re: jimbs post - A Real Stumper

[KTMRIDER]

re: jimb's post - A Real Stumper

I have seen how ya'll enjoy a challenge, so here's one for ya. I have spent countless hours of research on this over the past 10 years or so, sent pics to universities, museums and "experts" all over the world to no avail. Would love to know what it is or what it was used for. I have ideas/guesses but will hold off on these for now. It measures 48 inches wide by 18 in. tall(not counting iron hooks) by 1 1/2" thick tapering to 3/4". Please study the carvings/symbols/ideograms/etc., maybe you can identify some of these and their meanings, such as what type of cross? what type leaves/plant coming out of the urn at top, sun symbols? etc. The Pentagrams/pentacles are a given. I have compared the many carvings with coins, monies, stamps and art from all over the world and again I have my own ideas/guesses but will hold off on those too for now, don't want to influence anyone else's opinions/guesses. Maybe you know of someone/someplace that could be of help? BTW, this(researching this thing) is what brought me to this wonderful site in the first place and this site prompted me to dig out my old MD. Thanks for looking and Have fun! I plan to offer reward $$$ for positive ID of this.

 

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[KTMRIDER]

Re: re: jimb's post - A Real Stumper

Is it a holder for the Torah?


It could also be a part of a choir stand--with the hooks keeping the choir books in place by twisting upward and holding the covers of the book down to the panel. Most of these just had a ledge which held the book though...

Voice parts were written individually in the books (rather than the score form we use today with choir music, back then they were more like orchestra parts--and each person could only see their own part.) They did this to save vellum--since it was a valuable commodity.



Are the hooks flat and flush with the surface of the panel, or are they both curved upward away from the panel? Do they swivel?



-Buckleboy

Whew! I just spent several hours on these leads BB, nothing yet but still a good consideration. Learned alot. Forgot to answer on the hooks before. They are flush and do not swivel. Thanks for explaining the pentagrams(or pentacles...pentagram in a circle), I learned about these years ago, they have even been found on rocks and cave drawings from prehistoric times. Paganism has been around for quite some time but Wicca is fairly recent.

I think its was to kill witches.wican

Or at least drive out the evil spirits maybe.

i can not make out some of the symbol. However there seem to be a wide variety. It made me think of the rosicurions or other mystical orders like golden dawn.

Have you sent pics to the British Museum as it seems to medieval?

It hangs down, with hooks, straps and perhaps even horsehair rope. Or the horsehair plugs could have been plumes?
Piece of a carrriage?

Done some research on the carriage thing in the past and could find nothing resembling this. Good suggestion though and I haven't ruled it out. I have sent these pics to the Victoria and Albert Museum years ago and never received a response, good idea, i think I'll try again. The strange part is that it is being shown right side up and all of the attachment places are on bottom. There are actually 2 more slots not pictured that go up into the bottom edge right where the 2 small holes(one each side, lower bottom, near outer edge) are. I'm sure that a rope? with an eye slid up in the slot and would have been held captive with a pin(thru the hole).

It has alot of wica symbols,i would keep it in the garage.

Heck, it's been under my bed for a couple years. Maybe that's the reason I'm half crazy.javascript:void(0);
tard javascript:void(0);
Grin

 

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[La Beep]

Re: re: jimb's post - A Real Stumper

One half of a pack saddle?
Back rest for a saddle?

Horse related, maybe Spanish.
I would put the location closer to home. Spanish also maybe.

2 large strap holes.
4 smaller strap holes.
2 hooks.
star in whats looks like a saddle decoration.

 

[RELICDUDE07]

Re: re: jimb's post - A Real Stumper

Wiccan is the practice of witchcraft that goes back way before the 1950s...It has alot more then just the star,it has the lizards and the broom also......Some things handcrafted you will never find another one that is just like it.We find stuff all the time that is one of a kind.Like my opium pipe. If you can find one ,i would love to see it. http://www.gospelway.com/religiousgroups/witchcraft.php

 

[alpha105]

Re: re: jimb's post - A Real Stumper

Wiccan is the practice of witchcraft that goes back way before the 1950s...

