Nice Bell Found at Shipwreck Site...with pictures.

[ghostdog]

Jesuit map logo,map made in 1760,for New Spain,showing IHS with a cross on top of the H. Hi Lamar ,always good to read your posts, truely educational,
your friend Jon

 

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[Diamond Spike]

Jason congratulations on your find! woohoo

As I have read and reread this post. I have a question for you.

In the pictures you post of the site i see there are cannons.

Have you salvaged any of the cannons yet and what stage are they in conservation.

and do they have any marking on them that you can post.

Please don't tell me that they are JESUIT cannons. LOL (Is there such a thing?) J/K

Thanks
Ken L.

 

[ivan salis]

jesuits have a well known rep for being the "Intellectual order" --- they taught the indain converts the trades and how to build up a community for a reason--so that they would become more fiscally value "contributors" to the church --- since a metal smith makes more than a grunt laborer does -- his "tithe" is bigger ---so enducating the "loyal" indain converts paid off in the long run for the church --- plus with skilled artisans there at the town ---outside folks come into and settle in town due to the ease of life and getting "things" ---leading to even more "converts"

 

[ScubaFinder]

Ken, Jesuit cannons, I like it! We have not raised any cannon from this wreck, in fact we try to never raise an iron gun. We do plan to knock the encrustation off of a trunion and try to determine if there are any numbers or markings there. If you do tjhis, you can coat the exposed iron with axle grease and petit the encrustation back onto the gun, causing almost no damage whatsoever. The photos and measurements of the cannon and anchors have been studied, and most of our resources tell us Spanish, mid to late 1600's, so the puzzle fits together nicely. Of course, all of them said it was very hard to be sure and that these were guesses based on a number of factors. This was before we found the bell, so the bell definitely added some credence to their guesses.

Jason

 

[lamar]

Dear ivan salis;
The motives of the Jesuits is not the theme of this topic, my friend. If you wish, you can start a new thread and debate it for as long as you desire, however I strongly feel that this particular topic is not the place for debates such as you are implying.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[ScubaFinder]

I don't see a debate implied in Ivan's post....perhaps you are a little sensitive to the issue Lamar? I read that as Ivan saying they were a smart order, who knew how to grow themselves effectively, which helps spread the word more rapidly. Is not this the motive of any church?

 

[lamar]

Dear scubadiver;
I was only attempting to head off an often discussed debate. By all means, carry on my friends!
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[ivan salis]

lamar , scuba finder is correct ---- no "catholic bashing" going on (since I am a catholic myself) -- it was just the "smart bussiness" practice of the jesuits for them to teach the converts to be more fiscally "productive" and educate their "flock" in the trade skills --- as their converts wealth increased via their tithes so did the church's coffers --- thus the church could then fund even more missions and spread out getting "the good word of salvation" even farther to more converts -- generally speaking the basic ideal of almost every religious order known is to get as many converts as possible. --- not bashing just being a realist.

 

[elle]

Jas...you wanted me to check out Maria Chiquitania Bolivia 1635 awhile back.

What I found is that the oldest and first Jesuit mission in Chiquitos (Chiquitania), Bolivia, was from 1691...
called San Javier.

 

[elle]

Here is an UPDATE:

I wrote the Head of the Department of Religious Studies at the Jesuit University in Mexico City. He is a Jesuit priest and one of the most wonderful men I have ever corresponded with...helpful, informative, and so passionate in his work...what an example for all of us!

This is his reply:

"On your question, the bell was probably intended for a Jesuit church. The seal of our order is the anagram IHS (Iesu Hominubus Salvator, Jesus Savior of Humankind) within a sun, making reference to a mystical experience of St. Ignatius who described experiencing the presence of Christ as a refulgent sun next to him (you can read that in his autobiography)."

 

[Diamond Spike]

Jason thanks for your reply. Those seem to be very big guns. Just how many are down there?
I wish you the best of luck with your meetings here in the states.

When you do get the markings from the cannons please post them i'm sure the researchers here on T.N. will do a great job putting the puzzle together. As they always do.

Good Luck to you in your endeavors

Ken L.

