Rock Engraved Treasure signs by the Peralta group,in the Superstitions

[lamar]

Dear azstomper;
Although your unsolicited advice in this matter is greatly appreciated, perhaps it might behoove you to remain on the sidelines during this debate, my friend. Gollum knows EXACTLY what he is doing and as such, he is handling himself quite admirably and keeping this discussion on the course which he wishes for it to be pointing in.

Unlike others, who seem to despair in the fact that there are some who simply can not believe that which has not happened, Gollum realizes that is a treasure trove worth of valuable information which can be obtained by continuing with this discussion. His efforts in this regard are laudable, his methods sound and his techniques without peer.

He can take the contents of this debate and apply the knowledge he has gathered from it and use it in the field as both research material and background filler. This is a HUGE help and only serves to assist him in achieving his goals. What Gollum and myself are doing is exploring variables, my friend. It works like this:

When trying to reconstruct a perfect history from imperfect documentation, one must first explore many avenues (or variables). First, Gollum presents a likely avenue, I come along and shut it down and he then proceeds to open another avenue, and then I shut that one one down, etc, etc. He does this in the hopes that he might open an avenue which I can not shut down and THAT is the avenue which he will explore further, as the avenues which I've closed will not yield that which he is seeking.

Anybody can deny the existence of something, my friend, yet not everyone can deny the existence of something and have the background material to prove their reasonings. This is where I become a valuable assest in the quest. While it's nice to have a host of supporters gathered round you, they are utterly worthless in the quest, whatever that quest happens to be.

While staunchy supporters provide a community service and are a great boost to ones' ego, as a collective think tank, like minds only hinder the search. It's only from sources such as myself that one can gather research material and insights into future projects, as it's impossible to open new avenues of thought when everyone around you is being supportive and agreeing with every one of your proposed theories.

Gollum realizes that my knowledge of the inner workings of the Roman Catholic church, both as an eccelestical organization and the Orders residing within that organization, both historical and modern, along with my general knowledge of the colonization of the Americas by the Europeans, and my ability to translate both the Latin and Spanish languages, and my willingness to share what I know, are vastly more valuable than a group of people stating "Yeah Gollum, you are on the right track now! " and "Keep an open mind!" and "If you search long enough, you will find what you are looking for!".

Therefore, unless you have something constructive to add to this discussion, I might suggest a demeanor consisting of silent observance until you do have something constructive to add. In this manner you very likely will become enlightened into a great many things that you were previously unaware of.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

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[Leones Corazon]

Lamar,

Felt no pressing need to read the entire post.
It always ends the same. A game of historical
what we have on paper quote for quote.
I applaud your depth of knowledge on the
subject of the church....i just wish you might
take the time to open your mind and dance upon
the edge a bit more...you maybe shocked by
what you might learn. It might be easy to sit
upon your throne of knowledge and dismiss
what we see as geoglyphs and or anthropomorphic
faces at every turn....but for the layman like
myself who stares it in the face on a reoccuring
basis...i have to keep my mind open and ask
myself a few questions. Who walked the deserts
of the southwest before the history books began....
and how did the spanish be it castilian or jesuit have
the knowledge to follow their trails.....

So forgive me for reading between the lines and labeling
this a classic case of "You can lead a horse to water...
but making him drink is an entirely different subject".

 

[gollum]

Lamar,

Thanks for the compliments, and much the of same to you. Although, you haven't quite "shut down" as you call it, every one of my arguments. There are still some unanswered questions.

The Mafia analogy is not exactly wrong either (although I am not trying to equate the Jesuits with the Mafia). I use that because if you ask the Mafia Members they will tell you it doesn't exist, just the same as if you ask the Jesuits about their mining activities, they don't exist either.

This is to everybody here; notice the way Lamar has very carefully avoided the subject of Jesuit involvement in the slave trade every time I bring it up. The Jesuits have done their best not to draw attention to that part of their history. I would venture to say that all but the most avid historians know absolutely nothing about that subject, yet, the Jesuits were some of the largest slave holders in the New World. There is an ample paper trail for this. Why? Simple, because owning slaves was perfectly legal at the time. In fact, the Ignatius Loyola thought that slavery was the best way to protect the converts. There was no need to try and hide anything.

Jesuit involvement in mining, however, was highly illegal. Letters to Rome, and indeed, other Missions, and between cities, were easily intercepted. If a rider were killed by Indians, and a letter mentioning a mining operation were found and delivered to a King's Representative, that would surely mean reprisals against the order. THAT is why, in 1662, one of the very important rules given to the Order in Nueva Espana by the Visitors General for the whole Province, and by the Provincials for the Missions, was:

On page 69, is regulation #17 and it reads as follows:

Inasmuch as possible Ours will avoid writing letters to Ours complaning about the laity. If a letter has to be written, let it be so done that, even if lost or opened, the person about whom the letter was written could not understand it. The same caution is to be observed when writing the Provincial about things that must be dealt with secretly because experience has shown the contrary practice creates grave inconveniences.

