...

Again, no matter what the history is it is impossible that button dates to the War of 1812. It just doesn't and couldn't have been lost then, and no matter how much it might make sense on paper, buttons were not made that way back then. There's not even the smallest space to debate this.

It could possibly date to the mid. 1800s and made it to NFLD because they were in Nova Scotia, and stayed in the Atlantic Provinces until 1864. The fact the unit was never in Newfoundland doesn't mean anything when it comes to digging a button. If your button actually dates later then 1864 maybe it's because a soldier liked Atlantic Canada and went back 20 or 30 years later. There's lots of possibilities.

62nd (Wiltshire) Regiment of Foot Soldiers' documents
Formed as the 2nd Battalion of 4th Regiment of Foot, and designated the 62nd Regiment in 1758. The 62nd was dispatched to Quebec in May 1776 and was among the regiments to surrender at Saratoga [Oct 1777]. In 1813 the regiment went from the south of France to America, and was employed on the American Lakes during the war of 1814-15 and in the Atlantic region. The regiment returned to Europe too late for Waterloo. The 62nd went to Nova Scotia in 1857 and served in North America until 1864, when it came home from Quebec.
Links- The Wiltshire Regiment (62nd Foot)1830-1847

http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~crossroads/regiments/regiments-infantry-2.html

 

[Newfiehunter]

Ironpatch...

I stand corrected.

The Regiment was in NFLD in 1762 when France and England fought for control of the Island (read that elswhere)...You are right regarding all the possibilities and I admit defeat since I further checked out the loops and the loop doesn`t correspond to the time period. Oh well! lol! However it could date to the mid 1800`s.

You were right about a silver buckle that I recovered and you are right now. Like I said, my experience with relics is very limited. But at least because of your knowledge (and others), I have gained more of an understanding on military buttons and how to preserve them. Thanks!

 

[Iron Patch]

Ironpatch...

I stand corrected.

The Regiment was in NFLD in 1762 when France and England fought for control of the Island (read that elswhere)...You are right regarding all the possibilities and I admit defeat since I further checked out the loops and the loop doesn`t correspond to the time period. Oh well! lol! However it could date to the mid 1800`s.

You were right about a silver buckle that I recovered and you are right now. Like I said, my experience with relics is very limited. But at least because of your knowledge (and others), I have gained more of an understanding on military buttons and how to preserve them. Thanks!

Being interested is how you learn! I'm pretty dumb when it comes to most stuff so if I can catch on to the relic thing it's not too hard. You just have to stay involved.

 

[TheCannonballGuy]

Newfiehunter wrote:
> According to Cannonball guy the 62 button a French button called a "curleycue".

For clarification... please check what I actually wrote. I did not say the button is called a curlycue. I said buttons with a number encircled by a "curlycue".

"Curlycue" is just a descriptive term for that design's shape. I do not know the correct name for the "curlycue" design on French Army Regiment buttons. Iron Patch called it "the French Scroll." Regardless of what it is called, it is a distinctive characteristic of French Army Regiment buttons, all the way from the 1700s to the start of the 20th-century. I'll attach a photo showing a 1-piece brass French Army 7th Regiment button that was dug at an American Revolutionary War site. You can view info about it on Ebay, here: http://www.ebay.com/itm/DUG-REV-WAR...816?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item43ab7979d8

> Is that a 62nd regiment button?

Yes. I have to say publicly, I learned something new about European military buttons today. I'd never heard of a British Army regiment having a button whose front looks exactly like the typical 1700s-to-1900s French Army Regiment buttons. I'm amazed ...and curious to know why the heck a British regiment would so very closely copy the design of its hated historical rival. (Until World War One, British and French soldiers had probably killed more of each other than they did of any other nation's soldiers.)

Newfiedigger, your all-brass two-piece (hollow front and back) 62nd Regiment button dates from no earlier than the 1830s.

 

[Newfiehunter]

Cannonballguy

I have seen the error of my ways!! lol! I stand corrected! Thanks.

 

[kuger]

Hmmmm,not knowing the time frames on the other buttons,and the possibility the Regimental button could date to the late 1800's,that would fit my presumption of the period on the buckle

 

[Newfiehunter]

Hey Kuger

Here are just a couple of pics of two of the buttons.

The button with the crown I thought could identify the ruling monarch, thus indicating the time period. The backmark cannot be determined.

The other button with the crown and GR inscribed underneath, I thought could be King George of the Georgian era (which one?). The backmark on the button is Jones (maker) and Dublin...(Dublin, Ireland)?

 

[kuger]

I dont have a book on British backmarks........maybe our over the pond friends can chime in?

 

[TheCannonballGuy]

The one-piece BRASS British button with a raised-lettering backmark dates from around-1810 to the 1840s. (Please note, I specified British -- French Military 1-piece brass buttons with a raised-lettering backmark continued to be manfactured until the start of the 20th-century.)

The GR on your 1-piece "Jones / Dublin" may or may not be a Georgius Rex (King George) reference. For example, it may mean Grenadier Regiment.) If it does mean Georgius Rex... and the button is 1810-ish to 1840s... King George III's reign ended in 1820. His son King George IV reigned from 1820 to 1830. So, it may refer to either of those two British kings.

The McGuinn-&-Bazelon book on American Military button backmarks lists many British and French backmarks ...but unfortunately that book does not list a "Jones / Dublin" backmark.

