re: jimbs post - A Real Stumper

[KTMRIDER]

re: jimb's post - A Real Stumper

I have seen how ya'll enjoy a challenge, so here's one for ya. I have spent countless hours of research on this over the past 10 years or so, sent pics to universities, museums and "experts" all over the world to no avail. Would love to know what it is or what it was used for. I have ideas/guesses but will hold off on these for now. It measures 48 inches wide by 18 in. tall(not counting iron hooks) by 1 1/2" thick tapering to 3/4". Please study the carvings/symbols/ideograms/etc., maybe you can identify some of these and their meanings, such as what type of cross? what type leaves/plant coming out of the urn at top, sun symbols? etc. The Pentagrams/pentacles are a given. I have compared the many carvings with coins, monies, stamps and art from all over the world and again I have my own ideas/guesses but will hold off on those too for now, don't want to influence anyone else's opinions/guesses. Maybe you know of someone/someplace that could be of help? BTW, this(researching this thing) is what brought me to this wonderful site in the first place and this site prompted me to dig out my old MD. Thanks for looking and Have fun! I plan to offer reward $$$ for positive ID of this.

 

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[KTMRIDER]

Re: re: jimb's post - A Real Stumper

3rd row, left pic is looking straight down on top, these "plugs" go all the way across and appear to be horse hair? and were, I'm guessing, possibly longer as in tassels? that have been worn or cut off. Also, next to last pic appears to be numbers, looks like 1235 or 1236 to me. This thing has been estimated(by "experts") to be 12th - 14th century. If anyone would like another close-up image of a particular area, just let me know.

 

[Montana Jim]

Re: re: jimb's post - A Real Stumper

Did I miss what this thing is made from?

Is it wood or iron?

 

[QUICKSILVER (appletree)]

Re: re: jimb's post - A Real Stumper

Is it part of a wagon? did it have chains hanging from the hooks and through the square holes?

 

[KTMRIDER]

Re: re: jimb's post - A Real Stumper

It is made of wood(one piece) with iron attachments. It may be helpful though if I knew what species of wood.
It is as found. I am assuming that there were several things such as straps that would have attached to it.

 

[shaun7]

Re: re: jimb's post - A Real Stumper

it looks big enough to stand on

 

[mojjax]

Re: re: jimb's post - A Real Stumper

Interesting ..... where did you get it ?

 

[Montana Jim]

Re: re: jimb's post - A Real Stumper

Did a lil googleing and found 13th century caskets that appeared similar.

Maybe a piece of or replicated section of old coffin/cabinet will be my S.W.A.G of the month.

http://www.geocities.com/chestsandcaskets/catalogueofextantchestsandcaskets.html

Scroll down through the pics.

I dunno if you're right or not Blacksheep, but that was some super sluthing you did! I can see exactly what you were thinking.

Welcome to TreasureNet...

 

[txkickergirl]

Re: re: jimb's post - A Real Stumper

it is a pretty design, not a clue what it could be.

 

[BuckleBoy]

Re: re: jimb's post - A Real Stumper

Because of the elaborate use of symbols, my hunch is that it is a religious piece of some sort...and I think just-geese was on a good track up above...


Is it a holder for the Torah?


It could also be a part of a choir stand--with the hooks keeping the choir books in place by twisting upward and holding the covers of the book down to the panel. Most of these just had a ledge which held the book though...

Voice parts were written individually in the books (rather than the score form we use today with choir music, back then they were more like orchestra parts--and each person could only see their own part.) They did this to save vellum--since it was a valuable commodity.




Are the hooks flat and flush with the surface of the panel, or are they both curved upward away from the panel? Do they swivel?



-Buckleboy

 

[Zephyr]

Re: re: jimb's post - A Real Stumper

I was thinking that it was a headstock to a bell, but it's too ornate (and not the right shape.)

 

[RELICDUDE07]

Re: re: jimb's post - A Real Stumper

 

[trikikiwi]

Re: re: jimb's post - A Real Stumper

I will follow this with interest.

Nice find KTM. Would be great to hear how you found it.
Also any chance of individual pics of each side to allow me to zoom into specific areas?

