Royal Navy buttons and buckle?

[Newfiehunter]

Hi all!

I'm primarily a coin hunter and not a relic hunter, so my knowledge of relics is limited. However, I have found these items and wondering if they are Royal Navy and if so, from what time period. I think you can tell from the crowns on the buttons. Any information on these items would be appreciated.

One more thing! These items are beginning to disintegrate as you can tell with the buckle....How do I stop the corrosion? I haven't really cleaned them as they have been in my box of miscellaneous items for about a year or so...Please help as I am beginning to appreciate these items more...Thanks!

By the way, I found these relics at one site...

 

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[Newfiehunter]

Good advice Iron patch. I dig all pulltab signals since some large cents come in as the tabs, as do some buttons.

 

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[Iron Patch]

Good advice Iron patch. I dig all pulltab signals since some large cents come in as the tabs, as do some buttons.

You have to dig the ones well under pulltab too. There's so much you would miss at a good old site. Trust me, if I could snap my fingers and put you on one of the good sites we've hunted here and pointed out how many keepers read under pulltab you would change your ways on the spot. How many good diggable signals you'd leave behind would be crazy. I like people like you a lot, and a couple of fields I've done very well at which I was beat to no question had people passing up the lower sounds.

You talk about the French being there... well do you know not digging anything below pulltab you will miss most of the French "silver" the Acadians used. That's because it's billon (low grade silver) and can read very low on a detector. That's only one example of many things you can miss by only chasing higher signals.

 

[TheCannonballGuy]

Iron Patch wrote:
> There's only two buttons that date to the early portion of the 1800s, and they are
> the Anchor and crown Navy, and the GR button. The rest are no older than late 1800s,
> and some the early side of the 1900s.

I have to disagree. Newfiehunter's Royal Artillery button has what we civil war button collectors call a "floating" loop in a deep bowl-shaped depression. I more specifically call it a "floating horseshoe" loop because the loop's legs are quite separate from each other, instead of coming to a junction. The "floating horseshoe" loop in a deep bowl-shaped depression is a characteristic of some British-made buttons imported through the yankee navy blockade for the Confederate Army. The most frequently-seen backmark on those "floating loop" buttons is "P. Tait & Co. / Limerick". Thus, British-made buttons with the "floating horseshoe" loop in a deep bowl-shaped depression can date back at least to 1861/65, and probably a few years earlier.

According to the McGuinn-&-Bazelon book on button backmarks, this peculiar-shaped back and loop was patented in Britain by William Pring. Here's a photo showing one of the British-made Confederate buttons with the distinctive "floating horsehoe" in a deep bowl-shaped depression, and its P. Tait & Co. / Limerick" backmark.

Also according to the McGuinn-&-Bazelon book, the firm of P. Tait & Co. was formed in 1851 and named the "Official Supplier of Uniforms" to the British Army.

 

[TheCannonballGuy]

For doubters that the buttons with a British Crown atop an anchor are British/Canadian Navy (or at least, British Commonwealth naval forces), here's a photo showing a 20th-century Montreal Water Police button, from the waterburybutton.com website.

If I recall correctly, a button which is extremely similar to the British-Crown-atop-an-anchor button found by Newfiehunter is shown on a website which shows many Military butons found at Crimean War (1850s) battlesites. I bookmarked that website last year, but when I clicked on the link to it today, the result was a message saying the website is "temporarily unavailable."

I will continue to do research on that button and the others found by Newfiehunter. Stay tuned.

 

[timekiller]

The crown over anchore button sure looks like this one to me..................... If the back ground does not have lines then it be the second pic.


1st-- RN Cap't / Commander - 1901
Fake - Line background never
existed. Possible on civilian
Jacket to avoid WWI
"White Feather" harassment.
Style In use 1901 - 1952



2nd---RN Capt / Commander - 1901

 

[Orbitz]

Hi all!

I'm primarily a coin hunter and not a relic hunter, so my knowledge of relics is limited. However, I have found these items and wondering if they are Royal Navy and if so, from what time period. I think you can tell from the crowns on the buttons. Any information on these items would be appreciated.

One more thing! These items are beginning to disintegrate as you can tell with the buckle....How do I stop the corrosion? I haven't really cleaned them as they have been in my box of miscellaneous items for about a year or so...Please help as I am beginning to appreciate these items more...Thanks!

By the way, I found these relics at one site...

Nice finds, I also found 2 buttons yesterday, one looks a lot like one of your's
HH

 

[timekiller]

Hi all!

I'm primarily a coin hunter and not a relic hunter, so my knowledge of relics is limited. However, I have found these items and wondering if they are Royal Navy and if so, from what time period. I think you can tell from the crowns on the buttons. Any information on these items would be appreciated.

One more thing! These items are beginning to disintegrate as you can tell with the buckle....How do I stop the corrosion? I haven't really cleaned them as they have been in my box of miscellaneous items for about a year or so...Please help as I am beginning to appreciate these items more...Thanks!

By the way, I found these relics at one site...

Nice finds, I also found 2 buttons yesterday, one looks a lot like one of your's
HH

Without even seeing the back of your buttons that style crown (the more rounded/dome shaped) tend to be early 1900's to post ww2.

 

[TheCannonballGuy]

Timekiller, in case you missed seeing Orbitz's other post of those two buttons in the What-Is-It forum ...upon my request, he posted photos which show their back is the self-shank ironback type, which means they are definitely 20th-century civilian "Fashion" buttons.

 

[timekiller]

Timekiller, in case you missed seeing Orbitz's other post of those two buttons in the What-Is-It forum ...upon my request, he posted photos which show their back is the self-shank ironback type, which means they are definitely 20th-century civilian "Fashion" buttons.

