re: jimbs post - A Real Stumper

[KTMRIDER]

re: jimb's post - A Real Stumper

I have seen how ya'll enjoy a challenge, so here's one for ya. I have spent countless hours of research on this over the past 10 years or so, sent pics to universities, museums and "experts" all over the world to no avail. Would love to know what it is or what it was used for. I have ideas/guesses but will hold off on these for now. It measures 48 inches wide by 18 in. tall(not counting iron hooks) by 1 1/2" thick tapering to 3/4". Please study the carvings/symbols/ideograms/etc., maybe you can identify some of these and their meanings, such as what type of cross? what type leaves/plant coming out of the urn at top, sun symbols? etc. The Pentagrams/pentacles are a given. I have compared the many carvings with coins, monies, stamps and art from all over the world and again I have my own ideas/guesses but will hold off on those too for now, don't want to influence anyone else's opinions/guesses. Maybe you know of someone/someplace that could be of help? BTW, this(researching this thing) is what brought me to this wonderful site in the first place and this site prompted me to dig out my old MD. Thanks for looking and Have fun! I plan to offer reward $$$ for positive ID of this.

 

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[Montana Jim]

Re: re: jimb's post - A Real Stumper

Yea... no.

I'm not buying the whole "witch" thing.

I think this was handcrafted for a much more mundane reason yet to be determined.

 

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[RELICDUDE07]

Re: re: jimb's post - A Real Stumper

It is a free world,you can buy anything you want ....http://www.teacheroz.com/Middle_Ages.htm

 

[KTMRIDER]

Re: re: jimb's post - A Real Stumper

Cool site Relicdude, this'll take me days to look thru. May or may not be anything to do with witches and/or witchcraft but I'm not ruling out much of anything now. The intelligence on this site is very refreshing, BTW.

 

[Old Dog]

Re: re: jimb's post - A Real Stumper

KTMRIDER,

From the open grain as shown in your photos I would almost eliminate white oak, and all other tight or filled grain woods
which leaves red oak and white ash as the main suspects as far as common woods go.
from the looks of the way the wood weathered on the parts that are carved I would go with red oak .

Ash has a tendancy when worn like that to shed long fine fibers and even aged will be a lighter color.

Hope this helped.
Thom

 

[DCMatt]

Re: re: jimb's post - A Real Stumper

Cool piece!

Here is my uneducated, unabashed guess:

I have to agree that it is horse related, possibly from a hearse or even a gypsy wagon (vardo). It may be a couple hundred years old but I don't think it is as old as you have been told. Again, I have NOTHING to back up my guess - just gut reaction...

My experience reminds me that these things are rarely as exotic or exciting as we think (hope) they are.

Have you done a charcol rubbing to try to bring out any more detail in the carvings?

DCMatt

 

[RELICDUDE07]

Re: re: jimb's post - A Real Stumper

Ktm.I think if you spend some time and look thru the tarot cards you are going to find the exact symbols on your piece. I also read that people today find old pieces of wood and carve these signs on them,and sell in witchcraft stores.. It has about 10,000,000 cards looks like on the web. site, but all the symbols are here..The cup/wheel of fortune/ pentacles/ ace of wands /eye..I hope it helps you solve it.......And i hope its old like you say, it would look great in the salem collection. http://www.aeclectic.net/tarot/cards/list.shtml

 

[Angelo]

Re: re: jimb's post - A Real Stumper

Here's a couple of things I'm having a problem with:

Measurements 48" x 18" x 1 1/2. These are modern measurements. With the exception of the 18", can you detect a splice?

Brackets/Hooks: To me they do not appear to be that old. Can you give us a close up, including the nail attachment of both sides. And can you tell how the hook is forged/welded at the strap brackets. Any hammered marks?

Tony

 

[Old Dog]

Re: re: jimb's post - A Real Stumper

Angelo,

Here is a scribbled picture where the joints are pointed out.
Compare with the intro picture.
They aren't that hard to see. if this thing is as old as everyone thinks.
I recommend keeping it somewhere it will stay cool.
Heat over 100 degrees may cause the joints to separate more.

