Peter's Canyon, The Jeauits, and the Lost Dutchman

[LDWhitneyAuthor]

Greetings LDWhitney,
Until his mine location can be found and 'verified', his clues may or may not be true. Those searching for his mine are searching in locations based on 2 of his clues, a South to North flowing canyon(Boulder/Needles/LaBarge), and you could see Weavers Needle due South. You are correct, 'why' not Peters Canyon as this 'fits' these 2 clues. Another clue of his advises his mine is within a 5 mi circle, with Weavers Needle at its center. What if the characters 'heard' it wrong or the provider of the clue purposely 'changed' a part of it and they went 5 miles due
North of Weavers Needle?
Fact or fiction, you have a Great storyline you are pursuing.

Thanks for your comment! I actually was looking through your posts about the Sombrero Mine and Peter's Canyon. I was delighted to see how much lined up with my own plot ideas. In Estee Conaster's "The Sterling Legend", the author mentions that Peters Canyon is within the 5 mile radius of Weevers Needle. I may be wrong, but I feel like on your post I read you had a 2.5 mile radius, making a 5 mile circumference. I believe the circle is actually 10 miles in circumference, with a 5 mile radius. That might actually line up better with your own clues. I'll check through my books to see if I can verify what I said. Anyways, much appreciated!

 

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[LDWhitneyAuthor]

Greetings LDWhitney,
Until his mine location can be found and 'verified', his clues may or may not be true. Those searching for his mine are searching in locations based on 2 of his clues, a South to North flowing canyon(Boulder/Needles/LaBarge), and you could see Weavers Needle due South. You are correct, 'why' not Peters Canyon as this 'fits' these 2 clues. Another clue of his advises his mine is within a 5 mi circle, with Weavers Needle at its center. What if the characters 'heard' it wrong or the provider of the clue purposely 'changed' a part of it and they went 5 miles due
North of Weavers Needle?
Fact or fiction, you have a Great storyline you are pursuing.

Using the clues as described on Desert USA, it is indeed a 5 mile radius/10 mile diameter. I attached a photo that shows the North/South section of Peters Canyon (the red line) is almost entirely withing the 5 mile radius of Weavers Needle.

But maybe you knew that already and I'm confused. If thays the case, ignore me! Hahahaha

 

[ancientones]

Using the clues as described on Desert USA, it is indeed a 5 mile radius/10 mile diameter. I attached a photo that shows the North/South section of Peters Canyon (the red line) is almost entirely withing the 5 mile radius of Weavers Needle.

But maybe you knew that already and I'm confused. If thays the case, ignore me! Hahahaha

LDWhitney,
Please check my recent threads(Is the LDM the Sombrero Mine & The Sombrero Mine), just my research and thoughts on the LDM. I was born in Phx. in 1955 and 'researched' growing up, but no interest in going looking for it. I remember
'his' clues to the mine as well as some of the others. Today, these same clues are now 'suspect' to the experts due to
the mine not being found, and the different interpretations of these clues are recognized as mainstream. Those that visited the site provided detailed clues on how to find it and what to see when there. Jacob Waltz was no exception. The spot I believe his mine is at fits his clues-other than the 5 mi. clue. He advises the 'setting sun will shine into the mine' it is on the East side of the canyon, the ledge is facing 'West" so the setting sun would shine into the mine. He was asked 'what do you see when you exit the mine' and he replied 'nothing'. Subject to interpretation, the mine is on the edge of a 50ft? cliff, you are facing this open air view when you exit the mine so would see nothing. This cliff forms a waterfall, and this wash below would be a good place to pan this runoff.
The story and true clues to this mine are extensive and no doubt it is out there. With Apache killing invaders, Mexican miners here illegally, the Great threads about this mine that everyone provides are a 'Gold Mine' for stories.
Good luck and Great success!

 

[ancientones]

Thanks for your comment! I actually was looking through your posts about the Sombrero Mine and Peter's Canyon. I was delighted to see how much lined up with my own plot ideas. In Estee Conaster's "The Sterling Legend", the author mentions that Peters Canyon is within the 5 mile radius of Weevers Needle. I may be wrong, but I feel like on your post I read you had a 2.5 mile radius, making a 5 mile circumference. I believe the circle is actually 10 miles in circumference, with a 5 mile radius. That might actually line up better with your own clues. I'll check through my books to see if I can verify what I said. Anyways, much appreciated!