 

[jimb]

Re: re: jimb's post - A Real Stumper

Wow that is an interesting find! About the pentagram--- A pentagram has the point down. Yours is up, which makes it a star. That is assuming that you pictured the object right side up. And judging from the little man it must be. I am sure that it will take a while to figure it out, but we all love a mystery! Jimb

 

[RELICDUDE07]

Re: re: jimb's post - A Real Stumper

Its the broom that makes me think it was for witchcraft buckleboy.I know alot of people and kids practice and are wiccan members and i think its cool ,i have a few friends that do...But when they light the fires and cook the stuff that has been past down from generations its time for relicdude to hit the road Things were a bit differnent when this thing was in use....

 

[Montana Jim]

Re: re: jimb's post - A Real Stumper

One half of a pack saddle?
Back rest for a saddle?

Horse related, maybe Spanish.
I would put the location closer to home. Spanish also maybe.

2 large strap holes.
4 smaller strap holes.
2 hooks.
star in whats looks like a saddle decoration.

Clear and stable thinking... I tend to agree.

 

[BuckleBoy]

Re: re: jimb's post - A Real Stumper

Its the broom that makes me think it was for witchcraft buckleboy.I know alot of people and kids practice and are wiccan members and i think its cool ,i have a few friends that do...But when they light the fires and cook the stuff that has been past down from generations its time for relicdude to hit the road Things were a bit differnent when this thing was in use....

Yeah, that does kinda look like a broom. I think the key to this mystery is a background in 14th c. symbology--which none of us has LOL. For example--is it a spiral or a labyrinth on one corner of it? BIG difference in meaning! Labyrinth was borrowed from Greek Mythology--and was even on the floor in a huge version in the colored stones of Medieval churches and clergy as well as congregants walked the labyrinth...a Spiral might indicate Celtic origins--and to be honest, there might be other symbols in the mix that suggest that as well... Who knows?

 

[RELICDUDE07]

Re: re: jimb's post - A Real Stumper

Your right buckleboy,this is a very hard one and may never get solved..The symbol i like the best and wish i could see it better,is the one in the middle /that looks like where you would place the head and tie the arms at the other holes, it looks like some kinda of god with a head in each arm I think hes a big clue

 

[Old Dog]

Re: re: jimb's post - A Real Stumper

Bump,

I would be happy to try an ID on the wood species .
Email a full sized picture to me and I will give it my best shot.
Preferably a picture with the least amount of carving ...mostly clear wood.

Thom

 

[RELICDUDE07]

Re: re: jimb's post - A Real Stumper

I was just haveing fun ktm.I think you should take it and have carbon dated ,and also look for traces of blood.It looks old like you said medevil and maybe a priceless relic for the salem collection.It may have been a water board to release evil spirits....

 

[lostcauses]

Re: re: jimb's post - A Real Stumper

Looks to be a eye of Horus or simaler symbol (all seeing eye). A fountain of life. Sun and swirl. Cross in circle,
The hooks are made in such a way that they would have held a loop or chain. The dual parallel slots are for were the hanging was secured, (most likely by leather strips).
From the dual slots, I can ASSUME this item had some thing hanging from it that was pulled (the worn holes from some thing being pulled through them) up.
As for the symbols try looking at rugs tapestry etc. They may show up in such.

What ever it was it held a tapestry or some other item that was rolled up and secured to it.


The mix in symbolism makes me wounder if this was not some movie prop. A bit strange combination of symbols. The wood look like it was sand blasted also.

 

[La Beep]

Re: re: jimb's post - A Real Stumper

Looks to be a eye of Horus or simaler symbol (all seeing eye). A fountain of life. Sun and swirl. Cross in circle,
The hooks are made in such a way that they would have held a loop or chain. The dual parallel slots are for were the hanging was secured, (most likely by leather strips).
From the dual slots, I can ASSUME this item had some thing hanging from it that was pulled (the worn holes from some thing being pulled through them) up.
As for the symbols try looking at rugs tapestry etc. They may show up in such.