 

[gtfd47]

Re: re: jimb's post - A Real Stumper

Here's a stretch, but what the hell. Im going with it being some sort of foot pedal, perhaps for a bellows or a pump organ, leaning towards organ, due to the ornateness, and I can see it at the organists feet. Brief research shows some pretty huge ones around in churches and such. Thats my guess.

Goose

http://www.jstor.org/pss/3128022

 

[gtfd47]

Re: re: jimb's post - A Real Stumper

also search bellows-mender or minder, came up with a couple of people working a bellows for a large organ or fire, could account for the size of it

C-ya

 

[Angelo]

Re: re: jimb's post - A Real Stumper

Thanks Old Dog. In that case a simple X-Ray may show bisquits or pegs or an older method of splicing to help determine age.

Tony

 

[gtfd47]

Re: re: jimb's post - A Real Stumper

Part 2 chpt 1...or the whole read if you are so inclined....that is all

I am done

http://books.google.com/books?id=YU...=X&oi=book_result&resnum=2&ct=result#PPA36,M1

 

[Carson Coin Master]

Re: re: jimb's post - A Real Stumper

i'm taking a shot in the dark here, but growing up the priest in our church had something similar it sat on his podeum and was where his large bible sat. and the hooks where used to hold the pages down in the bible. I can't tell if its the same type of thing. but they look similar. good luck on the research.

 

[RELICDUDE07]

Re: re: jimb's post - A Real Stumper

Ktm .The only way to find out what the piece is,is to find someone who can read the terot card its self....Each card/symbol has many different things that it could stand for. But some not good/blackmagic.I think its (celtic )from the god cernunnos ,hes the one i could see with a head in each arm in the first photos you posted .........

 

[KTMRIDER]

Re: re: jimb's post - A Real Stumper

Thanks for looking Old Dog, I am a carpenter with a pretty good knowledge of wood and it does not appear to be oak(to me) but could be, maybe English? I have seen 2-300 year old lumber that looks slightly different(grain)than modern. Yew has also been suggested.

There are no joints, this is one piece of wood. The cracks are just that. The measurements given are approximate.

Relicdude, not sure if you're on the right track or not(kinda hope you are) but cool stuff nonetheless.

My experience reminds me that these things are rarely as exotic or exciting as we think (hope) they are.

Have you done a charcol rubbing to try to bring out any more detail in the carvings?

DCMatt

Unfortunately, having been in the antiques business for 12-13 years, my experience has usually been the same, but I am still holding out hope on this one, albeit maybe in vain. I have done a charcoal rubbing but it did not show any better than the actual.

More good suggestions to look into, thanks ya'll.

 

[Montana Jim]

Re: re: jimb's post - A Real Stumper

No matter - it's certainly an awesome and interesting piece.

I hope you find out what it is...

 

[KTMRIDER]

Re: re: jimb's post - A Real Stumper

Brackets/Hooks: To me they do not appear to be that old. Can you give us a close up, including the nail attachment of both sides. And can you tell how the hook is forged/welded at the strap brackets. Any hammered marks?

Tony

As stated before, all of the iron appears to have been added at a later date, after being well used before the addition. The fasteners used appear to be hand forged which would more than likely indicate that the iron was added before the early 1800's. Machine made (square, cut)nails were developed around 1810. FYI: the modern wire nail was developed, I think, 1891.
One new thing I discovered: where the hooks are located, there were slots just like the one shown that were plugged before the addition of the hooks. You may be able to see this in the pics.
The other pic is of the piece of iron at bottom center.

No matter - it's certainly an awesome and interesting piece.

I hope you find out what it is...

Thanks MJ, I hope so too.

 

[savant365]

Re: re: jimb's post - A Real Stumper

Is there anything on the back of it where it would attach to something else?

 

[jimb]

Re: re: jimb's post - A Real Stumper

I have seen something that was somewhat similar hanging on a wall in the office of a Rabi in Israel while giving a talk on T.V. Must have been a breast plate. However are you sure that it is right side up. Perhaps the hooks are to hang it from. In which case the star then becomes a pentagram.

 

[mojjax]

Re: re: jimb's post - A Real Stumper

I think you should have it checked out by the History Detectives on PBS .