LDWhitney,
Maybe my instructions were not clear, I apologize. There is a 5 mile clue. The common one I see is from an Adolph Ruth story, mentions the 5 mi. circle with the needle at its 'center'. I grew up remembering the clue as 5 mi of/from Weavers needle. If you look at his other 2 'location' clues, Peters is a South to North flowing canyon, and they used
a compass, due 'Magnetic' South is the Needle. A little more 'clarity' to its location and the Needle. This is the only location clue of his that could be in 2 places, Boulder/Needle at 2 1/2 mi and Peters at 5 mi. I found the Mexican Sombrero mine, and much evidence of the mining activity. There is no 'other' place out here that could have this many 'detailed' clues. 2 1/2 or 5 is the only question mark-check 'em both and you are correct-why did none of
the old timers check 5 miles?

 

[Idahodutch]

LDWhitney,
Maybe my instructions were not clear, I apologize. There is a 5 mile clue. The common one I see is from an Adolph Ruth story, mentions the 5 mi. circle with the needle at its 'center'. I grew up remembering the clue as 5 mi of/from Weavers needle. If you look at his other 2 'location' clues, Peters is a South to North flowing canyon, and they used
a compass, due 'Magnetic' South is the Needle. A little more 'clarity' to its location and the Needle. This is the only location clue of his that could be in 2 places, Boulder/Needle at 2 1/2 mi and Peters at 5 mi. I found the Mexican Sombrero mine, and much evidence of the mining activity. There is no 'other' place out here that could have this many 'detailed' clues. 2 1/2 or 5 is the only question mark-check 'em both and you are correct-why did none of
the old timers check 5 miles?

Guys,
The clue concerning the “imaginary 5 mile circle”, comes from the January 1895 San Francisco Chronicle article, by P.C. Bicknell.

If you read the article, the 5 mile circle comes up in the introductory part of the article. I used to think that the “5 mile circle” info, came from Waltz.
Not until rereading the article recently …. Many times 🤓, did I come to the conclusion that maybe that’s not correct.

Just my opinion, but it actually sounds like just part of Bicknell’s lead in, to the story as relayed to him, by “the woman”.
The accounts as relayed by “the woman”, don’t start until later in the article.
My guess, is that Bicknell had already interviewed many about the LDM, and Bicknell’s personal assessment, is that it lies in that 5 mile circle (not 10). 🥴

The reason for the area (in my opinion) is because of the monumented trail, and the general consensus of where (what area) those directions lead. There was no Holmes Manuscript, at that time and would not be for several decades to come. Pretty much, any information would have come from Julia (imho, the woman from Bick’s article), and Rhiney.

The monumented trail, according to that same article, was used by Waltz and Weiser to locate the mine. Then shortly after, they threw down all the monuments. So the directions are for a trail that was but is … no longer marked with monuments.

The 5 mile circle, is a conclusion ….. question is whose conclusion, Waltz’ or Bicknell’s?

If I were you guys, I might try and see if those directions even can get you anywhere close to where you are talking 😁
Ignore (temporarily) the 5 mile circle, and see where you get ….

Then it is up to you to decide where to go when it comes time for boots on the ground to verify your research, or rule it out.

I have not seen the math behind anyone’s work, that adds up to Peters Mesa, and Canyon areas.
If you are able to come up with the math, I would love to see it 👍🤓
Sincerely,
Idahodutch

 

[Idahodutch]

I meant to add this, here is a quote of a different thread post, with a copy of that 1895 article, for reference.

Here is a transcription of the 1895 article from Bicknell

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View attachment 1920890

 

[ancientones]

I meant to add this, here is a quote of a different thread post, with a copy of that 1895 article, for reference.

Idahodutch,
Unlike the detailed maps of the Mexican miners, the Dutchman, Indian and other clues were verbal.
Was Julia present when Jacob died, was he 'sane' when he provided the clues, would those present that
heard the clues repeat them exactly word for word where a billion in gold was? Too many chances thru time to be 'changed', interpreted differently, or purposely misstated. For the Mexican clues, they are detailed to this location and were 'made' by a people that were good at what they do. There have been many of the verbal clues of this mine found. They are 'generally' in the same area, 2 1/2 miles North from/of the Needle. They are scattered and not specific to a location or 'other' clues at that same place. At the Sombrero mine the clues match in description and location at the site. Other than their maps, there are 'sign' all over this site of their presence. The other Dutchman clues line up, his detail of this 'site' is spot on. This is 4.90? miles due North(magnetic) of Weavers Needle. I gave up on this 10? years ago, could not get 'experts' interested because I was 'in the wrong place'. I just retired so thought I would jump back in. The experts also advise the only way to verify the LDM is with ore, a violation of the Wilderness Act. I do not know if the 'tailings' can be tested at the site, if an XRF Analyzer would work, if enough 'tailing' dirt could be cleared to send a drone or someone crawl into the shaft-this is the only challenge, and it would need a 3rd party 'verification'. 2 1/2 miles or 5 miles from the Needle, just check both . There is not 'another' rich gold mine in here with the 'same' clues, I am 68 now and unable to go back in and anything I bring out would need to be verified 'where' it came from-3rd party.
I have done the hard part, just can't get the last 75 feet .
Thanks for the post and if I can assist please let me know, other than hiking back out.

