New site?...with different clue versions?

[somehiker]

You are way out of line here.

As someone whom has spent your entire treasure hunting career focused on the Superstition mountains, as if that is the only place on Earth where a treasure might exist, it is hardly appropriate to start casting aspersions.

Your timing also was off the mark - June 6 was the 75th anniversary of D-Day, when Real de Tayopa's pals were hitting the beach and while he was busy fighting the Japanese in the Pacific.

I do not know if doppler radar might help in locating the LDM as he suggested, but it is hardly SO far off topic as to warrant this kind of insulting rant by you. What you posted says much more about you than it does him.

Roy

I could easily relate a lifetime spent pursuing the remnants of history, treasures included, in many places throughout North America. But as a hobby, not a career.
Very little however, would be related to any of the lost treasures discussed in this board, or even the things I have spent so much time since 1995 searching for in Arizona. As such, I see little point in elaborating on, or otherwise pimping any other details of my life history on this forum. But if I ever do, I will include supporting documents and photos as evidence that I genuinely do have the T-Hunting experience in a given area, or have found whatever I might claim to have found. I certainly won't say "I lost my pictures in a flood ", or I can't open it up and prove what I say is true, cause the government won't let me....although they also say "I Found It", you know. That's just lame IMO.

Just to clarify....
Although I was not around to take part in the events of D-Day, as well as the earlier or later battles of WW2, many of my relatives were.....with those from Great Britain and Canada, including my father, grandfather, and great grandfather (merchant marine) involved well before those from the US side of our border. It was a long war, and very costly to 3 generations of my own family. I myself, although I was never called up for full time duty, began my own military service in 1964, at the age of 15, with a 7 week boot camp for army cadets. This was followed by a totally voluntary enlistment in my local militia (reserve) regiment, where I spent nearly four years of after school hours and weekends...all year...training in the arts of war. Many of the long weekends as well as weeks during the summers were spent at various "regular army" training bases, where we mentored and were mentored by US units as part of a UN sponsored "Combat Leadership" program being established just in case a "peacekeeping role" developed in Vietnam at some point. It didn't happen, and there was a point thereafter where I visited and seriously considered joining up at the recruiting office in Detroit, as two good friends from my own unit had in '67/8, family concerns prevented it. There's more, but hopefully you understand where I'm coming from, and that I hold a very deep respect for all members of our respective armed forces....on all days of the calendar year....whether they be in training, on the battlefield, or veterans with honorable discharge. All of that is why I prefaced my observations with "Just an observation, so don't take it the wrong way Joe."

 

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[somehiker]

wayne..you are welcome to leave anytime if you don't like it here...nothing says you have to stay

As are you of course.....
'sides....there's always the ignore button dave....although I've never used it myself.

 

[somehiker]

Hi Jeff:

On review of your website, I noticed what I believe are a couple of errors within historical entries.
You might want to make some revisions.
One being the account of Waltz's passing as occurring during the flood and at his home on his property.
As I understand it, and from credible accounts, Waltz survived the flood, although his home did not, by taking refuge from the rising water in a tree on the property. He was rescued by Rhiney Petrache the following morning, and taken to Julia Thomas' boarding house, where he remained until his death from the effects of his overnight exposure in the tree, several months later. Also that via credible sources I believe, Julia was not present at the time of Waltz's demise, but rather two men who Julia had asked while leaving to fetch a doctor, to look after him while she was on that errand.
The second being your account of the Jesuit history as it related to Mission San Xavier del Bac.
The photo of the mission is actually of what the Franciscans built between 1783-1797, well after the expulsion of the Jesuits in 1767, when they took over the original small church and compound, which was nothing compared to the present day church.
Although no photo of the original Jesuit church exists, I'm pretty sure I've seen an artist's sketch of what it was thought to look like, somewhere on line.

 

[Al D]

The Jesuits never had a proper church at San Xavier and it was never a mission center for them, it became so as a result of the Franciscans well after 1779

 

[somehiker]

I do not see a difference between posting about some other treasure like Tayopa and posting another glamor story about how someone finally found the LDM, it is all entertainment to me.

