Chagy
Bronze Member
OldSowBreath said:
Welcome to the forum!!....In deed a great observation.
The other day I told Jason on a PM that I had the gutsy feeling that the bell had been stolen by the French.....
Nice Bell Found at Shipwreck Site...with pictures.
- Thread starter ScubaFinder
- Start date
Welcome to the forum!!....In deed a great observation.
The other day I told Jason on a PM that I had the gutsy feeling that the bell had been stolen by the French.....
E
elle
Guest
I think we may be close to the answer!!!
Listen... I think the answer of some of the symbols on the bell may have something to do with the BASQUE COUNTRY of Spain.
First...a background of this region...
The first known inhabitants of the Basque Country date from the Lower Palaeolithic, approximately 200,000 years ago.
The Romans stayed in the Basque Country until the fall of their Empire, although their presence was never massive.
On the disappearance of the Romans, it was the Vascons which dominated the territory, although in permanent struggle with peoples from Europe.
The Kingdom of Navarre, was created to stop the expansion by the Franks and the Muslims. This kingdom extended from the Pyrenees to the south of the Basque Country and included the current continental Navarre (Nafarroa Beherea or Lower Navarre).
In 1515, Fernando The Catholic, king of Spain, conquered Upper (peninsular) Navarre and placed it under the crown of Castille.
From these dates on the destiny of the Basque Country was inexorably linked to France and Spain.
So...The Basque Country is an Autonomous Community in northern Spain. It borders with the Cantabia and Burgos provinces to the west, the Bay of Biscay to the north, France and Navarre to the east and La Rioja to the south. The territory has three distinct areas, that are defined by the two parallel ranges of the Basque Mountains.
What is interesting is that all throughout Europe at one time...as far as North Africa...it was a custom to have steles.
A stele is a stone or wooden slab, generally taller than it is wide, erected for funerals or commemorative purposes, most usually decorated with the names and titles of the deceased or living--inscribed, carved in relief, or painted onto the slab. They were also used as territorial markers or to commemorate military victories.
Steles till this day are used in Basque Country...it is a tradition of this region!
So what does this have to do with the bell? Steles are meant to face the rising sun.
I apologize I need to finish this in one moment!
Listen... I think the answer of some of the symbols on the bell may have something to do with the BASQUE COUNTRY of Spain.
First...a background of this region...
The first known inhabitants of the Basque Country date from the Lower Palaeolithic, approximately 200,000 years ago.
The Romans stayed in the Basque Country until the fall of their Empire, although their presence was never massive.
On the disappearance of the Romans, it was the Vascons which dominated the territory, although in permanent struggle with peoples from Europe.
The Kingdom of Navarre, was created to stop the expansion by the Franks and the Muslims. This kingdom extended from the Pyrenees to the south of the Basque Country and included the current continental Navarre (Nafarroa Beherea or Lower Navarre).
In 1515, Fernando The Catholic, king of Spain, conquered Upper (peninsular) Navarre and placed it under the crown of Castille.
From these dates on the destiny of the Basque Country was inexorably linked to France and Spain.
So...The Basque Country is an Autonomous Community in northern Spain. It borders with the Cantabia and Burgos provinces to the west, the Bay of Biscay to the north, France and Navarre to the east and La Rioja to the south. The territory has three distinct areas, that are defined by the two parallel ranges of the Basque Mountains.
What is interesting is that all throughout Europe at one time...as far as North Africa...it was a custom to have steles.
A stele is a stone or wooden slab, generally taller than it is wide, erected for funerals or commemorative purposes, most usually decorated with the names and titles of the deceased or living--inscribed, carved in relief, or painted onto the slab. They were also used as territorial markers or to commemorate military victories.
Steles till this day are used in Basque Country...it is a tradition of this region!
So what does this have to do with the bell? Steles are meant to face the rising sun.
I apologize I need to finish this in one moment!
E
elle
Guest
Anyways...on these stones are symbols. Symbols common to the Basque region.
This is the link to explain the symbols...
http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/topics/Hilarri
If you look closely, one can see ANNO 1786...with STARS/SUNS!
Further down it explains what a Christogram is...A BASQUE SYMBOL...(IHS plus a CROSS).
Everyone please read!
This is the link to explain the symbols...
http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/topics/Hilarri
If you look closely, one can see ANNO 1786...with STARS/SUNS!
Further down it explains what a Christogram is...A BASQUE SYMBOL...(IHS plus a CROSS).
Everyone please read!
E
elle
Guest
Click on the Chistogram underlined then!
