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Aric said:
Marius,
1. I have been told that the stone house that Waltz built, that never had a roof and that no longer stands faced the northwest. 2. If the mine faced the east the stone house would have faced the northeast. 3. When the Peralta miners were murdered by the Apache Indians they were murdered on the west side of the Superstition Mountains. If the mine faced the east I believe the Peralta miners would have been murdered on the east side of the Superstition Mountains. 4. Waltz said you can see the military trail from my mine but you can't see the mine from the military trail. The mine has to face the west from 270 degrees-300 degrees.

Aric
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Waltz did not build a stone house he camped near a old stone foundation
 

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Greenhorn19,

I am in complete agreement with Randy here. The closer you can get to the source, the better the information. Ely and Bark got closer to first hand than about anybody else (that wasn't drunk).

You likely won't find a cheap copy. Here is one currently on ebay:

Lost Dutchman Mine

....and the Book by Estee Conatser:

The Sterling Legend

Two great books. Also, Thomas Glover's books. I can recommend Helen Corbin's First Dutchman Book: "The Curse of the Dutchman's Gold" her second book (Bible on the Lost Dutchman)has some issues with false information given to Helen. Nothing to do with her, but her source for a bunch of info is now suspect. Still a good book though.

Mike
 

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gollum said:
Greenhorn19,

I am in complete agreement with Randy here. The closer you can get to the source, the better the information. Ely and Bark got closer to first hand than about anybody else (that wasn't drunk).

You likely won't find a cheap copy. Here is one currently on ebay:

Lost Dutchman Mine

....and the Book by Estee Conatser:

The Sterling Legend

Two great books. Also, Thomas Glover's books. I can recommend Helen Corbin's First Dutchman Book: "The Curse of the Dutchman's Gold" her second book (Bible on the Lost Dutchman)has some issues with false information given to Helen. Nothing to do with her, but her source for a bunch of info is now suspect. Still a good book though.

Mike
Click to expand...

Mike,

Dr. Glover used the same source as Helen Corbin for some of the information in his first book. Might want to wait for the two new books he has coming out.

Take care,

Joe
 

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cactusjumper said:
Mike,

Dr. Glover used the same source as Helen Corbin for some of the information in his first book. Might want to wait for the two new books he has coming out.

Take care,

Joe
Click to expand...

Any more information on the new books Dr. Glover is working on? Would look forward to some quality new LDM books.
 

gollum said:
Doesn't have anything to do with whether Waltz was honest or not. Waltz didn't have any reason to lie to Rhiney or Julia during the eight months he was bedridden and was taken care of by Thomas and Petrasch. The REAL problem is that first hand conversations with Jacob Waltz are EXTREMELY RARE! Most of what we know now comes from two places:

1. What Waltz said to Rhiney and Julia that was told to Sims Ely and Jim Bark, and are included in Sims Ely's Book.

The problem with what Waltz said to Rhiney was that Rhiney was half drunk most of the time and didn't pay a ton of attention to what Waltz was telling him. His brother Hermann blamed Rhiney's drinking on them not being able to locate Waltz' Mine, and never spoke to him again.

2. What Dick Holmes said Waltz told him while on his death bed.

The only information for that is in the Holmes Manuscript. You have to believe in the authenticity of the Manuscript to believe in the story Waltz supposedly told to Dick Holmes and Frank Alkire. Dick Holmes denied he wrote that published manuscript.

So........ we have the recollections of a drunk. The recollections of a woman that knew nothing about mining. The written words of a manuscript that the person whose name is on that manuscript said he didn't write.

What is left is mostly anecdotal and circumstantial.

THAT is why the LDM has not been found since Waltz sealed it up in about 1890.

What hard facts do we have?

ORE: The ore from under Waltz Bed was assayed by Joseph Porterie, who was also the Chief Assayer at the Vulture Mine. Some people (even today) think that Waltz ore was highgraded from when he worked at the Vulture. First; there is no record of Waltz having ever worked at the Vulture. Second; Joseph Poerterie said that the ore from under Waltz' Bed was NOTHING LIKE Vulture Mine Ore (and he would know seeing as he was the Chief Assayer at the Vulture).

Jewelry: Some of the jewelry made from Waltz' Ore is still around. Likely all in one private collection. The match safe is the most famous, and Brownie Holmes notarized description and measurements of it make it unlikely that the one we know is not the original one.

The Peralta/Gonzalez Connection:

The LDM is supposed to be one of the eight or so mines of the Peralta/Gonzalez Families' that had been sealed by Apaches after they had massacred a large mining party. The problem with that is that there are ZERO records of the Peralta or Gonzalez Families' doing any mining in the Superstitions.