{BTW} I ran across this picture and thought i would throw it in the fray.
Its from the 1733 plate fleet recovered from the El Capitana by Art Mckee

 

[mad4wrecks]

In the book, From A Watery Grave: The Discovery and Excavation of LaSalle's Shipwreck, La Belle, archaeologists found 612 finger rings with the symbol of the veneration of the Holy Name (IHS).
(LaSalle himself was a Jesuit priest.) Apparently they gave them to the native peoples and used them as trade items. Fascinating reading. Tom

 

[elle]

Tom...aren't those rings incredible?

I just saw one on display at the Natural Museum of American History (Smithsonian). There is a new temporary exhibition there that I highly recommend..."Jamestown, Quebec, Santa Fe: Three North American Beginnings."


http://americanhistory.si.edu/exhibitions/small_exhibition.cfm?key=126&exkey=244

 

[lamar]

Dear mad4wrecks;
Unfornuately my friend, none of the three rings in the above photo are rtelated to the Christogram IHS. In order, from left to right, the meanings are as follows:

IXXI, a derivative of the Christ Pantokrator, or in classical Greek, IC and XC the first 2 letters of the name Jesus and the title Christ. This custom is derived from the Eastern Christian custom of depicting Jesus Christ as the Pantokrator, or the All mighty. Typically, the letter IC and XC were placed on His left and right sides, respectively, and this gave rise to the symbolization used in Western Christianity.

In later times, artists sometimes depicted Jesus Christ without the initials, however Jesus' hands would always be arranged such a manner to spell out the initials IC XC. Far more commonly we find the icon of Christ Panctokrator as a teacher, with the New Testament in His left hand and His right formed in the classical orators gesture, signifying that He is speaking.

The middle ring depicts the Sacred Heart next to the pillar of Hercules. This depicts eternal strength through suffering.

The last ring shows an image of a person, most likely a Saint or a martyr, however the visage has been so badly worn down that it is almost impossible to state with clarity who is the person the signet represents. The best way to discover who the figure on this ring is would be to find another copy of the same ring in a better state of preservation.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[mad4wrecks]

You are incredibly vigilant my friend Lamar.

1,591 finger rings were found on La Belle. 612 of them exhibited the IHS symbol. The picture that was posted included a caption that read: Jesuit finger rings from the main cargo hold.

Unfortunately, there were no pictures in the book of rings with the IHS symbol.

Thank you for your explanation of what was depicted in the photo, which the book also decribes in some detail.

Tom

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

As one who was educated by the Jesuits, I have enjoyed this thread greatly. I have no doubt that that bell is truly "SJ".

From the pictures, it appears that the main weight bearing loop of the bell ring is somewhat worn, even more so than it's two neighbors. Could that be rope wear, meaning that this is an older bell being sent somewhere else? I don't know if rope can wear down bronze or iron, but perhaps weight and continual wear could do this?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Of course, the rope would gradually accumulate sand and dust which are excellent grinding / cutting agents. The small movements of the bell ,as well as the vibrations from ringing it, would gradually accelerate the 'wear ' under the rope.

Don Jose de La Mancha

P.S. sorry for coming in so late

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Good evening my friends: regarding bells, one of the accompanying stories of Tayopa is that one of the resident Jesuits of Tayopa cast bells. This would be in the late 1500's -> early 1600's.

Aprox. 15 miles to the north of Tayopa, on the same mt range / Mesa, lies the area known as "La Mesa del campanero.- The Mesa of the Bell maker". There are bits of copper slag to be found here and there. Some day I will run down the source of the copper and the other metales used in the bell alloy.

I originally started looking for Tayopa upon hearing, but not personally seeing, that Yeager, an American mining engineer, had purchased a small hand bell with "Guadalupe de Tayopa "cast on it's rim shortly before dying.. All attempts to locate it were in vain, it had been sent to relatives in Los Angles along with his other personal effects. There the trail seems to have died, I did not persue it since it had served it's purpose of establishing that Tayopa had existed..

Later while on the trail to a sister lost mine "The Gloria Pan" I ended up at Tubares. The mission had been abandoned, there was no one within miles, but the Church itself was basically intact. It had a brass baptismal bowl with the lid hinged in the center of a brass alloy, approx 4 ft in diameter.

In the tower, which was separate from the main building, there were 24 small bells. Upon investigating I found two large bells crudely hung at the entrance to the grave yard. approx 200 meters away. They were similar, about 4 ft in dia at the rim.