Here is the most important rule ever written if you happen to be a researcher of Jesuit Treasure Stories. This rule basically states that any subject of a nature that could cause the Order embarrassment or harm should be written in a code of some sort (even if lost or opened, the person about whom the letter was written could not understand it). I am saying that if slavery would have been illegal at the time, and the Jesuits were slave trading, I am quite certain that Lamar and I might be having the same arguments about slavery, because the Order would have encoded EVERY letter written on the subject. That is why I kept saying that there is no REAL paper trail on Jesuit Mining. There is one, but you have to look a little deeper to find it.

What that rule says to any Jesuit Treasure Hunter is that you should read every Jesuit letter VERY CAREFULLY. There are likely many that are written in code. Now, Lamar may try and play this off as one of those Jesuit New World Order Conspiracy Theories, but a logical person sees this is not the case. It is simply following the rules given to the Order.

Best-Mike

 

[lamar]

Dear gollum;
Yes, there seemed to be one mission, in North America, somewhere along the East coat, if memory serves, which may have had African slaves for a period of time. I skirt the topic because I feel that it has no bearing on the subject of our current discussion and also because I am very poorly versed in this particular event in time. My main fortay happens to be the Spanish colonization of the New World, not the colonization of North America, although there are many times that the two overlap and intertwine. During those instances I am up to par, whereas events which occurred purely in North America have not been studied by me. I am sorry for my seemingly unwillingness to discuss this topic with you, however I do so only because I am uneducated in that arena. I am not ashamed of what the Jesuits may or may not have done in the past, my friend as I am unaffliated with the Society of Jesus or any other religious order or fraternity within the Roman Catholic church.

As for the *secret* letters, yes that regulation was true, however it does not mean quite what some might think it means. A *secret* language was used in which no one outside the confines of the Roman Catholic church could understand and the the letters were written in such a way as to be meaningless to all except for people who had recieved a higher education. The *secret* language was none other than Vulgate Latin, my friend! Up until that regulation existed, virtually all letters of correspondence were penned in the Spanish of the day, after the regulation came into being, Latin was the norm.

This regulation eventually evolved into a custom and as such, all offical documents are still penned in Vulgate Latin, not because of any pressing requirement to do so, rather because it's become customary over time. This is why in order to become an accomplished researcher into the period, it is so important to have a good grasp of both classical Spanish and Vulgate Latin, my friend. As with all things, there is a reason for everything.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[gollum]

FIRST:

You are sorely mistaken my friend. Jesuit involvement in the Slave Trade in the New World was quite extensive. These quotes are not my research, but a friend's. They tell you everything you need to know about Jesuits and the New World Slave Trade:

Jesuit Slaveholding
Margaret M. Olsen, in her book, “Slavery and Salvation in Colonial Cartagena de Indias (Gainesville: University Press of Florida, 2004, Pp. xii, 189, $59.95), provides a study of a single early modern text, the Jesuit Alonso de Sandoval’s De Instauranda Aethiopum salute, a treatise on religious conversion published in Seville in 1627. Father de Sandoval lived 1577 to 1652. Ms. Olsen wrote that: The Jesuit order was a major player in the slave trade, and “by the time of their expulsion in 1767 … were the largest … slaveholders in the Americas” (page 14) Jesuit haciendas were also some of the most successful, and in Sandoval’s time the order’s college of Cartagena managed several, including one called La Ceiba, where 111 slaves were working at the time of the expulsion. [When Jesuit Alonso de Sandoval wrote his book, “De instauranda Aethiopum salute”], Cartagena was the main port of entry for African slaves into the Americas. It is estimated that, in the last half of the sixteenth century, 15,445 slaves passed through Cartagena. See http://www.historycoopereative.org/...justtop&url=heep://www.historycooperative.org

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Jesuit Report on Jesuit Slave Holding and/or Slave Dealing
In a book titled, “Rudo Ensayo: a Description of Sonora and Arizona in 1764, written by Jesuit priest Juan Nentvig, S.J., he stated on page 85, “It was at Matape that the first Negro slaves were brought into the Sonora province in 1672-73 by Daniel Angelo Marras, S.J. This matter of fact statement by one Jesuit clearly states that another Jesuit either possessed, or traded in Negro slaves. See web site http://southwest.library.arizona.edu.rudo/body.1_div.7.html

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The Church and Slavery
In Mexico, Dominicans, Augustinians, and Jesuits were known to own "the largest flocks of sheep, the finest sugar ingenios, the best kept estates...." The Church, particularly in South America, supported the enslavement of native inhabitants and the theft of native lands. A 1493 papal Bull justified declaring war on any natives in South America who refused to adhere to Christianity. Orthodox Christians defended slavery as part of the divinely ordained hierarchical order. Passages in the Bible support the institution of slavery: "Both the bondmen, and thy bondmaids, which thou shalt have, shall be of the heathen that are round about you; of them shall ye buy bondmen and bondmaids. Moreover the children of the strangers that do sojourn among you, of them shall ye buy, and of their families that are with you, which they began in your land: and they shall be your possession. And ye shall take them as an inheritance for your children after you, to inherit them for a possession; they shall be your bondmen for ever. [Leviticus 25:44-46]" St. Paul instructed slaves to obey their masters [Ephesians 6:5; 1 Timothy 6:1; Titus 2:9-10]. St. John Chrysostom wrote: "The slave should be resigned to his lot, in obeying his master he is obeying God...." St. Augustine wrote: "...slavery is not penal in character and planned by that law which commands the preservation of the natural order and forbids disturbance." See web site http://www.positiveatheism.org/hist/ellerbe0.htm