What supports this thought:

Peralta/Gonzalez Family Oral Histories. They both talk about a mining party of about 200 people that were massacred shortly after the US?Mexico War (1847).

We have several Spanish/Mexican Style packs found rotted in and around The Massacre Grounds. The Apache would have eaten the mules, and had no need for gold back then. When the pack mules started bucking and kicking during the fighting, several packs would have fallen off, being loaded with hand cobbled rich gold ore. Silverlocke and Malm found just such a load. They found rich float gold in a spot of the Massacre Grounds. They sold all that gold and spent all that money searching for the vein that didn't exist (because the gold they found came from the massacre). Every so often, people find rich float. Nothing underneath, and no vein anywhere. What that is, is gold from the massacre that has been sitting on the surface since that time.

............ but to me, the biggest evidence to prove the Peralta/Gonzalez Families' had hidden gold mines in and around the Superstitions are two things that I have posted about several times:

1. The "Pit Mine"

2. The Mormon Stope of the Mammoth Mine

Two mineshafts hidden, then much later accidentally found and worked for millions of dollars in rich gold ore.

There is a lot of BS surrounding the LDM. There is a ton of circumstantial and anecdotal evidence to support the story, but the reason it hasn't been found yet (that I know of), is that there is so little documented evidence. If Rhiney hadn't been a drunk, then he may have payed more attention to Waltz, and he. his brother Hermann, and Julia Thomas would have found the mine in 1892 when they went looking.

THAT is also what makes the LDM so fun (and frustrating at the same time) to look for!

Mike
Click to expand...

Now that's what I'm talkin' 'bout
 

gollum said:
<cut>
What hard facts do we have?

ORE: The ore from under Waltz Bed was assayed by Joseph Porterie, who was also the Chief Assayer at the Vulture Mine. Some people (even today) think that Waltz ore was highgraded from when he worked at the Vulture. First; there is no record of Waltz having ever worked at the Vulture. Second; Joseph Poerterie said that the ore from under Waltz' Bed was NOTHING LIKE Vulture Mine Ore (and he would know seeing as he was the Chief Assayer at the Vulture).

Jewelry: Some of the jewelry made from Waltz' Ore is still around. Likely all in one private collection. The match safe is the most famous, and Brownie Holmes notarized description and measurements of it make it unlikely that the one we know is not the original one.

<cut>
What supports this thought:

Peralta/Gonzalez Family Oral Histories. They both talk about a mining party of about 200 people that were massacred shortly after the US?Mexico War (1847).

We have several Spanish/Mexican Style packs found rotted in and around The Massacre Grounds. The Apache would have eaten the mules, and had no need for gold back then.
<cut>
Click to expand...

Great post - should save tenderfeet untold hours trying to sort out the legend. Your summary of the lack of facts supporting the legend ought to be food for thought for those who are committed to finding the mine.

The ore. Two points to consider. One: if it's true that Waltz's gold ore came from a cache acquired by nefarious means (murder?) and his "mine" was only a cover story - as has been speculated by some - then the box of ore could have come from anywhere in the region. It's even possible he came into possession of the ore before moving to Phoenix and brought it with him. As long as we're speculating, Waltz may have waylaid argonauts returning east from one of the rich early lode mines in CA or AZ, gathered up their picture rock, then moved to Phoenix for a fresh start where he would have been unknown. The prospecting trips, hidden mine innuendos, etc. might have all been eyewash to explain the ore. Big question: would he have continued the deception even on his deathbed? Some people would have come clean at this point, others would not want to admit their sins. Waltz? Who knows?

Apaches and gold. There seems to be more than a little testimony that the Apaches knew the value of gold and exploited it when possible, despite the modern "Tears of Ussen" touchy-feely stuff. Two books in particular, written by Anglos who were in the Southwest prior to the influx of settlers ca 1860, seem to bear this out - particularly The Marvelous Country by Samuel Cozzens. Cozzens was all over the Southwest 1858-1860 and was an extended guest at the camp of Mangus Coloradas. While Cozzens had little good to say about Mangus, he was very aware of his secret gold mine somewhere in the Gila headwaters region. In Life Among the Apaches, John C. Cremony, scout and interpreter for the Boundary Commission Survey, made it clear that the Apaches were tolerant of miners in their country (even at Pinos Altos, as he learned while camped at the nearby Santa Rita mines in 1850). It was only after Mangas was murdered that the big, big trouble began for Anglos. Many of the period newspaper reports and following books on the Apache wars confirm that the Apaches traded gold for supplies (especially ammunition), primarily in Mexico - especially at Janos, where they had many allies. They grew to hate miners and other intruders, yes, but they were also smart enough to know how the possession of gold could benefit them.

