new show on the dutchman

I'm an Indian just found out a few months ago.

Monacan.

I wear a Black Hat and Coat now I know why.

Mon in Black.
 

Well Bob I work with a couple fellow tribesman from Virginia so I take that your from that area at one time. But there last name is Lenhart so I suspect they have German roots to.

Wrmickel1
 

Im exactly what I say I am lol, a greenhorn. My knowledge of the LDM and the Superstition's is limited to what I've seen on the show, and the little that I've read on these forums. My dad and I have been watching all of the episodes after being hooked on the first one. It has intrigued me enough to look up books on the topic, but that's about it. However, after last night's episode I wanted to know more. I initially looked up the Black Legion and I read the whole thread from 2005 over on the Lost Dutchman Website forum. There were actually a few posts that did give me some insight but it was all EXTREMELY VAGUE, haha. The rest of it was a pretty entertaining argument about misdirection, I imagine that after last night that thread will be getting a ton more views. So I have a few questions, obviously not going to ask about Black Legion because I've seen where that gets people.
1) What books are the best on the Lost Dutchman?? If I could only read one which one should it be??
2)Nobody's seemed to bring up the helicopter or gun shots from last night's episode, is the helicopter something other dutch hunters have experienced before?
3) I haven't doubted Woody yet, but when he brought up the Black Legion I had a feeling that it might be scripted, especially when the narrarator's said that the "Black Legion was '7 feet tall' and 'not completely human'"
4) I want to believe that the black hand and the medicine wheel wasn't staged but it just felt phony, already read a lot about the medicine wheel on this thread, but what about the black hand?
5) Why is the candle holder that Eric finds, from the Comstock Lode?? If that was in Nevada would it actually be taken all the way to Arizona to be used in a mine? I felt like that was a legit find.

Thanks,

Greenhorn19
 

Well, I've had an interest in the LDM since I was a kid. I've read most of the books on the LDM, Superstition Mountains, and books from those who have actually searched for the gold over the years. I live close to the Superstitions, (I can walk out in front of my house and look to the East and see them. I've backpacked through the 'Supes several times with friends as well as taken shorter overnighters on my own. Great times. Due to blown out knees I won't be taking any more extended hikes. I've watched all of the episodes of this new show up to yesterday's show. I was expecting a more serious approach to hunting the LDM based on existing information and history. I guess the fact that I put zero credence with the Stone Maps is a part of my disappointment. The other is the amateurish filming of the show and the obvious addition of props to add drama and mystery to the show. They had to because at the rate the show is going it is pretty dry and boring. I was really hoping for something more professional and showing the documented history as it has so far been written and following the clues. After watching the last episode with the fake medicine wheel and black hand print, that pretty much blew it for me. I understand they're trying to create drama but for true LDM afficiandos, it is a joke. The filming is so uneven it's ridiculous. One scene they are at the head of a lush green canyon and the very next scene they're exploring a totally different area. Most of the locations aren't even in the Superstitions. Anyways, good premise but very poorly executed.

Addendum: I'm no pro LDM hunter but based the info I've read and "my" boots on the ground, "I" think Peter's Canyon, Peter's Mesa and Pistol Canyon is the most likely area...to me. Years later I came across the "Kochera's Gold" story and found the maps online. Those maps indicate a canyon that would closely correlate to Pistol Canyon (which doesn't show up on current topo maps).
 

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pkdmslf, What books do you recommend? I'm a teenager now, and while I doubt I'll ever become a real Dutch Hunter, I am extremely fascinated with the legend. I also want to send a copy of a LDM book to my brother in the air force, he's stationed at Nellis, and I remember when he was my age he was always really fascinated with stuff like this especially shipwrecks, I think one time his college major was going to be Archaeology. Anyway, I've told him about the show, and I think a book about the LDM would be something really cool to send to him.
 

The helicopter was an Apache helicopter. Boeing is not too far from the West of the Superstitions (Apaches are made there.) They can fly over the Wilderness Area just not supposed to land. An episode or two ago the crew themselves hired a helicopter to fly over the mountains. Goldfield used to have helicopter rides over the mountains several years ago. As far as the best books, each person has their favorites. I personally like the books by Helen Corbin and Thomas E. Glover as well as a couple by Tom Kollenborn. There are many others but these are "my" favorites.