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Come on now Lamar. As good a researcher as you are, do you mean to tell me that you didn't know anything about this?

best-Mike

 

[gollum]

NOW,

Back to my favorite subject. I found the banister quote. It was from Joseph Och SJ, in the book "Missionary in Sonora The Travel Reports of Joseph Och, S.J. 1755-67." (California Historical Society, 1965)

Via pleasant roads we finally reached Ozumba, one of the beautiful estates belonging to the Puebla college, and two hours distant from the city. .... Then we were driven into the city of Puebla de los Angeles in several coaches amid the cheers of a great multitude, and lodged in the great, splendid College of the Holy Ghost, where we were entertained as guests for three days. … [Regarding the cathedral in Puebla.] The cathedral church possesses an exceedingly rich treasure in its gold and silver church appointments. In Spain and the Indies the prebendaries and other canons do not have their choir at the high altar. Rather, not far from the church entrance is a large, high partition in front of their seats, and from the choir to the high altar for their sole use runs an aisle enclosed on both sides by railings. These railings run through the entire cathedral church and are of the finest cast silver, each amounting to at least eight hundred weight. The colossally large, silver hanging lamp inspires awe in all visitors. It is more than eight feet across and is very thick and massively decorated. The chains with finger-thick silver links are so heavy that when a ladder is leaned against them they do not move. A man can quite comfortably walk around the edge of the lamp. The decoration is rather ponderous, yet its manufacture by a goldsmith [sic] is supposed to have cost two thousand pesos. I omit mention of the many thick, large silver candlesticks, monstrances, and ciboria of finest gold. Suchlike are found in proportion and abundance in all churches, even those in the smallest villages for the glorious Divine service.

HMMMMMMMMMMMM Intriguing! Maybe all those banisters and adornments are just silver CLAD!?!

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Same book:

After this the dishes were ready for use in cookery. .... many were worth more than a ducat because of the thousands of gold scales found mixed in with the clay. This gold could not have been collected through washing without an expenditure of labor in excess of the cost. It was true gold as I proved with a bit of quicksilver with which it immediately formed an amalgam....

Why is Father Och SJ carrying quicksilver (mercury)? No use for it other than amalgamating gold. HMMMMMMMMM, Intriguing still!

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Before moving on, maybe he was just carrying the mercury to give to someone else. After all, the title of the book states that these travels were between 1755 and 1767. Considering the Precept about having no knowledge of mining or mining practices came out in 1747, Och having anything to do with mining would have been a sin (he would have broken the vow of obedience). Maybe Och really had no knowledge of mining, uuuuuunleeeeeeeesssssss, you happen to find another quote from Och in the same book:

Ore Reduction -- Gold and silver ore varies. Some is very heavy, pure silver spiked, as it were, with silver nails. The completely black, very heavy ores are considered the richest and best. Nor can the different ores be treated in the same way. Some can be reduced by fire, for which everyone has free wood. The ore also may be broken up and placed into a clay oven with the required amount of molten lead, until in a concentrated fire the lead has amalgamated with the silver. Pebbles and slag float on top and are skimmed off with hoes and the lead heated with a double fire until it becomes light and frothy like glass. This froth is removed in heaps; what remains is pure silver. The fire is allowed to die; the silver gradually cools and may be removed from the oven with hooks. The lead has completely disappeared; yet half of it is always recovered in the frothy, glass-like stuff which again turns to lead when it is melted down. If this lead is used several times in the oven it becomes quite hard and resonant because of being mixed with some silver. Other silver ores are called 'rebellious' because they will not melt in the fire, but may often turn to copper while being smelted. From this ore the finest silver can be coaxed with mercury. The ore is pulverized or ground to dust, worked in heaps with water, like mortar, and tramped with bare feet along with quicksilver that is poured in by the flask. This work has to be repeated for several days so that the quicksilver will unite with the silver. In the absence of vats this mass is then put into cow hides or troughs, and is steadily washed with water and skimmed. It may also be boiled in large copper kettles. Continued stirring causes a silver amalgam to settle at the bottom of the kettle as well as in the troughs. This amalgam is quite soft and can be pressed into balls like snow. To separate the silver from the mercury the silver balls are put into a large earthen pot which has a tiny hole in the bottom. This pot is placed over another, and both are covered. A hot coal fire causes the mercury to flow from the silver and collect in the lower cauldron. The silver balls become filled with holes like a sponge, and during smelting the quicksilver remaining in them goes up in smoke. Joseph Och, S.J. 1755-1767, pp 145-146.

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Sounds like Father Och SJ was a little more involved in mining than he let on, HUH?