Whatever happened in the Superstitions in 1847 was Apache vs Mexican. The Apaches, while tolerant for years with the early Anglos, had a much longer-standing hatred for Mexicans. If there was an Apache massacre of Mexican miners there, it's unclear why they would have left the gold behind, if that's what happened. Maybe the ore wasn't rich enough to lug around. To me, it's plausible that the Waltz story and the Peralta story are totally unrelated except by the proximity of early Phoenix and the Gila/Salt mountains - which, by the way, was quite a significant journey on foot leading a pack animal in those days.
 

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somehiker said:
121 inches on the centerline of the circle.
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Thank you for that. 121 inches wide in total, left to right. Correct? You didn't by chance see a variety of stones (the material) or does it look like it was made from the same random stones found nearby?
 

SDCFIA,

I agree that anybody's decision to investigate or hunt the LDM should be based on ALL the evidence currently known (Good and Bad). Its called making an informed decision. HAHAHA

That said, you aren't taking many things into account. One of the most important are the modern tests that were performed on samples of known Superstition Gold by SEM (Scanning Electron Microscope) through the efforts of Dr Thomas Glover for his book on the LDM. The ore tested does not match any ore from any known mine. PERIOD. The person that did the tests stated that the ore was from an unknown source. If Waltz didn't have a mine, and his ore was from places he previously worked, it would not be an unknown source. He worked at the Hydraulic Mines in the San Gabriel Canyon in California (about 5 miles from where I am sitting), and the Bradshaw Mountains in Arizona. The California Operation where he worked was all placer and would not be that kind of ore (mostly nuggets maybe with a small bit of quartz attached). Maybe from the Bradshaws, but Porterie would have known what Bradshaw Ore looked like. Also, the modern SEM Tests would have spotted Bradshaw Ore.

He also told Julia and Rhiney both that he had made three caches of the same rich gold ore and stashed them not far from his mine "you can't find my mine without knowing where the caches are, and you can't find the caches without knowing where my mine is..."

You are also making some serious assumptions about Waltz' Character based on nothing documented. But like you state "speculating":

As long as we're speculating, Waltz may have waylaid argonauts returning east from one of the rich early lode mines in CA or AZ, gathered up their picture rock, then moved to Phoenix for a fresh start where he would have been unknown.
Click to expand...

There is just as much probability in that as there is for the story about Waltz trading salt for gold with the Ant People that live in tunnels under the Supers. HAHAHA People who rob and steal, don't just stop robbing and stealing. They usually find that robbing and stealing is a much easier way to make money than working for it. They are only stopped when they are caught or killed (...or meet a good woman in the case of "The Unforgiven"). No, I think that if Waltz had stolen the candlebox ore, we would have heard about him robbing other miners in the area. He would probably have been arrested for it, or killed because of it. The only story about Waltz intentionally murdering people was in The Holmes Manuscript, but that entire thing is suspect because George Holmes stated unequivocally that he didn't write it. There are also some pretty big factual inaccuracies. Other than that, he admitted killing two Mexican Peons believing they were Indians at the site of his mine.

Mike
 

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markmar said:
The Haywood mine is not in Peter Mesa . You have to mix the words in the travel story and to put them in a logic sequence to find the right region .
Click to expand...

I didn't say the Haywood mine was on Peter's Mesa. According to the story it would be somwhere north of Peter's Mesa. I included the story/maps to somewhat reinforce "my" idea that there could be something around Peter's Mesa/ Peter's Canyon/Pistol Canyon. Looking at the Haywood map shows that at the top of Squaw and Old Squaw Canyon would put you on top of Peter's Mesa. For the mine that Haywood describes you would then have to go North approximately a mile or so...towards Malpais Mountain.
 

pkdmslf said:
I didn't say the Haywood mine was on Peter's Mesa. According to the story it would be somwhere north of Peter's Mesa. I included the story/maps to somewhat reinforce "my" idea that there could be something around Peter's Mesa/ Peter's Canyon/Pistol Canyon. Looking at the Haywood map shows that at the top of Squaw and Old Squaw Canyon would put you on top of Peter's Mesa. For the mine that Haywood describes you would then have to go North approximately a mile or so...towards Malpais Mountain.
Click to expand...
Very curious!
 

pkdmslf said:
I didn't say the Haywood mine was on Peter's Mesa. According to the story it would be somwhere north of Peter's Mesa. I included the story/maps to somewhat reinforce "my" idea that there could be something around Peter's Mesa/ Peter's Canyon/Pistol Canyon. Looking at the Haywood map shows that at the top of Squaw and Old Squaw Canyon would put you on top of Peter's Mesa. For the mine that Haywood describes you would then have to go North approximately a mile or so...towards Malpais Mountain.
Click to expand...