I would think that after all of the years that have passed since Jacob Waltz has passed and "IF" he was truthful with his clues, I would think that someone would have found the mine, "IF" there is a mine. There have been many, many individuals who spent the better part of their lives living in the 'Supes looking for it... unsuccessfully. Wayne Tuttle from the show himself has been looking for quite a few years and he hasn't found it. With the technology that is available I would think someone or some group would have found it by now. There was supposedly an eathquake in the 1880's or 1890's that according to written acccounts large dust clouds could be seen coming from the Supertition Mountains. If that is true the clues, monuments, cave, pit, etc., could have been destroyed and/or buried. Since the gold would be located in the Wilderness Area if it was found, permiits would have to be filed and approved. It would become public and be a world news story. On the the other hand, maybe it has already been found and the finder/s removed the gold secretively to avoid the legalities as well as the publicity. Also, it is a big boon for Arizona tourism. If it was to be found, the lore, mystery and tourist/ book/ televion folks would lose money. But it is still fun to hope wish that the LDM Mine is still there waiting to be found. Good Hunting!
 

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Aric said:
I joined T-net to share all of my information. I have no need to hide what I have been told and what I know to be known as fact. My source of information is as close as I can get to the family Waltz. I'm not from the USA. I'm from a little town of Oberschwandorf, Germany. I moved to Arizona (legally) so I could come and look for the Waltz mine. I'm looking for a foundation of a stone house on the western edge of the Superstition Mountains. I have been told that the entrance to mine is inside the stone house that faced the northwest. I think it's possible the foundation would still be there.
Click to expand...


Im glad you dont hide anything. So members keep certain facts to themselves inorder to keep someone from using their info.
So I believe I gave you the same option out of mutual respect.
I personally have spent a great deal of time learning facts that I wont share until on public page until Im ready. Since you are on the western end of the sups. I dont think we can help each other.
Just one peace of advise. Becareful what you do share. Some of the members have been looking 30-40 years for it. If they can use your info that you share publicly and get it. Then its fair game. Good hunting
 

Greenhorn19 said:
Im exactly what I say I am lol, a greenhorn. My knowledge of the LDM and the Superstition's is limited to what I've seen on the show, and the little that I've read on these forums. My dad and I have been watching all of the episodes after being hooked on the first one. It has intrigued me enough to look up books on the topic, but that's about it. However, after last night's episode I wanted to know more. I initially looked up the Black Legion and I read the whole thread from 2005 over on the Lost Dutchman Website forum. There were actually a few posts that did give me some insight but it was all EXTREMELY VAGUE, haha. The rest of it was a pretty entertaining argument about misdirection, I imagine that after last night that thread will be getting a ton more views. So I have a few questions, obviously not going to ask about Black Legion because I've seen where that gets people.
1) What books are the best on the Lost Dutchman?? If I could only read one which one should it be??
2)Nobody's seemed to bring up the helicopter or gun shots from last night's episode, is the helicopter something other dutch hunters have experienced before?
3) I haven't doubted Woody yet, but when he brought up the Black Legion I had a feeling that it might be scripted, especially when the narrarator's said that the "Black Legion was '7 feet tall' and 'not completely human'"
4) I want to believe that the black hand and the medicine wheel wasn't staged but it just felt phony, already read a lot about the medicine wheel on this thread, but what about the black hand?
5) Why is the candle holder that Eric finds, from the Comstock Lode?? If that was in Nevada would it actually be taken all the way to Arizona to be used in a mine? I felt like that was a legit find.

Thanks,

Greenhorn19
Click to expand...

Hi Greenhorn19

Welcome and Good Luck To You And Dad.

1 Books on the Dutchman don't buy any they all suck.
2 Yes I've noticed helicopter fly over's now and again
3 Black Legions bogus in my book, others disagree. Most likely stems from the Zuni Tribe and there annually treks.
4 There's on the show I fill are not real,
5 Yes the candle holder was brought there to mine or to light a cabin or such.

For good info just start here, go to the beginning and start reading.

Separate the bull from the #### and you should be up to speed real quick.

Wrmickel1
 

wrmickel1 said:
Hi Greenhorn19


Separate the bull from the #### and you should be up to speed real quick.

Wrmickel1
Click to expand...

I don't feel like I've been having trouble doing that.. Haha, I skimmed through the first few pages and then the few last pages, now I just need to read the rest!
Thanks for the insight
 

Greenhorn19 said:
pkdmslf, What books do you recommend? I'm a teenager now, and while I doubt I'll ever become a real Dutch Hunter, I am extremely fascinated with the legend. I also want to send a copy of a LDM book to my brother in the air force, he's stationed at Nellis, and I remember when he was my age he was always really fascinated with stuff like this especially shipwrecks, I think one time his college major was going to be Archaeology. Anyway, I've told him about the show, and I think a book about the LDM would be something really cool to send to him.
Click to expand...