One last thing, on 25 June 1767, when the Spanish had him under arrest (he could not leave the Mission right away because he was too sick), something VERY interesting happened:

Page 58.
I lay crippled and lame in my bed; and I became quite impatient because of the disappearance of a good Indian youth who was day and night at my side and served as my own hands and feet, helping me with my outside needs and Mass. The soldiers had halted him in the vestry, and because the stairs were filled with troops there was no way he could return to my room. The long absence of this boy, who was exceptionally regular in preparing my chocolate, was something unusual. Finally toward seven O'Clock he arrived panting and sobbing. I learned that he had courageously risked running up the stairs, shouting: “I have a sick father to take care of!”

Page 59.
Now I knew that the house was full of soldiers. I immediately arranged through the loyal youth to have all my manuscripts torn up and burned, because he had free passage above to where the water was heated for chocolate. He brought in a large basin full of coals and burned my papers. The thick vapor and smoke revealed this action and a guard was posted at my door, but he arrived too late and the business was already finished.

WHAAAAAAAAT? BURNED HIS PAPERS? Geeez Lamar, why would a poor Jesuit Missionary need to burn any papers? What was he trying to hide from his Spanish Captors?

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I am also not too certain about your assertion that the "Secret Code" used by the SJ was Vulgate Latin. If you can, please show me ONE letter written by a Missionary Priest that is in Vulgate Latin. I have seen many, and all are in Spanish, of the handwriting style of either Ìtalica or Procesal (mostly Ìtalica, as this was the most commonly used handwriting style of the 18th Century). I HAVE seen, on the other hand, letters that on the surface don't seem to make a lot of sense, or mention things at odd places. HMMMMMMMMMMM I guess that's just my imagination running wild again.

Best-Mike

 

[gollum]

...................oh, and one thing to remember about Father Och SJs writings. They were all done long after he had arrived back in Europe. Safe from the Spanish Soldiers. He had nothing really to hide then, and was free to say anything he wanted. He wasn't worried about his writings being intercepted and read by the wrong people.

TeeHeeHee!

Best-Mike

 

[rangler]

Mike,
I stayed out of this affray, not because Lamar ask AZStomper to sit down and shut up..but because
I enjoyed the way you did- what my friend - an noted entomologist did -when he would pin a new species
to a display board!
Bravo
rangler

 

[ghostdog]

Rangler your right,Thunders Gods gold,1945 edition.,Gollum,my research tells me Storm died while working a gem mine he owned in the Calif.desert..The maps I have of the Supers.,copies of the originals,on 1 of the maps shows the mine trails laid out like a hiway with the Sugaro cactus being the guide posts on either side. This mine trail was laid out useing compass delieations at speciific points on the trail which would lead to other mounuments or rock inscriptions pointing to mine locations.
Somewhere in the Supers.is a hidden box canyon, and Chief Geranamo is its guardian.

 

[djui5]

Somewhere in the Supers.is a hidden box canyon

I believe there are a few of them

 

[ghostdog]

Well I do believe that ,however Geronimo Head is the only one I know of. Supposedly, some older tales might report access through a slit in a rock face,or you might drop down into the canyon on a rope.The gold in a rose quartz vien is so rich you can hand morter it as the story goes. Prehistoric buriel mounds and walled up terraces near Garden Valley are said to be possible close locations,although a distance from Geronimo Head..probably closed up by earth quakes and landslides by now.

 

[gollum]

Rangler,

Thanks. I enjoy getting deeply into the debate, having the other person paint themselves into a corner, then unload some of the more damning information.

There is even better stuff that I am under promises not to openly post at this time, but what I have presented should more than prove the Jesuit Fathers had more involvement with Mining than history teaches us.

Ghost Dog,

I don't know anything about a gem mine, but Barry Storm died while living in a plywood shack in the Anza-Borrego Area. From the story I read, he was still thinking people were after him, and was always peeking out his window clutching his pistol.

Best-Mike

 

[lamar]

Dear Gollum;
What have you unloaded, my friend. I'll be quite happy to sum up exactly what you've loaded. Unfounded rumors, speculation, heresay, and all other manner of popular tripe. And that is all. The reason why I've stopped replying on this topic is because we've taken it far from it's intended course and any further discussions will likely send it over the horizon, and beyond that point, there be monsters my friend.

To refute and contradict your assumptions that the Jesuits were in any way involved in the slave trade in the New World colonies, I would like to remind you that the Jesuit missions, once established, soon became havens unto themselves and thus were beyond the governing of local secular politics. To compare, the missions quickly became embassies of the Holy See and as such, did not fall under the jurisdiction of the colonial governors.

That the Jesuits sought to convert as many natives as they could is a VERY well documented fact and once Christianized, the natives therefore had certain inalienable rights. In fact, the modern rights are a direct descendant from the Roman Catholic rights of brothers. Once Christianized, a native could no longer be enslaved and this was a HUGE point of contention between the Jesuits and the colonists. again, this fact is so well documented that it needs no further explotation, my friend.

Now, within fifty years after the arrival of the first settlers in the New World, virtually ALL of the native population had been either massacred or converted to Christianity, therefore the Spanish, and most especially the Portuguese took to capturing Africans in their West African colonies, placing them in chains onboard ships and transporting them to the Americas, where they would live out their lives on plantations and in the mines. This fact is also painfully well documented and requires no speculation at this point.