 

[Clay Diggins]

The experts also advise the only way to verify the LDM is with ore, a violation of the Wilderness Act.

This is a common misunderstanding I see repeated often on these and other forums. The Wilderness Act specifically allows prospecting, including taking mineral samples for testing.

From the special provisions section 2 of the Wilderness Act

(2) Nothing in this Act shall prevent within national forest wilderness areas any activity, including prospecting, for the purpose of gathering information about mineral or other resources, if such activity is carried on in a manner compatible with the preservation of the wilderness environment.

16 U.S. Code § 1133 - Use of wilderness areas

www.law.cornell.edu

 

[Idahodutch]

Idahodutch,
Unlike the detailed maps of the Mexican miners, the Dutchman, Indian and other clues were verbal.
Was Julia present when Jacob died, was he 'sane' when he provided the clues, would those present that
heard the clues repeat them exactly word for word where a billion in gold was? Too many chances thru time to be 'changed', interpreted differently, or purposely misstated. For the Mexican clues, they are detailed to this location and were 'made' by a people that were good at what they do. There have been many of the verbal clues of this mine found. They are 'generally' in the same area, 2 1/2 miles North from/of the Needle. They are scattered and not specific to a location or 'other' clues at that same place. At the Sombrero mine the clues match in description and location at the site. Other than their maps, there are 'sign' all over this site of their presence. The other Dutchman clues line up, his detail of this 'site' is spot on. This is 4.90? miles due North(magnetic) of Weavers Needle. I gave up on this 10? years ago, could not get 'experts' interested because I was 'in the wrong place'. I just retired so thought I would jump back in. The experts also advise the only way to verify the LDM is with ore, a violation of the Wilderness Act. I do not know if the 'tailings' can be tested at the site, if an XRF Analyzer would work, if enough 'tailing' dirt could be cleared to send a drone or someone crawl into the shaft-this is the only challenge, and it would need a 3rd party 'verification'. 2 1/2 miles or 5 miles from the Needle, just check both . There is not 'another' rich gold mine in here with the 'same' clues, I am 68 now and unable to go back in and anything I bring out would need to be verified 'where' it came from-3rd party.
I have done the hard part, just can't get the last 75 feet .
Thanks for the post and if I can assist please let me know, other than hiking back out.

Hello ancient ones,
Sounds like we have similar stories …. Similar obstacles.

I was only responding, because of the application of a clue about the 5 mile circle was being discussed. Like you, I am aware of the challenge of identifying a find, without digging in a wilderness area.

Clues can only get you so far, even if they are all matching up.
Without clues, or if some seem to fit, but not others, or fit with modifications ….. this is where we get all the “I found it” claims from.

I do not in any way discount your find. I do think that your desire to see if it is perhaps associated with the LDM, has you perhaps stretching LDM clue(s) some.

I don’t know details about the sombrero mine, and as far as I know, you may have found it. 👍😁

There are clues, that I think prevent the “monumented trail” from getting the distance to reach your area.

It should be noted that if we are talking the 5 mile circle, then by association, we are talking the entire 1895 article. 🤓
In that light, the part where you go up the first tributary to the east.
It gave brief description of the tributary canyon, then says they continued up the tributary with difficulty until the rock chipping noises.

They never got far enough into the tributary canyon, to get to the part where it opens up …. near the little red hills, and Bluff Springs Mountain.
That’s because the mine was back by where they heard the rock chipping noises….. remember this is all because of the 5 mile clue ….. it is all part of the same article.
The article says 5 miles is the diameter, with weavers needle at the center.🥹

So, now maybe you understand why I would like to learn how you (or anybody) were able to get past the red hills, without changing something. ☺️

 

[ancientones]

Hello ancient ones,
Sounds like we have similar stories …. Similar obstacles.

I was only responding, because of the application of a clue about the 5 mile circle was being discussed. Like you, I am aware of the challenge of identifying a find, without digging in a wilderness area.

Clues can only get you so far, even if they are all matching up.
Without clues, or if some seem to fit, but not others, or fit with modifications ….. this is where we get all the “I found it” claims from.