I did a quick websearch for you on British button backmarks. The only site the quick search found was a website called Diana's Buttons.
http://www.angelfire.com/wa/dianaspage/BritishButtonBackmarks.html
Unfortunately, her listings contain several definite errors of time-dating (being "off" by 20 years or more), so I would not put a great deal of reliance on what she says.

 

[kuger]

The one-piece BRASS British button with a raised-lettering backmark dates from around-1810 to the 1840s. (Please note, I specified British -- French Military 1-piece brass buttons with a raised-lettering backmark continued to be manfactured until the start of the 20th-century.)

The GR on your 1-piece "Jones / Dublin" may or may not be a Georgius Rex (King George) reference. For example, it may mean Grenadier Regiment.) If it does mean Georgius Rex... and the button is 1810-ish to 1840s... King George III's reign ended in 1820. His son King George IV reigned from 1820 to 1830. So, it may refer to either of those two British kings.

The McGuinn-&-Bazelon book on American Military button backmarks lists many British and French backmarks ...but unfortunately that book does not list a "Jones / Dublin" backmark.

I did a quick websearch for you on British button backmarks. The only site the quick search found was a website called Diana's Buttons.
http://www.angelfire.com/wa/dianaspage/BritishButtonBackmarks.html
Unfortunately, her listings contain several definite errors of time-dating (being "off" by 20 years or more), so I would not put a great deal of reliance on what she says.

I better go "study",my Bazelton book a little closer!!!
Well,with those dates....that kind of shoots my thought on the buckle tongue

 

[TheCannonballGuy]

Kuger wrote:
> Well,with those dates....that kind of shoots my thought on the buckle tongue.

Not neccesarily. Newfiehunter's buckle-tongue appears to be from a British Royal Navy buckle. As of today, we don't have dates for the Royal Navy buttons found by Newfiehunter. When we do learn their time-period, the info could be relevant for accurately dating the buckle-tongue.

Earlier in this discussion, regarding what IronPatch says is a British 62nd Infantry Regiment button, he said "The 62nd went to Nova Scotia in 1857 and served in North America until 1864, when it came home from Quebec." I checked Wikipedia, which confirms IronPatch's statement that the 62nd Regiment was stationed in Canada from 1857 to 1864. I believe the buckle-tongue dates from the middle-1800s (approximately 1825-1875). But as I said, the Royal Navy buttons' dating is more relevant to dating the Royal Navy buckle-tongue. I'm very much looking forward to seeing photos of the buttons' backs, and whatever backmarks Newfiehunter can manage to read on them.

 

[Iron Patch]

I don't think the buckle is related to the buttons. The flat navy is probably too early, and the other anchor button too late. That being said, I have seen these type of buckles several times but have never seen a good reference saying exactly what they are. Being Navy or Marines probably makes the most sense, but you can't discount it being from a shipping company or a few other possibilities. There is a lot of different anchor buttons that are dug and not all are Navy or Marines, so obviously that would be the case for buckles as well. I would like to know the proper ID for it too.

 

[kuger]

CBG,I dont see how we can say the Buckle has any definite tie to the British Navy?If it had a crown over the anchor(which there is a tongue with that)I would say yes.......I also dont see it dating anywhere near 1825,although I realize you were merely providing a "window"

 

[Newfiehunter]

Ok..Hopefully these buttons and the backs will help resolve the debate. There is one point I would like to make. These buttons and buckle were found at a site where there was a military presence in the late 1700's and during the War of 1812. There were cannon placed there during that time. I also found coins dated 1812 and earlier there as well.

All of these buttons are looped. The back of the last button...says England....That's all I have to show..Hope this resolves everything...

 

[Iron Patch]

There's only two buttons that date to the early portion of the 1800s, and they are the Anchor and crown Navy, and the GR button. The rest are no older than late 1800s, and some the early side of the 1900s.

 

[Newfiehunter]

CannonballGuy...

I originally made the statement

Earlier in this discussion, regarding what IronPatch says is a British 62nd Infantry Regiment button, he said "The 62nd went to Nova Scotia in 1857 and served in North America until 1864, when it came home from Quebec." I checked Wikipedia, which confirms IronPatch's statement that the 62nd Regiment was stationed in Canada from 1857 to 1864. I believe the buckle-tongue dates from the middle-1800s (approximately 1825-1875). But as I said, the Royal Navy buttons' dating is more relevant to dating the Royal Navy buckle-tongue. I'm very much looking forward to seeing photos of the buttons' backs, and whatever backmarks Newfiehunter can manage to read on them.

I am confused as to why there is a wide range of buttons. The buckle may not be Royal Navy as Ironpatch suggested..Guess I'll have to go back there and see what else is there. As a coin hunter I passed up some signals perhaps that should have been dug. Maybe that will solve the mystery..

 

[Iron Patch]

CannonballGuy...



I am confused as to why there is a wide range of buttons. Guess I'll have to go back there and see what else is there. As a coin hunter I passed up some signals perhaps that should have been dug. Maybe that will solve the mystery..

Because generation after generation could have lived on the same land.

"As a coin hunter I passed up some signals perhaps that should have been dug"

Put it this way... most of the best finds I have dug since I started detecting were NOT coin signals.... and guess what, many were coins. You are seriously missing out not digging all targets that sound off above iron at an old site, and even some iron finds are pretty decent too. But at minimum dig everything above iron.