Somewhere during this timeframe, attitudes began to shift, first slightly, then wholeheartedly, as settlers and Jesuits alike tried cordoning off their spheres of influence in the New World colonies. At first there were verbal treaties between the Jesuit missionaries and the settlers which stated that the Jesuits would remain on their missions and the settlers would not enter the missions without prior permission and escort, and that the populace housed within the grounds of the mission would remain untouched by the settlers.

By the word mission, I mean the various tracts of land that the Jesuits controlled, such as the comiendas, etc. Taking these agreements to heart and being Jesuits and thus highly educated, they therefore encouraged African slaves to escape from their owners, and once reaching Jesuit territory, were free, after a fashion. True, they were not free to roam about at will and they had to follow the rules laid out by the Jesuits, but when compared to the alternative, they stood a much better chance of survival with the Jesuits, therefore it was fairly obvious what the immediate goal of all New World slaves was.

After a while armed rebellions by the settlers broke out in several isolated incidents, so high were the tensions between the two factions. if you would spend a bit of time studying WHO the Jesuits were and a bit more time studying WHo the settlers were, then it should become apparent that there vast differences in social order, attitudes, class distinctions and most importantly, education levels.

To a man, all Jesuit priests were highly educated, whereas practically none of the settlers had recieved more than a rudimentary education. The settlers were, almost to the man, very low on the Spanish social ladder and the large majority of them were just a step or two the serf class. They were uneducated, brutal hard sorts who knew hardship and butchery and on the other hand, there were a bunch of religious academics standing firmly between them and their goals. That friction would ensue was inevitable.

There has yet to surface any documentation which placed ownership of slaves in the possession of the Jesuits in the New World colonies. In fact, there were many times Jesuits had been reprimanded by their superiors for not inflicting physical punishment on their charges. The Jesuit missionaires worked around these reprimands by hiring *correctors* that is, people whose primary function was to mete out punishment.

That the Jesuits held firm in their belief that corporal punishment was wrong has remained a sore point within some of the more strict Catholics has remained until today, and yet if I am to believe what you have read, this was, and still is, naught but a farce, and the fact remains that the Jesuits were slave owners? Nawwwwwww. Didn't happen my gullible friend.

Also, Fr. Och was a German mining engineer, member of the Royal Mining Comission who held an appointment from the King of Spain. He was also a highly educated and acclaimed mining engineer and a Jesuit priest, so yes, one would assume that he would have had mercury, as well as other chemicals associated with ore reclamation and processing, in his possession.

As far as the destruction of documents is concerned, have you NEVER destroyed a document before? What a bank slip, or perhaps something else that you did not wish for others to read? Trust me, my old friend, all of us have had the need to destroy documents at one point or other in our lives and seeing as how the Jesuits were in a virtual state of war with the colonits I am highly surprised that more documents were not burned.

Housed within the surviving documentation, one may read of all sorts of atrocities which the settlers had committed, therefore it stands to reason that the Jesuits would be fearful of reprisals if such documentation were found in their possessions. Simply because a Jesuit burned documents to keep the secular powers from reading them proves nothing, except that the Jesuits were smarter than the average bears.

That you have sworn to steadfastly remain silent about the really GOOD stuff also comes as no surprise, my friend. It seems that EVERYBODY who has any knowledge of Jesuit impropireties has been sworn to silence. In fact, I am very likely the only person I know of who has not taken a vow of secrecy in this regard. Really, my friend. You'll have to do better than that.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[gollum]

Lamar, Lamar, Lamar,

Dear Gollum;
What have you unloaded, my friend. I'll be quite happy to sum up exactly what you've loaded. Unfounded rumors, speculation, heresay, and all other manner of popular tripe. And that is all. The reason why I've stopped replying on this topic is because we've taken it far from it's intended course and any further discussions will likely send it over the horizon, and beyond that point, there be monsters my friend.

To refute and contradict your assumptions that the Jesuits were in any way involved in the slave trade in the New World colonies, I would like to remind you that the Jesuit missions, once established, soon became havens unto themselves and thus were beyond the governing of local secular politics. To compare, the missions quickly became embassies of the Holy See and as such, did not fall under the jurisdiction of the colonial governors.

That the Jesuits sought to convert as many natives as they could is a VERY well documented fact and once Christianized, the natives therefore had certain inalienable rights. In fact, the modern rights are a direct descendant from the Roman Catholic rights of brothers. Once Christianized, a native could no longer be enslaved and this was a HUGE point of contention between the Jesuits and the colonists. again, this fact is so well documented that it needs no further explotation, my friend.

Now, within fifty years after the arrival of the first settlers in the New World, virtually ALL of the native population had been either massacred or converted to Christianity, therefore the Spanish, and most especially the Portuguese took to capturing Africans in their West African colonies, placing them in chains onboard ships and transporting them to the Americas, where they would live out their lives on plantations and in the mines. This fact is also painfully well documented and requires no speculation at this point.