Mike

 

[KTMRIDER]

Re: re: jimb's post - A Real Stumper

Because of the elaborate use of symbols, my hunch is that it is a religious piece of some sort...and I think just-geese was on a good track up above...


Is it a holder for the Torah?
It could also be a part of a choir stand--with the hooks keeping the choir books in place by twisting upward and holding the covers of the book down to the panel. Most of these just had a ledge which held the book though...






-Buckleboy

Thought of this at one time, and have been kinda leaning towards this and a couple other things. Hhaven't looked into the Torah yet though...but will in a minute. Thanks for the link BB.

I was thinking that it was a headstock to a bell, but it's too ornate (and not the right shape.)

Thought of this too, good guess Zephyr.

Did a lil googleing and found 13th century caskets that appeared similar.

Maybe a piece of or replicated section of old coffin/cabinet will be my S.W.A.G of the month.

http://www.geocities.com/chestsandcaskets/catalogueofextantchestsandcaskets.html

Scroll down through the pics.

Hadn't thought of this one, but most of the carvings are used to symbolize life and death.

Considering the designs and openings I would say a panel from a very old confessional

I do think it is religious.

Interesting ..... where did you get it ?

Picked it up at an auction in Daytona, FL. They got it out of a delinquent storage unit. One thought I had about this is that possibly a soldier brought this home. One guess I had was Serbia or somewhere in that vicinity.

I will follow this with interest.

Nice find KTM. Would be great to hear how you found it.
Also any chance of individual pics of each side to allow me to zoom into specific areas?


Mike

I will try Mike, I may have to borrow a better camera, mine is not that good.


Thanks to all that have contributed so far, keep 'em comin'!

 

[KTMRIDER]

Re: re: jimb's post - A Real Stumper

This is a good one Relic,(re: 3rd pic down). My very first thoughts(and still being considered) were that it may have been a restraint used in ritual or sacrifice.

 

[RELICDUDE07]

Re: re: jimb's post - A Real Stumper

I think its was to kill witches.wican

 

[trikikiwi]

Re: re: jimb's post - A Real Stumper

This is a good one Relic,(re: 3rd pic down). My very first thoughts(and still being considered) were that it may have been a restraint used in ritual or sacrifice.

I think its was to kill witches.wican

straps, ropes, hooks - it all adds up

Does it?

 

[QUICKSILVER (appletree)]

Re: re: jimb's post - A Real Stumper

it looks to me to be 1938

 

[desertmoons]

Re: re: jimb's post - A Real Stumper

i can not make out some of the symbol. However there seem to be a wide variety. It made me think of the rosicurions or other mystical orders like golden dawn.

Have you sent pics to the Brtish Museum as it seems to medieval?

It hangs down, with hooks, straps and perhaps even horsehair rope. Or the horsehair plugs could have been plumes?
Piece of a carrriage?

 

[BuckleBoy]

Re: re: jimb's post - A Real Stumper

It has alot of wica symbols,i would keep it in the garage.You can pm me for the place to send the check more like made by a wican to be used on others.....  http://www.spelwerx.com/symbols.html

A photo of a torture victim??!!

LOL Dude, I think you're off base here!  Wicca is a NEOpagan religion started in the 50's in England by Gardner.  The pentagram has been used by hundreds of religious and non-religious groups since the Sumerians.  The Christians used it to represent the five senses, and it also represented health, humanity, and countless other things...I think the inverted pentagram is what you're thinking of.  Inverted, it is a symbol associated with Satanism--but even when the inverted pentagram appears in Wiccan practice as a symbol, it has absolutely no association with Satanism whatsoever.  Besides, the artifact in question bears none of the other numerological references to witchcraft OR satanism, AND it's at least half a millenium older than Gardnerian practice of the Craft.

I'm blowing the BS meter on this one.  I think you're either confusing your symbols, or religions, or inserting personal fears and beliefs into the discussion instead of facts.  There are excellent articles on wikipedia on both Wicca and the Pentagram if you are interested in more information.


KTM, take it out of your garage and enjoy it--whatever the heck it is, it's a pretty darned cool piece.


P.S.--I think "coffin fragment" is a good guess too, as someone said up above.



-Buckleboy