I do not in any way discount your find. I do think that your desire to see if it is perhaps associated with the LDM, has you perhaps stretching LDM clue(s) some.

I don’t know details about the sombrero mine, and as far as I know, you may have found it. 👍😁

There are clues, that I think prevent the “monumented trail” from getting the distance to reach your area.

It should be noted that if we are talking the 5 mile circle, then by association, we are talking the entire 1895 article. 🤓
In that light, the part where you go up the first tributary to the east.
It gave brief description of the tributary canyon, then says they continued up the tributary with difficulty until the rock chipping noises.

They never got far enough into the tributary canyon, to get to the part where it opens up …. near the little red hills, and Bluff Springs Mountain.
That’s because the mine was back by where they heard the rock chipping noises….. remember this is all because of the 5 mile clue ….. it is all part of the same article.
The article says 5 miles is the diameter, with weavers needle at the center.🥹

So, now maybe you understand why I would like to learn how you (or anybody) were able to get past the red hills, without changing something. ☺️

Idahodutch,
I did not put stock into the verbal clues, other than S to N flowing canyon, Weavers 'due' South, and the 5 mi. circle clue. A 1000 prospectors have searched the 2 1/2 mi clue for 100 years with no success, other than a rock
clue or 2 and etching/maps on a rock. At 5 miles I have the same clues as above, and once to the site the others were clear and detailed and fit. The 3 red hills I assume are the 3 teepees Indian clue, but too vague for someone hiking in to know if they were the same hills, unless the other clues are there. So if you are coming into this site from the South(Dutchman trail), and the 3 Teepees high up on a hill' are the 3 red hills(the teepees are red), they are just
North pass the site so this would fit. I came in up Peters following the Mexican trail per the Peralta Stone map. The LDM clues are true, but with limited topography tools those in the field trying to explain rocks or washes and their interpretation for others to follow is why the mine has not been found. I started off looking for the LDM, but all those looking before me with the same clues had no luck. I saw the Mexican mining activity and focused on the Sombrero, the clues of this mine by those that were here, and why.

 

[ancientones]

Idahodutch,
I did not put stock into the verbal clues, other than S to N flowing canyon, Weavers 'due' South, and the 5 mi. circle clue. A 1000 prospectors have searched the 2 1/2 mi clue for 100 years with no success, other than a rock
clue or 2 and etching/maps on a rock. At 5 miles I have the same clues as above, and once to the site the others were clear and detailed and fit. The 3 red hills I assume are the 3 teepees Indian clue, but too vague for someone hiking in to know if they were the same hills, unless the other clues are there. So if you are coming into this site from the South(Dutchman trail), and the 3 Teepees high up on a hill' are the 3 red hills(the teepees are red), they are just
North pass the site so this would fit. I came in up Peters following the Mexican trail per the Peralta Stone map. The LDM clues are true, but with limited topography tools those in the field trying to explain rocks or washes and their interpretation for others to follow is why the mine has not been found. I started off looking for the LDM, but all those looking before me with the same clues had no luck. I saw the Mexican mining activity and focused on the Sombrero, the clues of this mine by those that were here, and why.

For those wanting to 'verify' the mine.
I have been advised by some that 20 to 40 pounds of tailings would be needed to 'test'.
This would verify the gold, but not 'where' it came from. Per the Tonto Forest Service 10+ years ago, I cannot do this
anyway. 'If' there is a 'legal' way to test a site and provide proof' it came from a specific mine, that is for those that
can make it happen. Too much runaround for me, hiking and finding this site(Sombrero) was hard enough. It will require a permit from the FS, the evidence would go public and they 'will' verify the location and what was done to obtain it. You will need a 3rd party to 'verify' what was found at 'that' location. If able to remove the tailings partially blocking the entrance you may be able to go back 75 ft and take pics to prove both, again, with a 3rd party to say
the picture was taken here. Pictures only go so far, I have a bunch.
If this is not the LDM, I would still like to see what is inside this last mine the Mexicans updated their maps for, took the risk coming back into the Country to mine, and the cave of gold the Indians spoke of.

 

[Clay Diggins]

For those wanting to 'verify' the mine.
I have been advised by some that 20 to 40 pounds of tailings would be needed to 'test'.
This would verify the gold, but not 'where' it came from. Per the Tonto Forest Service 10+ years ago, I cannot do this
anyway. 'If' there is a 'legal' way to test a site and provide proof' it came from a specific mine, that is for those that
can make it happen. Too much runaround for me, hiking and finding this site(Sombrero) was hard enough. It will require a permit from the FS, the evidence would go public and they 'will' verify the location and what was done to obtain it. You will need a 3rd party to 'verify' what was found at 'that' location. If able to remove the tailings partially blocking the entrance you may be able to go back 75 ft and take pics to prove both, again, with a 3rd party to say
the picture was taken here. Pictures only go so far, I have a bunch.
If this is not the LDM, I would still like to see what is inside this last mine the Mexicans updated their maps for, took the risk coming back into the Country to mine, and the cave of gold the Indians spoke of.