Somewhere during this timeframe, attitudes began to shift, first slightly, then wholeheartedly, as settlers and Jesuits alike tried cordoning off their spheres of influence in the New World colonies. At first there were verbal treaties between the Jesuit missionaries and the settlers which stated that the Jesuits would remain on their missions and the settlers would not enter the missions without prior permission and escort, and that the populace housed within the grounds of the mission would remain untouched by the settlers.

By the word mission, I mean the various tracts of land that the Jesuits controlled, such as the comiendas, etc. Taking these agreements to heart and being Jesuits and thus highly educated, they therefore encouraged African slaves to escape from their owners, and once reaching Jesuit territory, were free, after a fashion. True, they were not free to roam about at will and they had to follow the rules laid out by the Jesuits, but when compared to the alternative, they stood a much better chance of survival with the Jesuits, therefore it was fairly obvious what the immediate goal of all New World slaves was.

After a while armed rebellions by the settlers broke out in several isolated incidents, so high were the tensions between the two factions. if you would spend a bit of time studying WHO the Jesuits were and a bit more time studying WHo the settlers were, then it should become apparent that there vast differences in social order, attitudes, class distinctions and most importantly, education levels.

To a man, all Jesuit priests were highly educated, whereas practically none of the settlers had recieved more than a rudimentary education. The settlers were, almost to the man, very low on the Spanish social ladder and the large majority of them were just a step or two the serf class. They were uneducated, brutal hard sorts who knew hardship and butchery and on the other hand, there were a bunch of religious academics standing firmly between them and their goals. That friction would ensue was inevitable.

There has yet to surface any documentation which placed ownership of slaves in the possession of the Jesuits in the New World colonies. In fact, there were many times Jesuits had been reprimanded by their superiors for not inflicting physical punishment on their charges. The Jesuit missionaires worked around these reprimands by hiring *correctors* that is, people whose primary function was to mete out punishment.

That the Jesuits held firm in their belief that corporal punishment was wrong has remained a sore point within some of the more strict Catholics has remained until today, and yet if I am to believe what you have read, this was, and still is, naught but a farce, and the fact remains that the Jesuits were slave owners? Nawwwwwww. Didn't happen my gullible friend.

Also, Fr. Och was a German mining engineer, member of the Royal Mining Comission who held an appointment from the King of Spain. He was also a highly educated and acclaimed mining engineer and a Jesuit priest, so yes, one would assume that he would have had mercury, as well as other chemicals associated with ore reclamation and processing, in his possession.

As far as the destruction of documents is concerned, have you NEVER destroyed a document before? What a bank slip, or perhaps something else that you did not wish for others to read? Trust me, my old friend, all of us have had the need to destroy documents at one point or other in our lives and seeing as how the Jesuits were in a virtual state of war with the colonits I am highly surprised that more documents were not burned.

Housed within the surviving documentation, one may read of all sorts of atrocities which the settlers had committed, therefore it stands to reason that the Jesuits would be fearful of reprisals if such documentation were found in their possessions. Simply because a Jesuit burned documents to keep the secular powers from reading them proves nothing, except that the Jesuits were smarter than the average bears.

That you have sworn to steadfastly remain silent about the really GOOD stuff also comes as no surprise, my friend. It seems that EVERYBODY who has any knowledge of Jesuit impropireties has been sworn to silence. In fact, I am very likely the only person I know of who has not taken a vow of secrecy in this regard. Really, my friend. You'll have to do better than that.
Your friend;
LAMAR

I cut and pasted your post because now, there is no way for you to change or delete any of it.

Unfounded rumors, speculation, heresay

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA! REALLY? I give you Father Och's own words, from his own writings, and you call them UNFOUNDED RUMORS? HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

You call what I give you unfounded speculation, but your only explanation for the quote regarding SOLID SILVER STATUES OF THE VIRGIN MARY in every Mission, was that they MIGHT have been silver coated? What is that, if not SPECULATION?

When I give you referenced materials, you answer with derision. I'm sorry if real history doesn't quite mesh with what you were taught. Regardless of what you say, you can't argue with facts, BUUUUUUT, you do seem to be able to easily ignore them when presented.

You seem to ignore the quotes regarding Father Och's travels in Mexico, in which he describes the two solid silver banisters that weigh 800 weight each. What about all the gold and silver Church adornments that he says exist in most every Mission/Church in Nueva Espana? What about his description of the chandelier? EIGHT FEET IN DIAMETER? LARGE ENOUGH FOR A MAN TO COMFORTABLY WALK AROUND? LARGE ENOUGH TO LEAN A LADDER AGAINST IT AND IT NOT MOVE?

READ THE ENTIRE QUOTE!!!! Are you calling Father Och a liar? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

NOW, you make me laugh Lamar. Your last post is a pitiful requiem to several well researched answers to many questions. I'LL TELL YOU WHY YOU STOPPED POSTING HERE! BECAUSE YOU HAD NO ANSWER TO THE WORDS STRAIGHT OUT OF THE MOUTH OF A JESUIT PRIEST WHO SPENT 12 YEARS IN NUEVA ESPANA!