Did not see, but agree.Bed time for me......Goodnight.
Take Care,
Pete,

 

[Iron Patch]

Iron Patch wrote:
> There's only two buttons that date to the early portion of the 1800s, and they are
> the Anchor and crown Navy, and the GR button. The rest are no older than late 1800s,
> and some the early side of the 1900s.

I have to disagree. Newfiehunter's Royal Artillery button has what we civil war button collectors call a "floating" loop in a deep bowl-shaped depression. I more specifically call it a "floating horseshoe" loop because the loop's legs are quite separate from each other, instead of coming to a junction. The "floating horseshoe" loop in a deep bowl-shaped depression is a characteristic of some British-made buttons imported through the yankee navy blockade for the Confederate Army. The most frequently-seen backmark on those "floating loop" buttons is "P. Tait & Co. / Limerick". Thus, British-made buttons with the "floating horseshoe" loop in a deep bowl-shaped depression can date back at least to 1861/65, and probably a few years earlier.

According to the McGuinn-&-Bazelon book on button backmarks, this peculiar-shaped back and loop was patented in Britain by William Pring. Here's a photo showing one of the British-made Confederate buttons with the distinctive "floating horsehoe" in a deep bowl-shaped depression, and its P. Tait & Co. / Limerick" backmark.

Also according to the McGuinn-&-Bazelon book, the firm of P. Tait & Co. was formed in 1851 and named the "Official Supplier of Uniforms" to the British Army.

I'm not exactly sure what you're disagreeing with, but his artillery button/that button type, most likely dates from the late 1800s well into the 1900s, and the crown not the back would determine the era best. (with the exception of a backmark if any have them)

Here's a link to one, and now that I'm paying a little closer attention his may have the Victorian crown and date to that era. I've probably owned at least 100 of these and never thought much about them because I don't have much interest in buttons about 100 years old. But learning something is well over do so I am game.

http://dandycollectibles.com/products/badges/ww1-ww2-british-army-royal-artillery-uniform-button/

 

[Iron Patch]

For doubters that the buttons with a British Crown atop an anchor are British/Canadian Navy (or at least, British Commonwealth naval forces), here's a photo showing a 20th-century Montreal Water Police button, from the waterburybutton.com website.

If I recall correctly, a button which is extremely similar to the British-Crown-atop-an-anchor button found by Newfiehunter is shown on a website which shows many Military butons found at Crimean War (1850s) battlesites. I bookmarked that website last year, but when I clicked on the link to it today, the result was a message saying the website is "temporarily unavailable."

I will continue to do research on that button and the others found by Newfiehunter. Stay tuned.

Captain and Commanders 1825.

 

[TheCannonballGuy]

As promised, I've been doing the additional research.

I found a fabulous website for identifying "historical" British Army & Navy buttons this morning. (Some other people here at TreasureNet might already know about it, but it's totally new to me.)

It contains a stunning array of button photos, identifications, and dates for them. Going to take me a while to meticulously examine each of the hundreds of photos for "precise matching" with Newfiehunter's buttons.

That being said, at this point it seems the British-Crown-above-a-cannon is a Royal Artillery / Horse Artillery button from 1856-to-1873. On the 1874-1901 version, the cannon's barrel is horizontal (not tilted) and the cannon's wheel sits on "wavy" ground, not flat ground. Caution-note: I've found at least one dating error in the website's dating of Royal Artillery buttons. On one of them which has three "stacked" cannons, the website says it is 1855-through-1873 ...but its backmark ("Charles Jennens / London") dates only from 1807-through-1828. (The Jennens backmark dating info is from the McGuinn-&-bazelon book on backmarks.)

British Army buttons: http://www.colchestertreasurehunting.co.uk/militarynamedregiments.htm
British Navy buttons: http://www.colchestertreasurehunting.co.uk/navy buttons.htm

 

[kuger]

I am still curious about the tongue.There is a stamped brass version with the near exact Anchor that does date to the mid 1850's yet has no affiliation with the British.Newfie,could I get a picture of the back of that tongue?Mainly the bridge beltloop/center disc attachment?

 

[Newfiehunter]

Hey Kuger

Here is more of a close-up of the buckle, front and back. It is hollow on the back. Perhaps it isn't Royal Navy. I just assumed with the anchor, it was. There is one more thing which I omitted. There were also American coins mixed in with these buttons and buckle and British coins....There was an 1864 2 cents and 3 Indian heads in one hole (bad shape though). Perhaps I should go back this spring and investigate the area further. Newfoundland traded with the US during that time. So could the buckle be possibly American?

 

[kuger]

yep,exact match to the one I had.....normally a "later",style I will say.....given the one I had came from Australia,and the ones IronPatch speaks of....I would lean toward British,but the other British Navy Buckles I have seen,had a Crown over the Anchor....possibly it was for a lowly sailor?

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Long thread. I dont know if this link was posted . http://www.colchestertreasurehunting.co.uk/navy buttons.htm


or this http://collectionboutonsempire.e-monsite.com/

 

[Newfiehunter]

Thanks for the link Cypresshunter! Should be a great help indentifying these buttons! Finding the origins and dating buttons isn't as easy as it would seem.

 

[Iron Patch]

Thanks for the link Cypresshunter! Should be a great help indentifying these buttons! Finding the origins and dating buttons isn't as easy as it would seem.

I have the reference material to better ID them than that page, at least the early ones which seems to be a good part of what is on there.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

IP is the goto guy in Canada. I havent read the entire thread just thought it might help. I think I see now that CBG already posted the Navy button link.

 

[Iron Patch]

IP is the goto guy in Canada.

Well not really, I just had a very friendly Australian send me some good material several years back. Funny thing is a lot of the little questions I've probably had over the years, or say little things that crossed my mind might be a better way to put it, could have been answered by me reaching two feet up. Early navy is what I have covered well. (just buttons though)