PKDMSLF,

You have put a mark in a quietly well known area. Many people before you find that area very interesting. Many years ago, I said virtually the same thing. I theorized that many of the stories that lead people to the Weaver's Needle Area were made up by locals trying to keep the Tourist Dutch Hunters away from where they thought the LDM was. Which was somewhere in the Black Mountain/Peter's Mesa/Tortilla Mountain Area. When I said that, a few older Dutch Hunters got very quiet. A couple confided in me that I had chosen a very interesting place to put my "X". It was a prime spot for Peter, MK Roberts, Jim Hatt, and several others. That is the reason why about 90% of my trips into the Supers have been to that area from a couple of different directions.

Without looking up the story for specifics, I remember a conversation regarding Adolph Ruth and Peter's Mesa. Joe (Cactusjumper), please correct me if I have misremembered any of the story. Adolph Ruth disappeared from his camp in 1931. Nine months later, his skull first, then skeleton later were found about a half a mile apart. The story is that Tex Barkley found Ruth's body in a place where he knew there were LDM Monuments, and didn't want a bunch of people nosing around. From what I remember of the story, Barkley said it looked like Ruth was sitting on a rock and was shot as he was turning around. He then moved the body to where it was later found by Brownie Holmes and the archaeological party. A very interesting thing to think about is Brownie Holmes' description of the skeleton. He stated that the skull was "green", meaning that small bits of flesh were still visible on it. A skull sitting on the ground for nine months would be both dry and barren of ANY flesh. First animals would have scavenged the body, then bugs would have stripped any remaining flesh. Seems like Ruth was buried then dug up and deposited where the archaeological party would find it. Another part of the story is that he talked about Ruth being shot with a big bore gun, and suddenly Hermann Petrasch's pistol turns up missing.

Mike
 

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he admitted killing two Mexican Peons believing they were Indians at the site of his mine.

Mike
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did JW say what he did with the bodies?
 

cw0909 said:
did JW say what he did with the bodies?
Click to expand...

I would have to check and see, but I don't think so. Probably buried them not too far away.

Mike
 

gollum said:
<cut>
(Point 1) That said, you aren't taking many things into account. One of the most important are the modern tests that were performed on samples of known Superstition Gold by SEM (Scanning Electron Microscope) through the efforts of Dr Thomas Glover for his book on the LDM. The ore tested does not match any ore from any known mine. PERIOD. The person that did the tests stated that the ore was from an unknown source.
<cut>
(Point 2) You are also making some serious assumptions about Waltz' Character based on nothing documented. But like you state "speculating":
<cut>
There is just as much probability in that as there is for the story about Waltz trading salt for gold with the Ant People that live in tunnels under the Supers. HAHAHA People who rob and steal, don't just stop robbing and stealing. They usually find that robbing and stealing is a much easier way to make money than working for it. They are only stopped when they are caught or killed (...or meet a good woman in the case of "The Unforgiven"). No, I think that if Waltz had stolen the candlebox ore, we would have heard about him robbing other miners in the area. He would probably have been arrested for it, or killed because of it. The only story about Waltz intentionally murdering people was in The Holmes Manuscript, but that entire thing is suspect because George Holmes stated unequivocally that he didn't write it. There are also some pretty big factual inaccuracies. Other than that, he admitted killing two Mexican Peons believing they were Indians at the site of his mine.

Mike
Click to expand...

Point 1. I read the book. Glover made a decent case that the ore did not match the selected ore samples saved from a part of the Vulture Mine, as I recall, and maybe some other grab samples saved from some of the the Gila/Salt area mines. Fine and dandy. PERIOD.

The rest of your statement implies that the "LDM sample" was matched against samples from "all known mines", which is absurd. In the first place, where exactly is this database and/or ore sample collection that includes all these known mines? Mines from CA, AZ, NM, MX, CO, et al? Hundreds of mines, many of them with different geology in different parts of the same mine. Possibly thousands of potential matches. Who exactly was it that collected these samples and stored them, and where are they available for analysis? Glover didn't provide these details.

Secondly, and more to the point, why would anyone believe that all the point sources of rich ore with visible gold showing (picture rock) from the early Anglo period are known? There were thousands of small mines, glory holes, shallow prospects, etc that yielded picture rock in various quantities. Hell, there's an old Spanish/Mexican glory hole ten minutes from my house that has never even been claimed that yielded several pounds of thick wire-gold as recently as 40 years ago. The hole was never more than six feet deep. The matchbox ore is terrific stuff, sure, but by no means unique. Not even close.

Point 2. That's right, speculating, like everyone else, including your last paragraph above. I don't know what the ant people reference is that you're braying about, but I do know my speculations are at least plausible. Neither you nor I know for certain what happened (I notice you haven't provided one of your guarantees) - that's why folks are still discussing the topic.
 

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