It says Saint Bernardino of Siena popularized the use of the three letters (IHS) on the background of a blazing sun to displace both popular pagan symbols...THIS IS OF WESTERN CHRISTIANITY!
We are talking now about CHRISTOGRAMS...Christian symbols...symbols used in a SPECIFIC REGION...
I also do know from all my research...there were many Jesuits from the Basque Region...I just read a book from a Jesuit priest who lived there in the 1700's.
Could this bell represent a specific region of Spain?...where it was made?
It says Saint Bernardino of Siena popularized the use of the three letters (IHS) on the background of a blazing sun to displace both popular pagan symbols...THIS IS OF WESTERN CHRISTIANITY!
We are talking now about CHRISTOGRAMS...Christian symbols...symbols used in a SPECIFIC REGION...
I also do know from all my research...there were many Jesuits from the Basque Region...I just read a book from a Jesuit priest who lived there in the 1700's.
Could this bell represent a specific region of Spain?...where it was made?
E
elle
Guest
Ok...there were many Basque Jesuits including their founder...St. Ignatius de Loyola. These Jesuits did try to preserve their Basque language and culture as I have read.
These symbols of Basque origin are probably the basis for the Jesuit Order in general (many of their symbols).
Does everyone see how the Basque and Jesuit symbols are closely related?
These symbols of Basque origin are probably the basis for the Jesuit Order in general (many of their symbols).
Does everyone see how the Basque and Jesuit symbols are closely related?
Dear elle;
Your theory is sound, however if we take into account that Euskara, which the indigenous language of the Basque people, is considered to be an Indo-European Isolate, that is to say the Basque language is indeed unique to the region and it not based on the Vulgar Latin language of Western Europe. In other words, the language of the Basque does not have even the slightest Latin influence, therefore the word ANNO as such does not exist in the Basque country. Also the Basque language, Euskara, is the oldest known living European language, just for a bit of trivia.
Also, the founder of the Society of Jesus (ie, the Jesuits) was St. Ignatius of Loyola, and he was a Basque and he was a Basque nobleman, born in the heart of the Basque country, in Gipuzkoa, along the Urola river. It was St. Ignatius who designed the great seal for the Jesuit Order and it has been surmised that St. Ignatius' design was heavily influenced by the widespread use of the Christogram IHS throughout the Basque region during his youth. Also the sun symbol was most likely taken directly from the many stelas which dotted the landscape during the period. Therefore, it would seem logical that St. Ignatius would have been influenced by that which he came into contact with, including the myriad of Christian symbols and icons which were quite popular during his time.
Also, the correct word for ANNO in the Euskarian language would be URTE, which in no way, shape, size nor form resembles anything even approaching Latin. And yes, I had to look up the word, as I do not know the Basque language even though my parents hail from right next door in Catalunya and I am fluent in Catalan, Castillian, Latin and of course English. I've tried several times in the past to learn Euskara but it's simply to great a task for me. It would be easier for me to learn Chinese, I think.
Your friend;
LAMAR
Your theory is sound, however if we take into account that Euskara, which the indigenous language of the Basque people, is considered to be an Indo-European Isolate, that is to say the Basque language is indeed unique to the region and it not based on the Vulgar Latin language of Western Europe. In other words, the language of the Basque does not have even the slightest Latin influence, therefore the word ANNO as such does not exist in the Basque country. Also the Basque language, Euskara, is the oldest known living European language, just for a bit of trivia.
Also, the founder of the Society of Jesus (ie, the Jesuits) was St. Ignatius of Loyola, and he was a Basque and he was a Basque nobleman, born in the heart of the Basque country, in Gipuzkoa, along the Urola river. It was St. Ignatius who designed the great seal for the Jesuit Order and it has been surmised that St. Ignatius' design was heavily influenced by the widespread use of the Christogram IHS throughout the Basque region during his youth. Also the sun symbol was most likely taken directly from the many stelas which dotted the landscape during the period. Therefore, it would seem logical that St. Ignatius would have been influenced by that which he came into contact with, including the myriad of Christian symbols and icons which were quite popular during his time.
Also, the correct word for ANNO in the Euskarian language would be URTE, which in no way, shape, size nor form resembles anything even approaching Latin. And yes, I had to look up the word, as I do not know the Basque language even though my parents hail from right next door in Catalunya and I am fluent in Catalan, Castillian, Latin and of course English. I've tried several times in the past to learn Euskara but it's simply to great a task for me. It would be easier for me to learn Chinese, I think.
Your friend;
LAMAR
Dear Scubadiver;
In order to determine if the bell were used or not, it should be easy enough if you were to carefully examine the inside of the bell's surface. If the bell had seen prior use then the inner circumferance of the bell should show wear marks where the clapper struck the bell when it was in service. Also, the clapper hook, that is to say the piece from which the clapper was suspended inside of the bell, may show a wear groove in it as well.
Your friend;
LAMAR
In order to determine if the bell were used or not, it should be easy enough if you were to carefully examine the inside of the bell's surface. If the bell had seen prior use then the inner circumferance of the bell should show wear marks where the clapper struck the bell when it was in service. Also, the clapper hook, that is to say the piece from which the clapper was suspended inside of the bell, may show a wear groove in it as well.
Your friend;
LAMAR
MORE AND BEYOND OSSY
Bronze Member
Thank you, elle, chagy, lamar and others. Wow this is one of the best history lesson ever 
I had a question for La Bonita "elle" The Inscription on the Hilarri, It had Die 19 ? In English? is it a modern replica?
lamar you are a walking encyclopedia, vamos Barca !
Cheers,Ossy
I had a question for La Bonita "elle" The Inscription on the Hilarri, It had Die 19 ? In English? is it a modern replica?
lamar you are a walking encyclopedia, vamos Barca !
Cheers,Ossy
E
elle
Guest
Lamar...you are wonderful and also invited over for spaghetti!
But...the word "ANNO" is indeed used in Basque country.
I have known with Chagy that this word is an influence from Medieval Latin...not the pure Latin you are talking about...I just didn't want to step in on a debate with everyone.
"ANNO" is used on many of the stones in Basque Country...google and you''ll see many pictures of this word on the stones.
But...the word "ANNO" is indeed used in Basque country.
I have known with Chagy that this word is an influence from Medieval Latin...not the pure Latin you are talking about...I just didn't want to step in on a debate with everyone.
"ANNO" is used on many of the stones in Basque Country...google and you''ll see many pictures of this word on the stones.
ScubaFinder
Bronze Member
- #190
Thread Owner
You are ALL wonderful....I can't remember the last time I saw a spirited debate with so many intelligent people, hundreds of posts, and not a single crossed word. Thank you all so much! We will learn the history of this bell, I'm doing everything i can to get us some more artifacts from this wreck. Hopefully soon!
Jas
Jas
E
elle
Guest
OldSowBreath...you are detailed-oriented indeed!
I have asked Jas to post another picture I have seen of this bell...the back side of it that indicates something important!
It does seem worn...can I get everyone's opinion on this topic if Jas can post that picture soon?
I have asked Jas to post another picture I have seen of this bell...the back side of it that indicates something important!
It does seem worn...can I get everyone's opinion on this topic if Jas can post that picture soon?
Dear elle;
Your invitation to dine with you is met with much rejoicing, however as I am currently residing in Bolivia, I am afraid that the distances involved in such a dinner engagement would be overwhelming. And now, to continue on with the present discussion, m'lady.
The reason why the word ANNO is so prominent in the stela for which you've provided a link to is because the stela was inscribed in Latin instead of Euskara. I've taken the liberty of posting a photo of said stela and now I should like to translate the entire inscription:
"OBIIT (he/she/it died) MARIA ARROS SAGARAY (the lady's whole name) DIE (day or date) 19APRILIS ANNO 1736(19 April Year 1736)
And now, for the explanation WHY the stela was inscribed in Latin instead of Euskara. The reason is rather simple, actually. Until recently, Euskara was only spoken and never written. The Euskaran numerals have survived the centuries, alas the written language characters did not, and so the language was at one time in danger of extinction. Also, by the late 1600s, the Euskaran language fell under heavy attack from the nobility of Spain, as they wished for a single language to better unite all of Spain into one nation. Of course, this went over like a ton of bricks in the Basque country and in Catalunya to a lesser degree, as the nationalistic feelings in both the Basque country and in Catalunya have traditionally been cold towards the ruling nobility of Aragon and Castille.
Because of these strong traditional ties, the two languages survived the ages relatively intact and with little outside influences. In fact, there was a law passed in 1349, forbidding the use of Arabic, Hebrew and Euskaran. The text of this law is as follows:
Item nuyl corridor nonsia usado que faga mercadería ninguna que compre nin venda entre ningunas personas, faulando en algaravia nin en abraych nin en basquenç: et qui lo fara pague por coto XXX sol
And now for a rough translation of the text:
To note, no person shall conduct business in the marketplace, neither buying nor selling, while speaking in Hebrew, or Arabic, or Basquese, and if caught shall pay a fine of 30 Sols.
And so, the reason why we find no early examples of written Basque is because first, there were no examples of any sort, and second, because it was illegal to do so. Only on modern stelas does one find the Euskaran langauge inscribed upon them as it explamified in the photo below, however do not ask me to translate it, as I have no idea what it means.
And so, to sum up, the word ANNO is not Euskaran in nature, it's pure Latin and it was used far and wide throughout both Eastern and Western Europe, at least in official circles.
Your friend;
LAMAR
Your invitation to dine with you is met with much rejoicing, however as I am currently residing in Bolivia, I am afraid that the distances involved in such a dinner engagement would be overwhelming. And now, to continue on with the present discussion, m'lady.
The reason why the word ANNO is so prominent in the stela for which you've provided a link to is because the stela was inscribed in Latin instead of Euskara. I've taken the liberty of posting a photo of said stela and now I should like to translate the entire inscription:
"OBIIT (he/she/it died) MARIA ARROS SAGARAY (the lady's whole name) DIE (day or date) 19APRILIS ANNO 1736(19 April Year 1736)
And now, for the explanation WHY the stela was inscribed in Latin instead of Euskara. The reason is rather simple, actually. Until recently, Euskara was only spoken and never written. The Euskaran numerals have survived the centuries, alas the written language characters did not, and so the language was at one time in danger of extinction. Also, by the late 1600s, the Euskaran language fell under heavy attack from the nobility of Spain, as they wished for a single language to better unite all of Spain into one nation. Of course, this went over like a ton of bricks in the Basque country and in Catalunya to a lesser degree, as the nationalistic feelings in both the Basque country and in Catalunya have traditionally been cold towards the ruling nobility of Aragon and Castille.
Because of these strong traditional ties, the two languages survived the ages relatively intact and with little outside influences. In fact, there was a law passed in 1349, forbidding the use of Arabic, Hebrew and Euskaran. The text of this law is as follows:
Item nuyl corridor nonsia usado que faga mercadería ninguna que compre nin venda entre ningunas personas, faulando en algaravia nin en abraych nin en basquenç: et qui lo fara pague por coto XXX sol
And now for a rough translation of the text:
To note, no person shall conduct business in the marketplace, neither buying nor selling, while speaking in Hebrew, or Arabic, or Basquese, and if caught shall pay a fine of 30 Sols.
And so, the reason why we find no early examples of written Basque is because first, there were no examples of any sort, and second, because it was illegal to do so. Only on modern stelas does one find the Euskaran langauge inscribed upon them as it explamified in the photo below, however do not ask me to translate it, as I have no idea what it means.
And so, to sum up, the word ANNO is not Euskaran in nature, it's pure Latin and it was used far and wide throughout both Eastern and Western Europe, at least in official circles.
Your friend;
LAMAR
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ScubaFinder
Bronze Member
- #193
Thread Owner
E
elle
Guest
Thanks Jas for posting the picture.
Lamar...thank you for elaborating. I knew ANNO was not of Basque language...but ANNO was used in Basque Country...in the written form.
It was written as such because the underlining nature of this word is Medieval Latin...used widely throughout Europe...and yes...in the 1600's.
Medieval Latin was used primarily as a medium of scholarly exchange and as the liturgical language of the medieval Catholic Church. Its usage also being the language of science, literature, law and administration.
All I was suggesting was that the Jesuits who were spread in the early 1600's in Basque Country were probably highly influenced with the Basque symbols of their old culture.
Lamar...thank you for elaborating. I knew ANNO was not of Basque language...but ANNO was used in Basque Country...in the written form.
It was written as such because the underlining nature of this word is Medieval Latin...used widely throughout Europe...and yes...in the 1600's.
Medieval Latin was used primarily as a medium of scholarly exchange and as the liturgical language of the medieval Catholic Church. Its usage also being the language of science, literature, law and administration.
All I was suggesting was that the Jesuits who were spread in the early 1600's in Basque Country were probably highly influenced with the Basque symbols of their old culture.
deepsalvage
Tenderfoot
Great find, congratulations.
Update on the Memphis bell, it was removed from the Inglese de Mercedes, and went into the Submarine museum for a time, last I heard it was housed in their storage room, until the museum restoration is complete.
Update on the Memphis bell, it was removed from the Inglese de Mercedes, and went into the Submarine museum for a time, last I heard it was housed in their storage room, until the museum restoration is complete.
Chagy
Bronze Member
ScubaFinder said:
Jason,
In deed it has been a great thread and even though some of us have not agreed in some points of view or facts we have handled it in a very professional and respectful way. I’m really proud of every one who has been involved and thank you for sharing….
All the best,
Chagy…..
E
elle
Guest
Jas...how heavy is the bell?
ScubaFinder
Bronze Member
- #199
Thread Owner
We didn't have a good acurate sacale, but most likely somewhere between 32 and 35 lbs. I'll have it in my hands again in a few days, and will take the proper tools to record the details. I will also look again for any additional markings or details that might prove helpful, but I studied the thing for hours already so I'm not expecting anything else other than an "eyes on" opinion of the wear marks on the hang point. This indeed may be a huge clue of we discover that it hung somewhere for a period of time.
E
elle
Guest
Many of my Tnet friends here are fully aware that I was at Berkeley a couple months ago doing my research.
I am writing a book about shipwrecks but it coincides with the history of the early Catholic Church.
I took the time to visit as many historic missions as possible in the hope of expanding my knowledge, and of course, in the effort to give thanks for all the blessings we have received.
I happened to go through some of my files this afternoon and took note of two pictures I would love to share with everyone concerning the bell that is being investigated from the Dominican Rebuplic.
The first picture shows the bells located at the Mission San Gabriel Archangel outside of Los Angeles. This mission was founded on September 8th, 1771, by the Franciscan Friars on Rio Temblores. Due to flooding, the expedition was moved to a second site in 1774, where the mission of stone and red brick was built with the help of Gabrielleno Indians.
This first picture I'm posting is of a massive structure with bells. This is a complete replacement for the bell tower that was destroyed in the 1812 Earthquake of California.
What is unique is the amount of bells, the size of the bells, and notice the different attachments used to hold the bells in place.
There were iron loops and rope used in this effort.
If one looks closer...there is a CROSS OVER A MOUND on the bottom bell...a definate indication of a MISSION.
None of these bells had an "IHS" on them...as they were of the Franciscan Order.
The next picture shows some bells I found at a small museum connected to the Mission of San Rafael outside San Francisco. Founded in 1817, by Padre Vincente Sarria, it was built to assist the nearby Mission Dolores. It originally served as a sanitarium for native converts suffering from San Francisco's generally damper climate. Padre Luis Gil was so successful giving medical care, the asistencia grew to over 1,000 inhabitants!
The bells in the picture are of a much later date than the bell from the Dominican Republic, however, hopefully viewers can become more educated on analyizing church bells. Again...I feel that the "IHS," in most cases, indicates a bell was of the Jesuit Order. The bells from Mission of San Rafael were also for the Franciscan Order and there are no letters of "IHS."
I hope everyone enjoys these bells as much as I did...submerging one's self into history!
Laura
I am writing a book about shipwrecks but it coincides with the history of the early Catholic Church.
I took the time to visit as many historic missions as possible in the hope of expanding my knowledge, and of course, in the effort to give thanks for all the blessings we have received.
I happened to go through some of my files this afternoon and took note of two pictures I would love to share with everyone concerning the bell that is being investigated from the Dominican Rebuplic.
The first picture shows the bells located at the Mission San Gabriel Archangel outside of Los Angeles. This mission was founded on September 8th, 1771, by the Franciscan Friars on Rio Temblores. Due to flooding, the expedition was moved to a second site in 1774, where the mission of stone and red brick was built with the help of Gabrielleno Indians.
This first picture I'm posting is of a massive structure with bells. This is a complete replacement for the bell tower that was destroyed in the 1812 Earthquake of California.
What is unique is the amount of bells, the size of the bells, and notice the different attachments used to hold the bells in place.
There were iron loops and rope used in this effort.
If one looks closer...there is a CROSS OVER A MOUND on the bottom bell...a definate indication of a MISSION.
None of these bells had an "IHS" on them...as they were of the Franciscan Order.
The next picture shows some bells I found at a small museum connected to the Mission of San Rafael outside San Francisco. Founded in 1817, by Padre Vincente Sarria, it was built to assist the nearby Mission Dolores. It originally served as a sanitarium for native converts suffering from San Francisco's generally damper climate. Padre Luis Gil was so successful giving medical care, the asistencia grew to over 1,000 inhabitants!
The bells in the picture are of a much later date than the bell from the Dominican Republic, however, hopefully viewers can become more educated on analyizing church bells. Again...I feel that the "IHS," in most cases, indicates a bell was of the Jesuit Order. The bells from Mission of San Rafael were also for the Franciscan Order and there are no letters of "IHS."
I hope everyone enjoys these bells as much as I did...submerging one's self into history!
Laura
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