You are correct. An assay will not tell which mine it came from.

You do not need a permit to prospect wilderness. There is no such permit and the law is clear that you can prospect in wilderness without a permit. Geologists and mining companies do it frequently. The results of your assay are always private unless you choose to share them.

Your theory about tons of ore needed for an assay needs rethinking. If that was true you would have to explain how the matchbox was assayed - I'm pretty sure it didn't originally weigh "tons". If you just want to know the composition of the ore a non destructive XRF analysis can be done with a very small sample tucked in your pack or pocket. All perfectly legal.

Here's a link to my friend's info site on mineral assays. Chris is a well known and respected mining engineer who goes out of his way to help small prospectors better understand the mining business.

 

[ConceptualizedNetherlandr]

Correct me if I misunderstand. The bottom line with the paperwork is that someone might have tried to make a claim ( or supposedly so) but it in any case no proper claim was made. So it remains clue - 'ish' as to a location where someone thought there was mineralization indicating to them a potential mine site. Or it might have been a clever ruse. How are we to discern?

 

[sdcfia]

"Never let the truth get in the way of a good story." Mark Twain's famous quote, right? Sure, everyone knows it. Oops. When you look past the propaganda, you find that Twain never said this. It sprung from an old Irish tradition when storytellers ended their tale with something like this: "That's my story and if there's a lie there, so be it, for it wasn't me that composed it."

Clay Diggins, thank you for demonstrating that with the proper mindset and resources, actual facts are verifiable. Human nature and poor training leads to cognitive dissonance, a hurdle particularly present in "treasure hunting."

 

[ancientones]

You are correct. An assay will not tell which mine it came from.

You do not need a permit to prospect wilderness. There is no such permit and the law is clear that you can prospect in wilderness without a permit. Geologists and mining companies do it frequently. The results of your assay are always private unless you choose to share them.

Your theory about tons of ore needed for an assay needs rethinking. If that was true you would have to explain how the matchbox was assayed - I'm pretty sure it didn't originally weigh "tons". If you just want to know the composition of the ore a non destructive XRF analysis can be done with a very small sample tucked in your pack or pocket. All perfectly legal.

Here's a link to my friend's info site on mineral assays. Chris is a well known and re spected mining engineer who goes o ut of his way to help small prospectors better understand the mining business.

ClaADiggins,

or, I 'questioned' a five mile clue

You are correct. An assay will not tell which mine it came from.

You do not need a permit to prospect wilderness. There is no such permit and the law is clear that you can prospect in wilderness without a permit. Geologists and mining companies do it frequently. The results of your assay are always private unless you choose to share them.

Your theory about tons of ore needed for an assay needs rethinking. If that was true you would have to explain how the matchbox was assayed - I'm pretty sure it didn't originally weigh "tons". If you just want to know the composition of the ore a non destructive XRF analysis can be done with a very small sample tucked in your pack or pocket. All perfectly legal.

Here's a link to my friend's info site on mineral assays. Chris is a well known and respected mining engineer who goes out of his way to help small prospectors better understand the mining business.

Clay Diggins,
Appreciate the reply. I am not a prospector so this would not assist. This is 'Wilderness" now and unable to file a claim. Per the experts, the only gold that really matters is what is at the end of the 75 ft shaft-per the legend/story, and can you get a Permit to move the dirt from the entrance to see. This was done by a group in 2004, after the 20 yr McCain extension, but the mine was not LDM. The FS advised me 10 yrs ago I could not obtain a permit to do the same here. If material from the site or XRF Analyzer would help add a piece to the puzzle, the 'clues' to the site would need to be there as well, the material I provided is for the Sombrero Mine and the clues from this site I could match. Google Earth shows many of these clues, just as described. My pics are for the viewer to see the site and where many of the clues fit. The rest is for the experts to figure out, too difficult for the little guys.
Excuse the frustration and hope my material is of help. Like I said in my story, finding the Sombrero mine was the easy part.
Good Luck and Happy Trails.

 

[Ramiro valdez]

Well, I personally can not disagree with Clay, good work! I also agree with the author when saying that peter’s canyon doesn’t contain the LDM. Missed information can lead to miss direction every time someone passes on information. Going back to the original starting point maybe necessary. The discovery of the first stone map by Peralta described the needle as a pointer. It’s believed to have been discovered in the early part of the 1840’s. The Peralta’s stone map doesn’t talk about Peter’s canyon, but it does describe needle’s left edge pointing towards the northeast as the first coordinate in search for the rock horse. It gives you directions to find a section of the Salt River that faces north containing a crossing in order establish the second coordinate that will intercept the first coordinate defining the exact location of the hidden rock horse area. So why so interested in Peter’s canyon? I’ll tell you why! Because the two crosses found there have been generating attention and no one knows their purpose. I believe that the San Miguel mission was built with surrounding fortified walls. It was destroyed twice and partially burned down during the 1680 revolt. You might ask yourself? Where do we get broken stones and crosses constructed by a mason used in an old church? That’s the reason why you can’t properly date the stone that were found. They were reused for a different purpose. But let’s talk about the crosses first! Do you know what two crosses mean, to a Templar? No! It means double crossed and that’s not good! A cross found up side down means the same thing! And so is a cross pointing in the wrong direction! The Templars learned to use the cross for cipher messaging. It was first used to mark the position and direction of troupes on a map? Does that make sense? It does and if you don’t know how to read crosses, then you will be at a lost! The two crosses found near Peter’s canyon were obviously not supposed be there, but someone left them there? Why did this happen! Easy, one cross said that the treasure belongs to all the churches of Santa Fe. We know that the San Miguel Mission was the head of all the churches in Santa Fe. But that is not going to get us any closer to the goldmine. The second cross has cipher symbolic symbols found on the stone maps that were being used on the cross itself to convey a different cipher message instructing the Templar to dig the two burials in ordered to locate the stones that contain the complete symbolic cipher message of how to locate the goldmine first before embarking on a trail which lead them out of the goldmine towards the east in search of other buried treasure located in Virginia. So neither cross was going to take you anywhere near the goldmine. Why! Because you had been double crossed!!!! Intentionally! And now the crosses and stones are back together again. Figure that! I can hear my ears ringing! LOLL! Someone is probably thinking! I don’t see two crosses on the stone map!!!! Well, look again! So lm going to save you the trouble! The Apache camp was located 90 plus miles to the north verifying that the large map was more than 100 square miles. One starting positional cross ( or X ) representing a stoping point was attached to the Apache trail which lead down the River valley across the salt River towards the western side of needle attached to a mathematical equation with an ending stoping cross ( or X ) at the peralta trailhead entrance. The cipher clue that would complete the massage was the mathematical equation that equals 9. The 9 represents 9 more miles towards the south beyond the Peralta trailhead ending by an old trail we call Hwy 60 where the rest of the stones were found except two missing positional crosses which were supposed to be there to identify the burial mounds.The stones were made to identify the LDM’s location by using two coordinates and a sea level position. The stones do not carry information or descriptions pertaining to trails that may lead you to the LDM. The first ground trail description was an addition made by Peralta which described the way to the goldmine passed on to Jacob Waltz and then Waltz added two more different ways in approaching the gold mine for security reasons. The stone map takes precedence over the trails because it can direct you to the goldmine by using coordinates which is much easier than following a trail and more precise when using a compass leading you into the immediate area that surrounds the rock horse which contains the face of the entrance to the hidden canyon that can be verified by two funnel shaped eyes and a pointed nose from a certain position above the mountain range. There was no bodies on the ground so their crosses were probably set facing north to complement the trail? Who ever took them got double crossed! For not knowing how to read cipher symbols or crosses! They were technically just two broken crosses and if you took them north towards to Peter’s canyon then you went the wrong way! Setting others to fail! The one who ciphered the cross new what he was doing and the way he did it gives evidence of knowing how to read the stones. From now on every time someone directs someone in the wrong direction I’m going to say Nope! Not correct! Not true! Not right! Not going to happen! With an extra message as to why? But not because your going in the wrong direction, but because your leading others in the wrong direction. Not true! I’m not going to do that! That would really be rude! It was just a slip of my mental frustration that doesn’t understand why people do the things they do. I’m going to fix that with a cold beer and I suggest that Clay drinks one too cause I sense his mental frustration. My apologies to the fictional book writer! For posting a little too much information that doesn’t pertain to Peter’s canyon, except the information about the crosses pertaining to Peter’s canyon. Hope that this doesn’t stop you from writing your book cause I enjoy fiction as well as nonfiction. The superstitious mountains have a lot of legends but I’m sorry to say no LDM’s. Good luck gentlemen!

 

[LDWhitneyAuthor]

Well, I personally can not disagree with Clay, good work! I also agree with the author when saying that peter’s canyon doesn’t contain the LDM. Missed information can lead to miss direction every time someone passes on information. Going back to the original starting point maybe necessary. The discovery of the first stone map by Peralta described the needle as a pointer. It’s believed to have been discovered in the early part of the 1840’s. The Peralta’s stone map doesn’t talk about Peter’s canyon, but it does describe needle’s left edge pointing towards the northeast as the first coordinate in search for the rock horse. It gives you directions to find a section of the Salt River that faces north containing a crossing in order establish the second coordinate that will intercept the first coordinate defining the exact location of the hidden rock horse area. So why so interested in Peter’s canyon? I’ll tell you why! Because the two crosses found there have been generating attention and no one knows their purpose. I believe that the San Miguel mission was built with surrounding fortified walls. It was destroyed twice and partially burned down during the 1680 revolt. You might ask yourself? Where do we get broken stones and crosses constructed by a mason used in an old church? That’s the reason why you can’t properly date the stone that were found. They were reused for a different purpose. But let’s talk about the crosses first! Do you know what two crosses mean, to a Templar? No! It means double crossed and that’s not good! A cross found up side down means the same thing! And so is a cross pointing in the wrong direction! The Templars learned to use the cross for cipher messaging. It was first used to mark the position and direction of troupes on a map? Does that make sense? It does and if you don’t know how to read crosses, then you will be at a lost! The two crosses found near Peter’s canyon were obviously not supposed be there, but someone left them there? Why did this happen! Easy, one cross said that the treasure belongs to all the churches of Santa Fe. We know that the San Miguel Mission was the head of all the churches in Santa Fe. But that is not going to get us any closer to the goldmine. The second cross has cipher symbolic symbols found on the stone maps that were being used on the cross itself to convey a different cipher message instructing the Templar to dig the two burials in ordered to locate the stones that contain the complete symbolic cipher message of how to locate the goldmine first before embarking on a trail which lead them out of the goldmine towards the east in search of other buried treasure located in Virginia. So neither cross was going to take you anywhere near the goldmine. Why! Because you had been double crossed!!!! Intentionally! And now the crosses and stones are back together again. Figure that! I can hear my ears ringing! LOLL! Someone is probably thinking! I don’t see two crosses on the stone map!!!! Well, look again! So lm going to save you the trouble! The Apache camp was located 90 plus miles to the north verifying that the large map was more than 100 square miles. One starting positional cross ( or X ) representing a stoping point was attached to the Apache trail which lead down the River valley across the salt River towards the western side of needle attached to a mathematical equation with an ending stoping cross ( or X ) at the peralta trailhead entrance. The cipher clue that would complete the massage was the mathematical equation that equals 9. The 9 represents 9 more miles towards the south beyond the Peralta trailhead ending by an old trail we call Hwy 60 where the rest of the stones were found except two missing positional crosses which were supposed to be there to identify the burial mounds.The stones were made to identify the LDM’s location by using two coordinates and a sea level position. The stones do not carry information or descriptions pertaining to trails that may lead you to the LDM. The first ground trail description was an addition made by Peralta which described the way to the goldmine passed on to Jacob Waltz and then Waltz added two more different ways in approaching the gold mine for security reasons. The stone map takes precedence over the trails because it can direct you to the goldmine by using coordinates which is much easier than following a trail and more precise when using a compass leading you into the immediate area that surrounds the rock horse which contains the face of the entrance to the hidden canyon that can be verified by two funnel shaped eyes and a pointed nose from a certain position above the mountain range. There was no bodies on the ground so their crosses were probably set facing north to complement the trail? Who ever took them got double crossed! For not knowing how to read cipher symbols or crosses! They were technically just two broken crosses and if you took them north towards to Peter’s canyon then you went the wrong way! Setting others to fail! The one who ciphered the cross new what he was doing and the way he did it gives evidence of knowing how to read the stones. From now on every time someone directs someone in the wrong direction I’m going to say Nope! Not correct! Not true! Not right! Not going to happen! With an extra message as to why? But not because your going in the wrong direction, but because your leading others in the wrong direction. Not true! I’m not going to do that! That would really be rude! It was just a slip of my mental frustration that doesn’t understand why people do the things they do. I’m going to fix that with a cold beer and I suggest that Clay drinks one too cause I sense his mental frustration. My apologies to the fictional book writer! For posting a little too much information that doesn’t pertain to Peter’s canyon, except the information about the crosses pertaining to Peter’s canyon. Hope that this doesn’t stop you from writing your book cause I enjoy fiction as well as nonfiction. The superstitious mountains have a lot of legends but I’m sorry to say no LDM’s. Good luck gentlemen!