Now there you go insulting TWO people in a single post, not just one.....

While I suspect the greater notoriety, and perhaps the LDM's top spot when it comes to lost treasure mysteries is due to that, has a tendency to draw posters mainly interested in other "losts" is naturally based on a more general interest, it's those who happen to believe there must be a connection between theirs and this, that make me wonder. I'm inclined to believe at least some of them are merely looking for ways to pad their own theories in some way, by including the LDM as part of "the big picture" they propose. That somehow, by posting references to their own particular interest within Lost Dutchman topics, it will elevate their favorite and (sometimes) local mine,treasure "depository"....or whatever they choose to call it, to a higher level of credibility . To each his own I guess....

 

[PotBelly Jim]

Me grumpy.....nah.
Just a bit tired of the attention-seeking deflections to another treasure topic, which occur all to often around here.
Other than that, I'm doin fine Jim.....how 'bout you ?

Can't complain...like everyone else, just livin' the dream. As far as us showin' up late to the party in WWII, we had our hands full gettin' slapped silly by Hirohito's crew anyway...Don Jose and his boys had to draw the line at Australia before we could ramp up to do anything in Europe...so it was mostly our merchant marine that was getting shot up with you guys. Until we landed in Africa to help Monte's bunch.

Called up at 15? I guess you guys DO fight above your weight...BTW, the Canadian Navy had the best Chief's Clubs...great bunch of guys, always rolled out the red carpet for us whenever we hit port in Canada.

Regarding Jeff's site and Waltz's history, there were 2 floods in Feb 1891. The second one was the one that appears to have gotten Waltz's house. Waltz lingered until October of 1891. I will see if I can dig out the article talking about Jake Starrar getting flooded, I believe at the time he was residing in Waltz's original house on Waltz's part of Section 16...Waltz was living in another structure not far away from his original dwelling.

 

[azdave35]

As are you of course.....
'sides....there's always the ignore button dave....although I've never used it myself.

why would i want to ignore you?..like alan said...you guys are great entertainment

 

[Al D]

Now there you go insulting TWO people in a single post, not just one.....
..

Sorry, I did not realize that you were a tenderfoot.

 

[arcana-exploration]

Hi Jeff:

On review of your website, I noticed what I believe are a couple of errors within historical entries.
You might want to make some revisions.
One being the account of Waltz's passing as occurring during the flood and at his home on his property.
As I understand it, and from credible accounts, Waltz survived the flood, although his home did not, by taking refuge from the rising water in a tree on the property. He was rescued by Rhiney Petrache the following morning, and taken to Julia Thomas' boarding house, where he remained until his death from the effects of his overnight exposure in the tree, several months later. Also that via credible sources I believe, Julia was not present at the time of Waltz's demise, but rather two men who Julia had asked while leaving to fetch a doctor, to look after him while she was on that errand.
The second being your account of the Jesuit history as it related to Mission San Xavier del Bac.
The photo of the mission is actually of what the Franciscans built between 1783-1797, well after the expulsion of the Jesuits in 1767, when they took over the original small church and compound, which was nothing compared to the present day church.
Although no photo of the original Jesuit church exists, I'm pretty sure I've seen an artist's sketch of what it was thought to look like, somewhere on line.