Your explanation for the reason for Och's destruction of his documents is more than feeble! It reeks of Lou Gehrig's Disease. He was sick in bed, and under arrest. He risked his trusted servant's life by having him destroy documents he did not want to fall into Spanish Hands. I highly doubt he was destroying bank deposit slips! HAHAHAHAHA! If he did nothing wrong, and the Jesuit Order did everything on the "up and up" any documents he would have been in possession of, would have only helped prove the Jesuit's Case.

acclaimed mining engineer and a Jesuit priest, so yes, one would assume that he would have had mercury, as well as other chemicals associated with ore reclamation and processing, in his possession

REALLY? REALLY? REALLY? REALLY?

Your explanation for the reason Father Och carried Mercury COMPLETELY disregards THE FACTS regarding the JESUIT PRECEPT about having NO KNOWLEDGE OF ANYTHING TO DO WITH MINING. By going against a PRECEPT, he was committing a SIN by breaking his VOW OF OBEDIENCE! His writings ALL took place between 1755 and 1767. The Precept was given in 1747. EXPLAIN THAT!

Let me restate the Precept (just in case you missed it ):

Rule #4. No one will work mines. This includes the prohibition that no one will have any knowledge about the matter of mining, either directly or indirectly. The intention of the precept is to include all forms of knowledge or interpretations that could even fall within the same precept.

A Precept (from the Latin præcipere, to teach) is a commandment, instruction, or order intended as an authoritative rule of action.

I am sorry that you chose this sword to fall on for the Jesuits. It is a losing battle (along with Jesuit Slave Trading). Both happened (mining and slaving).

Lamar, I hope that if you choose to come back to our debate here, that you come back better than your last post! You REALLY did yourself a disservice, and made yourself look bad. I expected MUCH more from you (except that how can you fight Father Och's VERY OWN WORDS?).

Best-Mike

 

[gollum]

Lamar,

Sorry. I almost forgot to answer your last accusation against me. That I somehow have a cross to bear against the Jesuits.

Let me make this statement short, clear, and concise, so there can be NO misinterpretation:

"HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!"

I hope that clears up my feelings regarding your accusation.

Your accusation sounds just like those of MALDEF and other Illegal Alien Advocacy Groups. When someone says that they want to keep illegal Mexicans out of the United States, they are called BIGOTS, RACISTS, and the like. Very few people dislike Mexicans or any other Hispanics. I have spent many years of my life in countries from Columbia to Mexico, and have many friends there.

When someone like myself and some of my friends do their due diligence, spend countless years and dollars researching this subject, AND, through their hard work and steadfastness, find evidence that PROVES (unless you say that the Jesuits were lying in their own writings) illegal Jesuit involvement in mining activities, all your kind can say is that it is all BS, and we have an axe to grind against the Order.

NOTHING COULD BE FURTHER FROM THE TRUTH! I just find the facts, and let the dice fall where they may! If it doesn't jibe with what you were taught, maybe you should look at what you were taught a little closer, rather than just saying everything we do is crap!

Best-Mike

 

[lamar]

Dear Gollum;
Were you sober when you typed your last statement? You have never had need to copy and paste ANY of my posts as I have never altered one yet, except for the typos and other spelling errors. I am insulted that you would think so little of me in this regard.

Also, I never accused you of anything. I merely stated that I seem to be the only person about without some sort of deep dark secret to hide. I much prefer living in this manner.

You so richly stated:

"NOTHING COULD BE FURTHER FROM THE TRUTH! I just find the facts, and let the dice fall where they may! If it doesn't jibe with what you were taught, maybe you should look at what you were taught a little closer, rather than just saying everything we do is ----!"

I took the liberty of deleting the final word as I do not like to use rude words. I never stated anything of the sort, nor did I imply anything of the sort. My implications should be clear at this point. Your conclusions are incorrect. Your assumptions are based solely on circumstantial evidence, and mostly modern evidence at that, from other so-called professionals who write books for the sole purpose of making a profit.

Also, I never stated that your work was less than meticulous, merely that I feel your conclusions to be incorrect.

And now, to close this missive, I feel that I need to gracefully exit from this discussion as it can serve no further good purpose to continue on with it.
LAMAR

 

[rangler]

"And now, to close this missive, I feel that I need to gracefully exit from this discussion as it can serve no further good purpose to continue on with it."
LAMAR
/TRANSLATION/
And now, to run and hide as fast as I can when I am pinned down with the proper documentation
(that I ask for by the way) as I can no longer defend my self and I am embarrassed that my agenda
was soundly trounced, and I cant go on with it.

[remember I still have the magic decoder ring]

I suggest that you remove yourself from this website as well Padre Lamar, as you have been discredited
and seriously de-*frocked* by Mike!
auferiously
rangler

 

[gollum]

Lamar,

No, my friend, I was not drunk, but heartily amused when I responded to your post.

First:

You said:

Also, I never accused you of anything.

Your accusation:

That you have sworn to steadfastly remain silent about the really GOOD stuff also comes as no surprise, my friend.

THAT last quote tells me that I must have some kind of axe to grind against the Jesuits because I don't talk about all the good they do. I didn't mention those things because none of them were pertinent to the subject at hand: JESUIT MINING AND/OR JESUITS IN THE SLAVE TRADE.

