Royal Navy buttons and buckle?

[Newfiehunter]

Hi all!

I'm primarily a coin hunter and not a relic hunter, so my knowledge of relics is limited. However, I have found these items and wondering if they are Royal Navy and if so, from what time period. I think you can tell from the crowns on the buttons. Any information on these items would be appreciated.

One more thing! These items are beginning to disintegrate as you can tell with the buckle....How do I stop the corrosion? I haven't really cleaned them as they have been in my box of miscellaneous items for about a year or so...Please help as I am beginning to appreciate these items more...Thanks!

By the way, I found these relics at one site...

 

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[kuger]

Very interesting Cast Brass Tongue(Tongue to a two piece buckle)I have only seen a couple other examples and actually purchased one of them,which came from the Gold Fields of Australia.I never could find much info on it,but judging from the style of the Beltloop bridge attachment to the center disc,it likely dated to the Late 19th Century?I dont know for sure?Nice piece!

......before I get a head of myself..is it "thin"..tin like?There is another stamped brass version..............

 

[TheCannonballGuy]

Newfiehunter wrote:

> I have found these items and wondering if they are Royal Navy and if so, from what time period.

Some of them are British Royal Navy buttons, and others are British Army buttons. For example, the one with a cannon on the front is Royal Artillery, and the one with a hunting-horn is Infantry. The one with a number inside an encircling "curlycue" is a French Army Infantry Regiment button. The buttons you found appear to date anywhere from the mid-1800s to the "early" 1900s. Such buttons usually have a maker's-mark on their back (which we call a "backmark"). Please examine them closely and tell us what the backmark on each of them says. (A common example is "Firmin & Sons / London".)

> These items are beginning to disintegrate as you can tell with the buckle....How do I stop the corrosion?

Speaking as a multi-decade digger, collector, and dealer of excavated Historical uniform buttons:
These buttons appear to be made of brass. The brass itself is not deteriorating. What is scaling off of them is the oxidation-&-dirt encrustation which accumulated during their 100-years-or-so of burial in the ground.

Button-diggers/collectors use various methods to gently remove the dirt encrustation. The method I prefer is to soak the exacavated buttons BRIEFLY (1 to 2 minutes) in lemon juice or DILUTED household ammonia. Then I very gently scrub them with a toothbrush ...followed by a thorough rinse under running water, of course. I know that other diggers here prefer a somewhat longer soak in warm peroxide.

"Proper" (non-destructive) cleaning will make them easier to accurately identify and determine the time-period of each of them. If you are nervous about cleaning them, I suggest you practice the cleaning methods on some similarly encrusted but less-valuable excavated brass buttons.

 

[kuger]

.....just to add to CBG's advice.......do not wash that buckle with water,a light dry brushing should bring it what you are going to get

 

[Newfiehunter]

Hey there Cannonball Guy and Kuger!

I just checked for the backmarks on the buttons....The buttons are still encrusted with dirt so first I will have to test the lemon juice method on some old copper coins that were found in the same area but were in rough shape. I can see a some letters but the back of the buttons but they are in rough shape.

As for the buckle...I did dip it in water after I found it. Thought it was safe to do. It looked so good at first, then after the oxidation or dirt began to peel away and the green patina formed on it.

Will get back to you on those backmarks on the buttons. Your information was very valuable. Thanks!

 

[Iron Patch]

I would not remove the green, I'd coat them with some Renaissance wax which dries and leaves the item close to looking the same. If you use something more harsh and strip the color, it will be black or brown and not near as nice. I highly doubt you'd have any problems after wax, but if so, you could do a thin coat (paint on and wipe) of satin finish waterbased clear urethane and they'll definitely not deteriorate any further. But like I said on brass I think wax will be plenty enough. Way too many people kill the color on their finds whether it be water or something else... and the spots showing already are most likely do to the water washing away the green.

A peroxide soak, and just laying flat to dry (no water) keeps a lot of the color. You could do this before you wax, or you could just clean them by gently using a toothpick to scrape the dirt. I don't see those finds as being in any serious trouble, certainly not like iron or pewter.


I have used lemon juice for 10 years with great results but would not on these finds. Definitely not the buckle anyway, the others I'd need better pics.

 

[kuger]

Yep,thats why I said no water....sometimes that happens,but not all is lost,just no more and brush (lightly)the scale,and it may further "green",if it doesnt bury it for a while,and the bare sots should blend back in.Is it "heavy",or is it thin...stamped?

 

[kuger]

I also see a 62 Reg. French button?

 

[Iron Patch]

I also see a 62 Reg. French button?

British.

My guess the buckle is cast. Ironhorse dug a similar one many years ago.