hEY

Hey, Wayne Thanks - First about the mission when I started the post I was trying to give the newbies to the LDM and overall basic history that they could feel and understand that would make sense and they would not get disgorged be the way too much info was coming at them. When I read (2 times) Before Rebellion, letters, of Jacob Sedlmayr, the two researcher writers felt that their research pretty much backed up the fact there was not much of a Mission there during Kino's time and they there concluded what was widley believed is that the Franciscans held finished what Kino started and that the Franciscans had, in fact, built the majority of what stands today. I was not going to get into that at that time, it would have been much info at that time. The reason I chose that old photo was that it was the only photo I felt sort of had a feel of the mission alone in the desert with a proximity to the desert, with no swimming pools or housing developments, and it really was even today when you go there it is Kino Kino Kino is the one who is most revered as the Missions most important figure even if he was not there to see to completion.. And then later the Jesuits came back into the picture. but I will address that in the post just to be clear. I also knew that about him up in the tree almost the whole night and he got sick and was bedbound with the Pneumonia for about six months and that Julia cared for hin sometimes at her ice cream parlor but also mainly at a little adobe house. I also had read she left and came back and maybe when she was gone the gold was taken from under his bed. I picture I was trying to paint was that she was his caretaker and friend and she was there for him until the day he died--- she just stepped out at the moment he died. I will address both things on the site. Actually, I think in the future, if there are two versions I will say most likely. For instance, I also read he died in the town at the behind her shop, but thank you I need to qualify things with yes or most likely, especially in the book. Have a great weekend, and we are all lucky to be Americans. thanks, Wayne.

 

[deducer]

wayne..you are welcome to leave anytime if you don't like it here...nothing says you have to stay

Well that escalated quickly.

I think we're all a bit huffy because there has been no serious and interesting discussions for quite some time, just trolling after trolling- new posters coming in and piling it higher and deeper. I think that the other site that used to be moderated by Jim Hatt was the best because it wasn't just moderated for topic, but also for the b.s., and that kind of knowledgeable moderating doesn't happen here, so discussions easily get off-topic.

 

[somehiker]

Sorry, I did not realize that you were a tenderfoot.

Only on my way out of them hills, alan.

 

[azdave35]

Well that escalated quickly.

I think we're all a bit huffy because there has been no serious and interesting discussions for quite some time, just trolling after trolling- new posters coming in and piling it higher and deeper. I think that the other site that used to be moderated by Jim Hatt was the best because it wasn't just moderated for topic, but also for the b.s., and that kind of knowledgeable moderating doesn't happen here, so discussions easily get off-topic.

deducer..every time there is a little squabble in here you blame it on so called trolls or members getting off topic...the truth is we get off topic here because someone with a big mouth insults one of the other members...plain and simple....the moderator does a great job here..he just cant control people's big mouths

 

[arcana-exploration]

Only on my way out of the hills, alan.

Two things as far a couple of past comments. I have read Treasrenet and Desert for about 4 years I guess, and Somehiker is and has always been one of the most knowledgeable contributors to both sites, not to mention one of the honest, fairest and most objectable when posting. He is one of the posters that I take to heart what he says even when he corrects me. I need to very careful on our site how I post things even if I have to write a couple of extra paragraphs, and actually, I need to go through our book and make sure of what I have written is interpreted correctly, asking Wayne to take a hike these sites would not be worth a darn without then even if we do not agree with what say. I can never catch them in knowledge when it comes to the LDM they are and will always be 25 years ahead of me.

The second thing is our site I knew there would be lots of skepticism, which their needs to be and should be. But honestly, to call it straight away BS or HA Ha Ha to me is kinda sad. And the reason I say that is that I am putting my money where my mouth is, I am putting credible images up and putting my but on the line, saying what they are, for instance - this is the cave above where the Dutchman and his partner most likely stayed

 

[Al D]

Two things as far a couple of past comments. I have read Treasrenet and Desert for about 4 years I guess, and Somehiker is and has always been one of the most knowledgeable contributors to both sites, not to mention one of the honest, fairest and most objectable when posting. He is one of the posters that I take to heart what he says even when he corrects me. I need to very careful on our site how I post things even if I have to write a couple of extra paragraphs, and actually, I need to go through our book and make sure of what I have written is interpreted correctly, asking Wayne to take a hike these sites would not be worth a darn without then even if we do not agree with what say. I can never catch them in knowledge when it comes to the LDM they are and will always be 25 years ahead of me.