What ever it was it held a tapestry or some other item that was rolled up and secured to it.


The mix in symbolism makes me wounder if this was not some movie prop. A bit strange combination of symbols. The wood look like it was sand blasted also.

Thats is what makes me think Spanish, Fountain of youth, Crosses, Stars and other decoration like seen on saddles. Other designs and the carvings also look Spanish. Put it all together and and I get old Florida Spanish dealing with a horse or mule. PS. the Spanish saddles from the 1600 -1700's looked similar to medevil saddles.

 

[BuckleBoy]

Re: re: jimb's post - A Real Stumper

So the "experts" have concluded that the piece likely isn't any NEWER than 1400 C.E. ? May I ask who looked at the piece?


-Buckleboy

 

[RELICDUDE07]

Re: re: jimb's post - A Real Stumper

That god with a head in each arm is just flat out strange.It looks like hades king of the dead.It may have been made for a movie prop like charmed or a witchcraft film.. If its as old as you say it is,then it could be a guillotine or water board for torture.But also in that time period 1400s,if someone wanted to kill someone it only took 1 second and 1 swipe from a sword to take a head off.Thats all i can come up with on this one...I dont think someone would go through all the work to make so many symbols on it for a wagon , or anything else but to have some sort magic help from the symbols in its use.

 

[roswellborn]

Re: re: jimb's post - A Real Stumper

That god with a head in each arm is just flat out strange.It looks like hades king of the dead.It may have been made for a movie prop like charmed or a witchcraft film.. If its as old as you say it is,then it could be a guillotine or water board for torture.But also in that time period 1400s,if someone wanted to kill someone it only took 1 second and 1 swipe from a sword to take a head off.Thats all i can come up with on this one...I dont think someone would go through all the work to make so many symbols on it for a wagon , or anything else but to have some sort magic help from the symbols in its use.

Wasn't the guillotine invented sometime in the late 1700s? Oh fiddle, I'll look it up to be sure.

Wow! from this site:
http://www.capitalpunishmentuk.org/guillotine.html
"Dr. Joseph Ignace Guillotin did not invent the execution machine that bears his name.
A similar device known as the Halifax Gibbet had been in use in that Yorkshire town since 1286 and continued until 1650. It was noticed by a Scotsman, James Douglas Earl of Morton, who had one built in Edinburgh in 1556, which became known as the Maiden and remained in use until 1710.
There is a credible recording of an execution by a similar machine in Milan in 1702, and there are paintings of a guillotine like machine used in Nuremberg in the mid 1500's."

Apparently a "similar device" was around since 1286. Who'd a thunk it.

Very cool thingy, whatever it is.

HH
Nan

 

[KTMRIDER]

Re: re: jimb's post - A Real Stumper

Here are a couple closeups for ya Old Dog. I will get a couple more of other parts asap. The "eye of horus" was mentioned, good eye(no pun intended), I thought I had seen this also(near bottom, center) but was never sure.

One of the experts was an appraiser at an antiques show that specialized in this type of thing, the other was, I think, president of GA State Historical Society, both examined this in person, both suggested 12-14c. There have been many others, a couple of whom that had degrees in history and other associated fields.
I had checked out the idea of "torture/punishment device" and the website mentioned years ago, i even have a postcard from this place. All of these devices(that I saw) were plain and simple.
I would love to get this carbon dated and checked for DNA...have checked into it, many $$$$$.
All very good suggestions, guesses, etc. Many thanks again to all that have contributed so far, please keep 'em comin'. I do enjoy the WAG's and the funny stuff also.
Can anyone ID the vegetation that goes across the top?

 

[KTMRIDER]

Re: re: jimb's post - A Real Stumper

Middle view:

 

[KTMRIDER]

Re: re: jimb's post - A Real Stumper

Side view:

 

[KTMRIDER]

Re: re: jimb's post - A Real Stumper

Another interesting view: