Not possible digging that deep.

[Roadhse2]

"to hear most of you talk the truth about Oak Island is that it is just an old fishing Island"

If you do a little research you will find that a fishing company owned all the rights to commercial fishing in that area in the 1600's, owned property on Oak Island, and also fishing stations to process the fish caught.

While that does not mean there is no treasure on Oak Island, it does shed some light on some of the things found on it that are not treasure related, but are being claimed as part of the treasure legend.

 

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[burlbark]

This is an interesting article

Does science*support*a man-made flood tunnel on Oak Island? The Blockhouse Blog - The Oak Island Compendium

So the water is not just ground water and the alleged tunnels are much deeper then simply sea level

It is also not the case that the water is everywhere. Ie the last episode when they dug into the old chapel shaft that was 140 feet deep. So these people had got to 140 feet before coming across the water. I think seas level is at about 30 feet.

View attachment 1397581

Here is a pic of the miners at 100 feet or so. As we can see there is no water


Whatever else these men were very brave.

At some point water must of come flooding into these tunnels.

This latest dig to find the Chappel shaft had an iron case being sunk down effectively sealing the water out of the bore hole till it migrated up from the bottom. You are not taking into consideration the rock strata that they have been talking about since season one. Here is a good read if you are interested in factual data.

Appendix --Claims of a flood tunnel under Oak Island

 

[Roadhse2]

Thanks for the link Burlbark....The whole website is filled with a lot of information if people will take a look, I have read all of it before and it is not just from a skeptics point of view, but tries to be open to all viewpoints and only goes through what evidence has or has not been found.

Not to take away from John Wanacott's assessment as an engineer either in the other article, (I chat via email with John once in awhile on some other matters about Smith's Cove, so respect his opinions also)But in this case I believe the geologists findings over John's views. If a person does some reading about the Windsor shelf that runs along the island, it allows a better understanding of the 'why' the waters fill through natural fissures and not through a tunnel system.

In regard to it not mattering if marine life is found in the vaults/tunnels/shafts one way or the other.....I can only say I have cave dived along the California coast many times when young and never have seen any of them with no marine life of some kind when the cave is open to the sea, even several hundred feet into them, just as the proposed tunnels would be....So clearing up the question if there is any in the shafts or vaults, would give the answer to the tunnel system being real or not to me.

 

[gazzahk]

This latest dig to find the Chappel shaft had an iron case being sunk down effectively sealing the water out of the bore hole till it migrated up from the bottom.

That shaft was already flooded (That is why it was abandoned). They did not put the steel casing through the shaft they just punctured the top. So who knows where the flooding of that shaft come from.

The earlier reports have the flooding occurring in the glacial till (100 feet) not coming up from underneath. ( I am not a believer in the flood tunnel theory but the reason for the flooding need to be consistent with the evidence)

 

[gazzahk]

Not to take away from John Wanacott's assessment as an engineer either in the other article, (I chat via email with John once in awhile on some other matters about Smith's Cove, so respect his opinions also)But in this case I believe the geologists findings over John's views. If a person does some reading about the Windsor shelf that runs along the island, it allows a better understanding of the 'why' the waters fill through natural fissures and not through a tunnel system.

So what was his comment on your theory? It does not seem consistent with what he said in the referenced article.

 

[n2mini]

"to hear most of you talk the truth about Oak Island is that it is just an old fishing Island"

If you do a little research you will find that a fishing company owned all the rights to commercial fishing in that area in the 1600's, owned property on Oak Island, and also fishing stations to process the fish caught.

While that does not mean there is no treasure on Oak Island, it does shed some light on some of the things found on it that are not treasure related, but are being claimed as part of the treasure legend.

What I was getting at for those of you that believe this and that there is and never was a treasure on the island, why do you keep playing along in the TV Show and this forum.. As I said before I don't like the show "The Simpsons" so I don't watch it nor do I follow any of their forums talking about it...

 

[lokiblossom]

I think the beach was setup to dry fish. The coconut fibred and eel grass were to stop the beach just turning to mud when it rained or when hundreds of fish were put on the beach..

So gazzahk, are you saying that coconut fibres were brought from either the Eastern Mediterranean or around South Africa from the Indian Ocean to stop the beach from turning to mud?

Cheers, Loki

 

[patiodadio]

I like the show but... It is NEVER talked about how these people of long ago might have dug such deep holes! They have millions of dollars in digging equipment today and high tech stuff but struggle to get down there. I laugh every time they talk about boobie traps with sea water flowing in to stop them. They are nuts! I do believe there might be some treasure there on the island but these guys are beyond dreamers. We all fantasize about finding amazing stuff, it keeps us interested in this hobby but I almost feel bad for them. Lots of lost sleep I would bet. The treasure that may be there is most likely small and buried about 10 feet down. If someone out there can explain the digging process of ancient people please help me understand this.
Thanks, Rock

One word .... "Pyramids" If ancient man could build the huge monoliths etc. and all the other amazing things we know they did, why couldn't they dig a little tunnel ?

 

[Raparee]

What I was getting at for those of you that believe this and that there is and never was a treasure on the island, why do you keep playing along in the TV Show and this forum.. As I said before I don't like the show "The Simpsons" so I don't watch it nor do I follow any of their forums talking about it...

I watch the show primarily because I get a kick out of how silly it all is. I mean, trying to pass off a railway spike as something out of a Spanish galleon?!? Pulitzer Roman sword?!? All the wacky theories that people come up with... I also follow it because I think it's amazing that they have squeezed four seasons out of people digging holes and finding nothing.

 

[Roadhse2]

n2mini....

"While that does not mean there is no treasure on Oak Island"

Because I do like the show, for entertainment....and on the off chance they actually do find something to verify any of the theories of a treasure actually being there. But I also like facts, so let them lead where they go, whatever the outcome, instead of just speculation. So far we have a lot of one and none of the other pointing to treasure.

Besides, it's a guy show....where else can you get the thrill of watching large machinery digging holes for weeks on end from the comfort of your couch?

 

[boogeyman]

What I was getting at for those of you that believe this and that there is and never was a treasure on the island, why do you keep playing along in the TV Show and this forum.. As I said before I don't like the show "The Simpsons" so I don't watch it nor do I follow any of their forums talking about it...

Basically it may be bunk, but look at how many people are learning how to spot hoaxed / planted artifacts. How many people are putting their tappity tap iphones down and actually reading books learning some research skills watching? How many people are using the information gained from this show and applying it to other shows or even daily life. All knowledge is good! Some just not so good, the trick is sorting it all out.

 

[Roadhse2]

gazzahk.....

"So what was his comment on your theory? It does not seem consistent with what he said in the referenced article. "

I actually have no theory concerning the supposed treasure itself (well, maybe one that does involve treasure, a small one, but long gone) I only have been looking into what 'is' known about the island and it's history from the many researchers and how that fits, or not, into the treasure legend. What we are discussing is not specifically about tunnels or lack of, just trying to clear up some items as to there use/function in the time period with input from many others that we then hash out to come to a consensus. The results should be in an article on Blockhouse by John at some point.

 

[gazzahk]

So gazzahk, are you saying that coconut fibres were brought from either the Eastern Mediterranean or around South Africa from the Indian Ocean to stop the beach from turning to mud?

Cheers, Loki

Good point.. Must admit had not given the reason the coconut fibers were there much thought. Just read this theory elsewhere and thought it made sense. I find the salt theory not plausible for a whole range of reasons.

With the coconut fibers.. They must of been there for a different reason. It seems unlikely that people brought them there specifically to cover the beach for any reason. I have read elsewhere they were used for fill in packing crates and thought this is where they must of come from. So I have always just assumed that once a decision was made to filter out the water on the beach they just looked for what they had lying around. This guess then assumed they had the coconut fibers lying around.

But I do se the big flaw in that explanation...

It would be nice to know how much coconut fiber actually existed.

If it was just to filter the entrance to 5 box drains it would only need to be over the actual drains.

The reading I have done suggests it was over the whole beach. Therefore if this is true they must of wanted to filter the whole beach and not just the drain entrances...

To me the only reason I have read that filtering the whole beach which made sense is the fish one.

The coconut fibers are definitely one of the big unexplained mysteries of the story...

 

[gazzahk]

I also must admit after reading the referenced article from my previous post I am more opoen to the possibility of the flood tunnel idea (not convinced but certainly not as dismmssive as I had been) ie if this expert is correct he offeres three possible solutions to explain the flooding

JW:* I can answer that by explaining what I believe, and the easiest way for me to do that is to get you to cast your mind back to the time when the first of the Searchers excavated at the Money Pit. Where did the water come from, that flooded them out once they reached about 100 feet below ground surface? There are only three possible situations to consider:

1.If there was no Money Pit and no natural feature in the bedrock that caused the soil to slump at this spot, there would have been at least 60 feet of homogeneous, dense glacial till between the bottom of the Searcher’s excavation and the bedrock surface where there could be enough cracks and fissures to conduct significant quantities of ground water up to the glacial till. Ground water pressure from the bedrock could not possibly force its way through that much till, and it could not lift 60 feet of dense soil. So the only explanation would have to be a Flood Tunnel.

2.If there was a natural cavity formed in the bedrock, possibly from salt water eroding the anhydrite bedrock, that could cause the till above the cavity to slump, thus weakening and loosening the till. However if that happened, the shape of the slumped till would be an inverted cone, and the zone of loose till would be quite wide at the ground surface (something like 60 feet in diameter or more). No one has ever seen a wide slumped area near the Money Pit – the original reports always said the depression in the earth was 12 or 13 feet across. In any case, there would still be 60 feet of loosened till sitting above the bedrock, and ground water pressure from the bedrock could not lift or wash through 60 feet of till. So the only explanation for the rapid flow of water into the Searchers excavation would be a Flood Tunnel.

3.If there was a Money Pit excavated by the original Depositors, which extended through the glacial till, and especially if the Money Pit had been backfilled in 10 foot deep layers, with layers of oak logs holding each 10 foot depth of backfill, then each of those 10 foot zones of till would be relatively loose and it might be possible for ground water pressure from the bedrock, to lift the lowest 10 foot layer of till. But at that point, the lowest layer of logs would hold back any till that was being pushed upward – and the upper 10 foot zones would provide more and more resistance. I cannot imagine water pressure from the bedrock, pushing through six of these 10 foot layers, or causing the till to become so soft and pervious that it suddenly would conduct the amount of water reported by the first flooded Searchers. If there was a Money Pit, almost certainly the water that flooded out the Searchers would have had to come from a Flood Tunnel. By the way, if the Money Pit did exist from 100 to 160 feet in depth, but if the lowest 60 feet were not constructed in 10 foot layers, then the 60 feet of glacial till would have stopped groundwater from rushing upwards to flood the Searchers.

DC:* Very interesting John.* This may change the way people think in regards to the flooding.
JW:* The way I see it, it does not matter whether there was a Money Pit or not. When the first Searchers dug down about 100 feet and were flooded, the water had to have come from a Flood Tunnel. It does not make any sense at all, for a man-made Flood Tunnel to exist without there being a Money Pit that was dug to at least 100 feet. And it does not make much sense either, to have a Flood Tunnel unless the Money Pit went somewhat deeper than 100 feet. So I believe there was a Money Pit and a Flood Tunnel. How else can anyone explain the water?

http://www.oakislandcompendium.ca/b...support-a-man-made-flood-tunnel-on-oak-island

So the question then becomes is this person right or are there other plausible explanations that stand up to investigation of the real environment at Oak Island that this expert has not considered...

 

[NostraDanis]

There are refreshingly good discussions in this thread!!

Hopefully, one of you all can help me with something I've never been able to reasonably explain.
Many of the "finds" and "discoveries" on the island over the years can potentially fall into the category of searchers needing to drum-up money. This makes sense; you're running out of cash and you still think you're on the brink of hitting it big, or you're ready to call it quits but you figure you might be able to line your pockets a little more before you head out. So, you "discover" something or leak a story of a great new "find". Voila, investor $$$ arrives. Also, many things can reasonably argued as the results of confirmation bias.

But, what about the Restalls?
The Restalls lived on the island for several years (year-round) and had no impending plans of leaving. In fact, I've read where their notes/journals describe that they felt they were very close to a major find. Additionally, they had claimed in their papers to have identified the box drains and made a variety of finds. I don't have the details at hand, but the point is - how do we explain the maps, drawings, notes, etc that the Restalls had accumulated for personal use? This stuff wasn't being used to drum-up $$$.

Can we discard all of the Restall's claims as simply being wrong or misinterpretations? And, do we even know if all of the Restall's data is known? Does Lee Lamb still hold any family secrets?

Anyway, I've always had a hard time explaining the Restalls.

 

[Dave Rishar]

It is/was on the coast, just above and to the left of the finger drains...above high tide. The pit was not the Money Pit, it is a well like pit the finger drains converge on....both (well/burn pit) uncovered when the finger drains were excavated and then covered back over....The whole beach area was used to concentrate the salinity of the water by filling at high tide and then letting it drain through the finger drains to the well, pumped out to be boiled in large pans or pots at the burn area, by doing so they saved on burn time, wood, and manpower to get a larger yield of salt each burn....

How is channeling seawater through tunnels into a central repository going to change the salinity? Apologies if I'm misunderstanding your explanation.

Has anyone seen any evidence of the water rising and falling with the tides?

It's been reported somewhere that this is the case, and that the water in the shafts is brackish. I don't recall where I saw this though. It's irrelevant in any event. This phenomenon exists in other islands (some of which are in that very area!) and is easily explained by geologists. Basically, the groundwater is pushed upwards by seawater.

If they were finding actual seawater in these things, that would be slightly more compelling. They haven't, to the best of my knowledge.

In regard to it not mattering if marine life is found in the vaults/tunnels/shafts one way or the other.....I can only say I have cave dived along the California coast many times when young and never have seen any of them with no marine life of some kind when the cave is open to the sea, even several hundred feet into them, just as the proposed tunnels would be....So clearing up the question if there is any in the shafts or vaults, would give the answer to the tunnel system being real or not to me.

This bears repeating, folks. If seawater was there for any length of time, there will be marine growth. If there is no marine growth, there was no seawater. Full stop.

So gazzahk, are you saying that coconut fibres were brought from either the Eastern Mediterranean or around South Africa from the Indian Ocean to stop the beach from turning to mud?

How many fibers have been recovered? How many are still there?

 

[gazzahk]

There are refreshingly good discussions in this thread!!

Hopefully, one of you all can help me with something I've never been able to reasonably explain.
Many of the "finds" and "discoveries" on the island over the years can potentially fall into the category of searchers needing to drum-up money. This makes sense; you're running out of cash and you still think you're on the brink of hitting it big, or you're ready to call it quits but you figure you might be able to line your pockets a little more before you head out. So, you "discover" something or leak a story of a great new "find". Voila, investor $$$ arrives. Also, many things can reasonably argued as the results of confirmation bias.

But, what about the Restalls?
The Restalls lived on the island for several years (year-round) and had no impending plans of leaving. In fact, I've read where their notes/journals describe that they felt they were very close to a major find. Additionally, they had claimed in their papers to have identified the box drains and made a variety of finds. I don't have the details at hand, but the point is - how do we explain the maps, drawings, notes, etc that the Restalls had accumulated for personal use? This stuff wasn't being used to drum-up $$$.

Can we discard all of the Restall's claims as simply being wrong or misinterpretations? And, do we even know if all of the Restall's data is known? Does Lee Lamb still hold any family secrets?

Anyway, I've always had a hard time explaining the Restalls.

This highlights one of the problems with treasure hunters... They are a secretive lot.... So each treasure hunter did not share that much with the rest of the world so we do not know who found what really. I imagine he 'needed to convince' himself and his family he was on the verge of finding something big in order to motivate himself and keep the rest of the family keen on the hunt.

He was still raising money to some degree he had sold of a significant part of his claim to any treasure so I imagine there was need to stay positive for financial reasons as well.

The problem is the existence of the pit, the existence of treasure and the existence of treasure still there are three different things.

The pit 'may exist' it 'may of contained treasure' and 'it still may contain treasure' None of the three are proven and even if the first one is proven it does not mean the other are true.

So if one finds evidence of the pit, or evidence that treasure did once exist that does not mean treasure is still there...

 

[Roadhse2]

Sorry Dave...I should have explained it better, but a bit of computer problem makes typing slow...

Basically it is a method used in France originally and then spread throughout Europe. I cannot recall the French name for the system at the moment....

In short this is how it works...simple but effective

A coffer dam is built above the high tide mark, this dam has inlets below high tide to allow seawater in when opened. Once the basin is flooded with water, the inlets are closed and the water in the basin allowed to naturally evaporate, 2 days, a week, who knows? More water is added as needed during the next high tide, captured behind the coffer dam to once again begin evaporation and increasing the salinity of the water. This water, when ready is then moved through the finger drains to a well for processing, the finger drains only form a conduit for the salt saturated water to the holding well, that can be closed off to keep the 'new' high tide water out that is not as saline when added.

While this sounds like a lot of work, the alternative was to buy salt in Europe, transport it over the sea, pay high taxes to the French gov't where most of it came from, and the possibility of running out during a fish harvest and losing your product....Tons of fish.

Edited to add....A better question might be why were there finger drains at all if you only want to flood a tunnel with seawater?....a simple hole into the tunnel would do that, no finger drains needed.

 

[lokiblossom]

The coconut fibers are definitely one of the big unexplained mysteries of the story...

That's exactly the point the Woods Hole and other studies created, but mostly because of the dating, 1200 to 1400, well before anything resembling a coconut grew in the Atlantic Basin.

Cheers, Loki

 

[lokiblossom]

How many fibers have been recovered? How many are still there?

I have no idea, but certainly less than has been earlier reported!
Cheers, Loki