The second thing is our site I knew there would be lots of skepticism, which their needs to be and should be. But honestly, to call it straight away BS or HA Ha Ha to me is kinda sad. And the reason I say that is that I am putting my money where my mouth is, I am putting credible images up and putting my but on the line, saying what they are, for instance - this is the cave above where the Dutchman and his partner most likely stayed

OK, then answer this question; how did Waltz, who was around 70 years old at that time, get to your location from Phoenix and back, on foot in just two days?
how did he get down to the mine without rappel gear?
every account of the time Waltz was gone puts the time between two and three days, unless you choose to ignore this clue because it doesn’t support your discovery.

 

[Treasure_Hunter]

I do not see a difference between posting about some other treasure like Tayopa and posting another glamor story about how someone finally found the LDM, it is all entertainment to me.

Because this is the LDM forum, not Toyopa forum, there is a seperate forum for Toyopa.

 

[azdave35]

Two things as far a couple of past comments. I have read Treasrenet and Desert for about 4 years I guess, and Somehiker is and has always been one of the most knowledgeable contributors to both sites, not to mention one of the honest, fairest and most objectable when posting. He is one of the posters that I take to heart what he says even when he corrects me. I need to very careful on our site how I post things even if I have to write a couple of extra paragraphs, and actually, I need to go through our book and make sure of what I have written is interpreted correctly, asking Wayne to take a hike these sites would not be worth a darn without then even if we do not agree with what say. I can never catch them in knowledge when it comes to the LDM they are and will always be 25 years ahead of me.

The second thing is our site I knew there would be lots of skepticism, which their needs to be and should be. But honestly, to call it straight away BS or HA Ha Ha to me is kinda sad. And the reason I say that is that I am putting my money where my mouth is, I am putting credible images up and putting my but on the line, saying what they are, for instance - this is the cave above where the Dutchman and his partner most likely stayed

if you are stating that you have found the fabled lost dutchman mine then you are going to have a hard time making your sale around here....if you have been watching the forums like you say you have then you know that about 4 times a year someone comes on here from out of the blue and declares they have done what none of the local boys have been able to do for over 100 years..relocate the ldm...and they have all done this feat either by using google earth or the silly stone maps...if you have been watching this forum you should have enough proof to convince you that travis tumlinson carved the stone maps that you are basing your research from and they lead nowhere (except maybe to prison , the nut house or the poor house)...all of the ldm locators that come on here always have one goal in common..they are all going to write a book or are bucking for a reality show...most of them turn out to be con men...alan is correct in saying that an old man did not repel down into a deep crevice to work his mine...if you were a miner you would realize this...the fact of the matter is the ldm has been relocated and by a local boy...he has already written books and been on tv shows but if you think you have proof that you found the
mine..then by all means lay it on us...we could use some fresh entertainment around here

 

[Real of Tayopa]

relax gentlemen, Tayopa was only mentioned to show where I used it to my satisfaction. Some hiker has some justfication, but what cannot is that I found Tayop, AND SUGGESTED IT AS A TOOL

 

[Real of Tayopa]

INCIDENTALLY, tAYOPA IS A LEGEND IN IT'S OWN RIGHT, IT HAS BEEN LOOKED FOR FOR 400 YEARS. sO MUCH FOR THAT, IT WILL NEVER BE MENTIONED AGAIN. iNCIDENTLY, i HAVE FOUND THREE OTHER LOST MINES, FAMOUS IN Mexican AROUND CAMp FIRE TELLING SESSIONS. It was only a suggestion somehiker.

 

[azdave35]

INCIDENTALLY, tAYOPA IS A LEGEND IN IT'S OWN RIGHT, IT HAS BEEN LOOKED FOR FOR 400 YEARS. sO MUCH FOR THAT, IT WILL NEVER BE MENTIONED AGAIN. iNCIDENTLY, i HAVE FOUND THREE OTHER LOST MINES, FAMOUS IN Mexican AROUND CAMp FIRE TELLING SESSIONS. It was only a suggestion somehiker.

jose...i dont have a problem listening to your stories..i find them very interesting

 

[Real of Tayopa]

as you will note for some 600,000 hits in the Tayopa forum, I have done that, They were generally hints posted,to aid ldm huntrs, but they always need proof. but needed a reference, hence I used Tayopa