You:

I never stated anything of the sort, nor did I imply anything of the sort. My implications should be clear at this point. Your conclusions are incorrect. Your assumptions are based solely on circumstantial evidence, and mostly modern evidence at that, from other so-called professionals who write books for the sole purpose of making a profit.

I'll let you argue against yourself regarding Jesuit Slave Holding, as it is not my primary interest, and I have already provided ample referenced evidence to the fact.

YOU STILL HAVE NOT GOTTEN PAST THE FACT THAT FATHER OCH "IN HIS OWN WORDS" ADMITTED TO HAVING KNOWLEDGE OF MINING AND REFINING THAT WOULD HAVE MEANT HE COMMITTED A SIN BY BREAKING HIS VOW OF OBEDIENCE, SINCE HIS WRITINGS REFERRED TO HIS TRAVELS FROM 1755-1767, AND THE PRECEPT AGAINST MINING WAS ISSUED IN 1747.

YOU ALSO SEEM TO IGNORE "HIS OWN WORDS" REGARDING HIS DESCRIPTIONS OF ALL THE SILVER AND GOLD CHURCH ADORNMENTS.

I don't care about Jesuit Slavery Issues. Slavery was legal everywhere in the New World in the 18th Century. Jesuit Mining was highly illegal, though, and several Jesuit Fathers, IN THEIR OWN WORDS, admitted to many aspects of both mining and possessing LARGE amounts of wealth, which somehow completely disappeared by 25 June 1767, when the Spanish came knocking.

You don't refute it, because there IS NO REFUTATION TO IT (unless you wish to call the Fathers liars).

I apologize for implying you may change your post. I have just seen so many people do it when they are proven wrong, I just assumed........and yes, I know what happens when one assumes.

Best-Mike

 

[desertmoons]

re: slaves buried in mines. Well I've looked and looked for a reference i had on my defunct computer but can not find it. However, I had run across a credible reference a couple years ago from a retired mining engineer or geologist. In his biography, he spoke of finding 12-13 skeletons shackled in a closed mine somewhere in south/middle america. Sadly I do not recall the details as to location or circumstances except - perhaps - it was associated with a more modern quarry. Time wise this was found between 1930 and 1980.

This has been interesting and educational reading. We all have our blind spots.

I sometimes think conditions pre revolt were very different than the second wave. Though it was mainly Francisians in the southwest at the time (I think - but not sure...) they perhaps relied on once every three years supply trains from Mexico. Based on very preliminary and sketchy investigation , there did not seem to be a lot of military present either, at least in New Mexico - one source places it at 40 soldiers.

The conditions of the missions - well...am still investigating that. Some seemed rich, other poor. In later years, it was virtual slavery for some converts - being captured if they ran away , and owing a debt of servitude for some years before they were free. This was in later years in california - 1800's. Now though perhaps that was not Jesuit territory at the time, the actions that the church apparently approved of then, perhaps were approved earlier on too. Traditions are slow to change.

Jesuits were and are of course, men of God. But they were men too, and men have their foibles and can be corrupted. It may not even seem corruption if the culture doe not recognize it as so. It is not a leap of faith to me to assume there was Jesuit mining going on. Gollum as well as others have pointed out some resources that lend credence to that idea. Gold and silver have an allure.....

Despite what might have gone on back then, I am rather fond of Jesuits. Their fight for social justice in more modern times in South America is something to not be forgotten. And of course some of their scholarship is top notch.

Can we dispense with the bickering? Exchange of ideas and research is always interesting. The actual proof demanded by some is not going to happen - no one is going to post "I found a clearly marked Jesuit mine or cache" for reasons that are obvious. By now that should be clear. And even if they did, i doubt it would be enough to make the case for some.

So the field is soo interesting - lot to learn and a lot of mysteries. Lets enjoy it!

 

[gollum]

DM,

Actually, you are misinterpreting the whole deal regarding Jesuits and Slavery. At the time, it was legal. If you know your Bible, you will find several references to slavery in it. One of them tells the slaves that to obey their master is like unto obeying God.

Augustine, Aquinas, and the founder of the Society of Jesus [Jesuits], St. Ignatius of Loyola, all had different understandings of why slavery existed. Augustine saw it as a punishment for original sin; Aquinas saw it as an unavoidable consequence of the fact that some people were born to govern and others were not; and Ignatius saw it as a means of protecting and serving the poor. In all cases, Catholic theological thought viewed slavery as divinely ordained. Attitudes suggest the Jesuits might have seen slavery as being a "positive good" from the very beginning. The Jesuits may have seen themselves as being obliged as Christians, and more specifically as Catholics to uphold this institution. The Jesuit plantations, which were financial disaster, were not benefiting from the use of slave labor. Additionally, the writings of American-born Jesuits began to express the "racist" notion that African Americans were inherently incapable of salvation. The Jesuits' theological understanding of slavery caused them to dismiss the notion of freeing their slaves. See web site http://jsr.as.wvu.edu/2002/Reviews/Farrelly.htm

I don't think there's anything wrong with the Jesuits being slave owners in the 18th Century. My family owned slaves until 1814. It was both legal and the standard practice of the times.

Best-Mike