I do not remember exactly what was cast on the rims, but one was "In penitence", and the name of a woman with 17?? The other was in the name of a man.

I later was told by a passing Indian that the original church had been destroyed when the river changed it's course. He also told me that another large bell was in the river bed buried in the sand.

At that time I was completely alone except for my mule for almost two weeks. Now it has a road and an Indian village there.

If I can ever find it in my notes, I will post the data and pictures. There are many blank sections of "Bell casting in the Americas".

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[elle]

Hi Real de Tayopa!

Thank you for sharing your stories.

Is this the Tubares mission you were at?

I'll be in your area doing some work in the future. Do you mind if we hook up and try to go locate that large bell in the river bed sand? I'll pay for the expedition, but I'll need you to be the guide!

Thank you again for contributing to this thread!

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Good afternoon ELLE: no, it doesn't appear to be, but then it has been a few years. he he .

You posted -->

"Do you mind if we hook up and try to go locate that large bell in the river bed sand? I'll pay for the expedition, but I'll need you to be the guide!"
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

A) That depends upon many things, some are out of my immediate control. On the trip expenses, no problem, I can easily hold up my own. As for directions, I can tell you more or less where to look, but not exactly, no one can today. The original Church was in the present river channel, in front of the present Church. which was supposedly a convent then. Of course it has been enlarged for the present church.

The best time for that, is in late June, a window of perhaps two weeks. The Rio Fuerte wasn't called that without reason. I have seen it 100 ft deep and 3/4 of a mile across. Incidentally, this stretch of the river in front of the Church was where I saw that aquatic serpent, of approx. 80 ft, about 1 meter thick . I never swam across the river nude again.

When I was there, I was looking for the 'SUN' which is on the north side of the river. This played crucial part in proving the existence of the Gloria Pan mine which I eventually found. Long story there.

After the Indian uprising had been subdued, they were constructing a new mission on top of the ridge to the north, between Tubares and Temoris. It was to be named for one of the priests that had been killed in the uprising. The Jesuits kept in Contact by fires at night, and mirrors in the day.

Since they had an altar, which had been brought from Michoacan for the new mission, I assume that they also had a bell, which might be interesting. All of these things are stored in the second level of the Gloria Pan mine. Yes, I have found the site of the new Mission, I believe that I am the only one alive that knows of it and where it is. The cut blocks were 2 ft square.

It is a fascinating area.

Attached is some interesting data for you to play with. all questions will be happily answered, I have nothing to hide.

The bell from my Mine, TAYOPA, lies about one day's journey East from Tayopa. It is in a closed tunnel, but I am going to open it soon. I will let you know when I see it.

Don Jose de La Mancha (Joseph Curry)

P.S. All of my traveling was done by mule and alone. Not like these swabies in here who only believe in booze, broads, & buckets of Reales.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

http://www.ethnologue.com/show_language.asp?code=tbu

Enrique Chacón explicó que "la misión de los tubares fue construida alrededor de 1700-1701; algo interesante es que después de haber abandonado sus sitios arqueológicos, los indígenas regresaron hacia el año de 1767 con la expulsión de los jesuitas. En El Sauzal, los tubares ocuparon el sitio en la época prehispánica y posprehispánica".

http://www.traveljournals.net/stories/23795.html

http://www.mexicohorse.com/road_log_el_fuerte_to_la_reforma.htm

http://www.panoramio.com/photo/2234054

Quote---"There’s now a paved road all the way from Creel to Divisadero and on to San Rafael. From San Rafael, there’s a new road ­connecting Bahuichivo, Cerocahui, Mesa de Arturo, Piedras Verdes, Tubares (there’s a new bridge over the Río San Miguel), Choix, and on to El Fuerte. Note that you will need a 4WD between Mesa Arturo and Tubares (about 70km). Or you could go from San Rafael to Álamos via Bahuichivo, Témoris and Chinipas, crossing the Río Chinipas, though this road is very rough and assaults have been reported on it, so travel at your own risk"

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

scuba, apol. for getting slightly off orig. topic, but this data just might have a bearing on the identity of your beautiful bell.

ELLE: this crude map may help you to orientate yourself on the region.

Don Jose de La Mancha