The gold mine of jacob waltzs. By thomas glover is the book I would send your brother. Frank one of the guy on the show has mention helen corbins. The bible on the lost dutchman mine.
Those titles are a little off,but google should correct them very easly.
 

Greenhorn19 said:
pkdmslf, What books do you recommend? I'm a teenager now, and while I doubt I'll ever become a real Dutch Hunter, I am extremely fascinated with the legend. I also want to send a copy of a LDM book to my brother in the air force, he's stationed at Nellis, and I remember when he was my age he was always really fascinated with stuff like this especially shipwrecks, I think one time his college major was going to be Archaeology. Anyway, I've told him about the show, and I think a book about the LDM would be something really cool to send to him.
Click to expand...

Greenhorn19:

I would recommend these. You may have to look for them on ebay or some used book store online as they are hard to come by. Thomas E. Glover's books sometimes become available by reprints from the Superstition Mountain Museum.

There are a lot of books out there and most are a waste of money but I think these stand the test of time and provide some decent information.

#1: The Curse of the Dutchman's Gold by Helen Corbin, 1991 (There are some heavily annotated topo maps made by Tom Kollenborn which I think are worth the price of the book by themselves.)

#2: The Lost Dutchman Mine of Jacob Waltz, Part 1: The Golden Dream by Thomas E. Glover, 2000

#3: Superstition Mountain: A Ride Through Time by Tom Kollenborn and James Swanson, 1982 (Good stories and history of the Gold Hunters and history of the Superstition Mountains.)

#4: The Bible on the Lost Dutchman Gold Mine and Jacob Waltz: A Pioneer History of the Gold Rush by Helen Corbin, 2002 (Mostly a redo of her first book with the addition of Pioneer history. I personally prefer the first one.)
 

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Awesome thank you guys so much. We need to put together a care package for him, we didn't send him anything for Christmas or his birthday...
 

pkdmslf said:
The helicopter was an Apache helicopter. Boeing is not too far from the West of the Superstitions (Apaches are made there.) They can fly over the Wilderness Area just not supposed to land. An episode or two ago the crew themselves hired a helicopter to fly over the mountains. Goldfield used to have helicopter rides over the mountains several years ago. As far as the best books, each person has their favorites. I personally like the books by Helen Corbin and Thomas E. Glover as well as a couple by Tom Kollenborn. There are many others but these are "my" favorites.

I would think that after all of the years that have passed since Jacob Waltz has passed and "IF" he was truthful with his clues, I would think that someone would have found the mine, "IF" there is a mine. There have been many, many individuals who spent the better part of their lives living in the 'Supes looking for it... unsuccessfully. Wayne Tuttle from the show himself has been looking for quite a few years and he hasn't found it. With the technology that is available I would think someone or some group would have found it by now. There was supposedly an eathquake in the 1880's or 1890's that according to written acccounts large dust clouds could be seen coming from the Supertition Mountains. If that is true the clues, monuments, cave, pit, etc., could have been destroyed and/or buried. Since the gold would be located in the Wilderness Area if it was found, permiits would have to be filed and approved. It would become public and be a world news story. On the the other hand, maybe it has already been found and the finder/s removed the gold secretively to avoid the legalities as well as the publicity. Also, it is a big boon for Arizona tourism. If it was to be found, the lore, mystery and tourist/ book/ televion folks would lose money. But it is still fun to hope wish that the LDM Mine is still there waiting to be found. Good Hunting!
Click to expand...

Doesn't have anything to do with whether Waltz was honest or not. Waltz didn't have any reason to lie to Rhiney or Julia during the eight months he was bedridden and was taken care of by Thomas and Petrasch. The REAL problem is that first hand conversations with Jacob Waltz are EXTREMELY RARE! Most of what we know now comes from two places:

1. What Waltz said to Rhiney and Julia that was told to Sims Ely and Jim Bark, and are included in Sims Ely's Book.

The problem with what Waltz said to Rhiney was that Rhiney was half drunk most of the time and didn't pay a ton of attention to what Waltz was telling him. His brother Hermann blamed Rhiney's drinking on them not being able to locate Waltz' Mine, and never spoke to him again.

2. What Dick Holmes said Waltz told him while on his death bed.

The only information for that is in the Holmes Manuscript. You have to believe in the authenticity of the Manuscript to believe in the story Waltz supposedly told to Dick Holmes and Frank Alkire. Dick Holmes denied he wrote that published manuscript.

So........ we have the recollections of a drunk. The recollections of a woman that knew nothing about mining. The written words of a manuscript that the person whose name is on that manuscript said he didn't write.