Thanks so much for taking the time to write all this. It made for an interesting read and i appreciate teh encouragment. I am not personally convinced that the Peralta Stones are anything but elaboarte fakes, and the stone crosses as well. I don't necessarily intend to be a slave to the established lore, but have included nods to these many moving pieces of Dutchman Legend for the informed reader. My interest in Peter's Canyon is because it fits the narrative better as well as serving as a more out of the way location with fewer hikers than the main trails and canyons. Last time I hiked the Superstitions, I saw numerouos groups of people enjoying the outdoors. Great to see, but its hard to have tourists interrupting action and intrigue all the time. hahaha

 

[Doc4261]

There is a detailed account of the Bilbrey stone cross discovery. It is long and cannot be cut and pasted here but can be messaged to your LD WHITNEY fb page if that is acceptable.
Photo is original of the stone crosses.

Mr. Roberts, if ya can send me also. Always wanted to know more bout Bilbery.

 

[Doc4261]

Thanks so much for taking the time to write all this. It made for an interesting read and i appreciate teh encouragment. I am not personally convinced that the Peralta Stones are anything but elaboarte fakes, and the stone crosses as well. I don't necessarily intend to be a slave to the established lore, but have included nods to these many moving pieces of Dutchman Legend for the informed reader. My interest in Peter's Canyon is because it fits the narrative better as well as serving as a more out of the way location with fewer hikers than the main trails and canyons. Last time I hiked the Superstitions, I saw numerouos groups of people enjoying the outdoors. Great to see, but its hard to have tourists interrupting action and intrigue all the time. hahaha

The info on the stones are real. So are the crosses. They are places and all easily verifiable. Mr. Roberts is so with me on the mine on peters mesa. I've never been there but maps took me there. He was gracious enough to elaborate that there was a mine there in my lil spot I had cornered down as close as I could. It's not the Ldm. That mine is on the stones and the crosses. One and the same. When u figure the maps out it shows the area all the way to the 4 peaks. One very knowledgeable on the whole area made the maps and spent considerable time doing so. Perlalta maps , Jesuit maps. One got the info from the other. I'm in the inclination that the Peraltas had found or stumbled upon info from the Jesuits. Either way. There is a hella story to tell once you see all the prices of the puzzle. Everyone can come to their own conclusion. I got nothing to prove to no one. Just passing lil info piece by piece. The main Peralta mining complex was based in one area and many of the maps show it.
Mr. Roberts is a plethora of knowledge, I'm sure most of which you won't find a book on gov files. Listen and learn the lil stuff , it will paint a picture. Going off verifiable info will lead you to a dead end.

I started with why the Amethyst mine on 4 peaks was never know till refound ,but the stones ended up in the crown jewels. How does that happen.. Won't find it in a book.The answer is on the stone maps. If ya find the hidden map.
Opened a world that led me the answers to many mysteries that hadn't been answered. I found the info that opened the whole area of lost knowledge.

 

[ancientones]

The LDM clues and the many variances of these clues after told thru the years are the reason this mine has not been found.. The Peralta stones, specifically the ones for the map and Heart inlay, show the Junction of Peters Canyon and Tortilla Wash, and above this junction are the signs to the mine. The Inlay shows Peters Canyon with the mine on the East side, facing West, like a Dutchman clue and the setting sun. The Mexican mule trail enters from the West, crosses Peters, over this hilltop, and then enters Tortilla heading South. This is the curve on the stone 'for this trail'. The hilltop has been 'cleared' to make the signs stand out so they could be seen from the mountain tops. These were made 180 years ago. A couple sketch maps line up as well to Peters canyon and this mine site. The 'symbols' I show are visible on Google Earth. The evidence of Mexican mining activity in here during the 1840s fits the stories as well. Apache massacre or US Territory, they had to leave. They made a point to document this rich mine. I understand
if this may not be the LDM, this is a Mexican mine that other than the miners, others spoke of due to its gold. Thier clues match the site as well. I have faith the Mexican miners were braving the elements and Apache, putting the work into signs on the hillsides and maps for future trips/generations, for a reason. I have seen this 'work' and 'question' why this effort was done if there are 'no minable' minerals here. Jacob Waltz mine may be West of Peters Canyon, but The Sombrero Mine, the mine of the Cave of Gold the Indian spoke of, and many of the 'true clues', including many of the Dutchman Mine, are at this spot East of Peters Canyon.