 

[Newfiehunter]

According to Cannonball guy the 62 button a French button called a "curleycue". Is that a 62nd regiment button? Newfoundland was a British colony and the French was expelled by the British in 1762, so how could this button end up here if there was no French presence after that date unless the button is dated to that time period? Just curious....

 

[Iron Patch]

According to Cannonball guy it is a French button. Newfoundland was a British colony and the French was expelled by the British in 1762, so how could this button end up here if there was no French presence after that date unless the button is dated to that time period? Just curious....

Let's see the back. Looks like mid. to late 1800s British 62nd Wiltshire Regiment. Actually...I don't really even need to see that back.... if it is a 2 piece button, has a regular loop shank, and a British makers mark... it's 62nd Wiltshire.

"With the end of the Crimean War, the 62nd returned to its task of policing the British Empire. During its last quarter century as an independent regiment, the 62nd would serve in Canada, Ireland, India, as part of Aden garrison"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wiltshire_Regiment



I'm not familiar with French buttons having numbers that thick, and do believe I actually owned the same button before. If it has a birdcage type loop, then all i said goes out the window.

 

[Newfiehunter]

Kuger

The Anchor is heavy stamped on the buckle not thin......to answer your question...

Ironpatch..

You could be right about it being an English button...

On the back of the 62 regiment button...all I can barely make out is the word "Patent" on the bottom....There is another word but only can make out the letter e. So it could be an English button after all...If it is cleaned, perhaps the other word could be identified...Have to determine the best way to clean it without doing much more damage..

 

[Iron Patch]

Kuger

The Anchor is heavy stamped on the buckle not thin......to answer your question...

Ironpatch..

You could be right about it being an English button...

On the back of the 62 regiment button...all I can make out is the word "Patent" on the bottom....There is another word but only can make out the letter e. So it could be an English button after all...

If it's 2 piece and has a regular loop like the others it's British.

 

[Iron Patch]

According to Cannonball guy the 62 button a French button called a "curleycue". Is that a 62nd regiment button? Newfoundland was a British colony and the French was expelled by the British in 1762, so how could this button end up here if there was no French presence after that date unless the button is dated to that time period? Just curious....

Just to answer your questions, when it comes to detecting anything seems to be possible, so never count it out just because the history isn't a good match. But in this case the button most definitively dates much later. An early British 62nd would have a bone back, and probably didn't even exist until a little after 1762, and the only French buttons that I know of which date that early are the French Marines - a plain faced domed button.

 

[Newfiehunter]

Ironpatch....

You are right!! It is a 62nd Wiltshire Regiment button...It has the same loops and I just discovered the 62 Wiltshire Regiment was stationed here in Newfoundland during the late 1700`s and during the War of 1812!! Thanks..Would have never known that! Great help and thanks to everyone for your input. If anyone else has more information on these items...feel free to add anything else!! I am beginning to appreciate relics more...You guys are a great wealth of information!!

 

[Iron Patch]

Ironpatch....

You are right!! It is a 62nd Wiltshire Regiment button...It has the same loops and I just discovered the 62 Wiltshire Regiment was stationed here in Newfoundland during the late 1700`s and during the War of 1812!! Thanks..Would have never known that! Great help and thanks to everyone for your input. If anyone else has more information on these items...feel free to add anything else!! I am beginning to appreciate relics more...

Well I could still be right it's 62nd Wiltshire, but unfortunately your button does not date that early and the time line is just a coincidence. I have dug one from that early period, and will post it below. Your button definitely dates well into the 1800s, there's no question about that.

 

[Newfiehunter]

Ironpatch

Here is the pics of the front and back of the 62 Wiltshire button...Almost exactly like yours but the condition is not as good!

Tell me what you think.

 

[Iron Patch]

Ironpatch

Here is the pics of the front and back of the 62 Wiltshire button...Almost exactly like yours but the condition is not as good!

Tell me what you think.

Yes, it doesn't change anything. Mine is a 1 piece button, yours a 2 piece which dates much later. The link I posted above says the 62nd were in Canada in the late 1800s so chances are that's why it ended up for you to find. I have found many military buttons from regiments that didn't serve here, some never even seen service in North America.

 

[kuger]

Thanks I.P..........I dont know buttons!I was going off a faint pic,and it looked like one a buddy just dug here,but it has a Birdcage shank and dates to the Crimean War Period.Thanks my friend!

 

[Newfiehunter]

Hey Ironpatch

Newfoundland was NOT a Canadian province in the late 1800`s. It was still a British Colony. I might add was Englands oldest Colony. Newfoundland didn`t join Canada until 1949. Still thanks for the info. At least I know the origin of the button..