What is left is mostly anecdotal and circumstantial.

THAT is why the LDM has not been found since Waltz sealed it up in about 1890.

What hard facts do we have?

ORE: The ore from under Waltz Bed was assayed by Joseph Porterie, who was also the Chief Assayer at the Vulture Mine. Some people (even today) think that Waltz ore was highgraded from when he worked at the Vulture. First; there is no record of Waltz having ever worked at the Vulture. Second; Joseph Poerterie said that the ore from under Waltz' Bed was NOTHING LIKE Vulture Mine Ore (and he would know seeing as he was the Chief Assayer at the Vulture).

Jewelry: Some of the jewelry made from Waltz' Ore is still around. Likely all in one private collection. The match safe is the most famous, and Brownie Holmes notarized description and measurements of it make it unlikely that the one we know is not the original one.

The Peralta/Gonzalez Connection:

The LDM is supposed to be one of the eight or so mines of the Peralta/Gonzalez Families' that had been sealed by Apaches after they had massacred a large mining party. The problem with that is that there are ZERO records of the Peralta or Gonzalez Families' doing any mining in the Superstitions.

What supports this thought:

Peralta/Gonzalez Family Oral Histories. They both talk about a mining party of about 200 people that were massacred shortly after the US?Mexico War (1847).

We have several Spanish/Mexican Style packs found rotted in and around The Massacre Grounds. The Apache would have eaten the mules, and had no need for gold back then. When the pack mules started bucking and kicking during the fighting, several packs would have fallen off, being loaded with hand cobbled rich gold ore. Silverlocke and Malm found just such a load. They found rich float gold in a spot of the Massacre Grounds. They sold all that gold and spent all that money searching for the vein that didn't exist (because the gold they found came from the massacre). Every so often, people find rich float. Nothing underneath, and no vein anywhere. What that is, is gold from the massacre that has been sitting on the surface since that time.

............ but to me, the biggest evidence to prove the Peralta/Gonzalez Families' had hidden gold mines in and around the Superstitions are two things that I have posted about several times:

1. The "Pit Mine"

2. The Mormon Stope of the Mammoth Mine

Two mineshafts hidden, then much later accidentally found and worked for millions of dollars in rich gold ore.

There is a lot of BS surrounding the LDM. There is a ton of circumstantial and anecdotal evidence to support the story, but the reason it hasn't been found yet (that I know of), is that there is so little documented evidence. If Rhiney hadn't been a drunk, then he may have payed more attention to Waltz, and he. his brother Hermann, and Julia Thomas would have found the mine in 1892 when they went looking.

THAT is also what makes the LDM so fun (and frustrating at the same time) to look for!

Mike
 

So do you hold any credence to the story/clues that JW told Richard Holmes on his deathbed? (Supposedly Richard Holmes "took possession" of the JW gold from underneath his bed. Also if JW confronted Richard Holmes years earlier trying to follow him into/ out of the Superstitions close to where Tortilla Flats is today, why would he tell Richard Holmes the clues? Story if true, sure is long winded for someone on their deathbed. Just sayin'. Also the earthquake of 1887 could have changed everything.
Reference:
http://www.ajpl.org/aj/superstition/stories/Bavaspi%20Earthquake.pdf

http://www.azgs.az.gov/Hazards_ocr/earthquakes/1887%20Sonoran%20Earthquake-%20Not%20Our%20Fault.pdf
 

Kochera's Gold- Peter's Mesa

http://www.ajpl.org/aj/superstition/stories/Haywood%20Story.pdf

Haywood_Kochera Map copy.jpg

Peter's Mesa Topo copy.jpg

Photo of a piece of Kochera's gold found on Peter's Mesa. Photo found on the internet:
Kochera's Gold Sample.jpg
 

Greenhorn19 said:
1) What books are the best on the Lost Dutchman?? If I could only read one which one should it be??
5) Why is the candle holder that Eric finds, from the Comstock Lode?? If that was in Nevada would it actually be taken all the way to Arizona to be used in a mine? I felt like that was a legit find.

Thanks,

Greenhorn19
Click to expand...

in my opinion, the best book you can read is the Lost Dutchman Mine by Sims Ely. He was there, he interviewed Julia and Rhiney, both him and Jim Bark. He got the info from them directly. They were the only ones, besides Dick Holmes, that Waltz talked to. Whether Dick actually talked to Waltz about his mine is highly debated. Anyway, my money is on that book. I've read most of them too.

the candle holder is an awesome find. Someone either bought that thing in Nevada or brought it here from working a mine. Very cool find. The excitement tells me it was a legit find.
 

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