Need help with aging this beautiful peice

[Holly_squirrel]

I wanted to find something decorative.... Finally I did.... In a big way. This won't thrill men like a civil war buckle would ... Lol ... But I'm in love with it. Backstory... My grandparents passed and I was detecting at their old property. Part of this was sticking out of the creek bed... There was like a landslide of tbe bank ... And there this was. My mom said as a kid she remembers them digging at tbe spike of this thing.



Then it was covered up... I guess it's been working its way out in recent years. There is a property in view of this thing, that was built in late 1800s and another even older than that. This didnt wash down from them, because it wouldn't had to go upstream... But maybe it was dumped. I've spent hours on it already .. It was like a huge barnacle... But the iron is so incredibly durable and non brittle... So given all that info can anyone give me an educated guess at the age?



I made Buddy sit in for size reference... Lol.. Not happy about being told to sit and stay

 

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[buttedigger]

I agree with diesel you need a cheep plug in and charge type charger that runs until you unplug.

 

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[Paleopilot]

Try a bit of Epsom salt in the water...this will increase the conductivity of your electrolyte which will in turn increase the load on the charger. Never use table salt! You will produce hydrogen sulfide and chlorine gas! I prefer a mixture of white distilled vinegar, Epsom salt and distilled water. This works well for deplating. I use a stainless steel anode, (minus pole), cathode is the piece to be deplated. The material that is being removed will migrate to the stainless plate, which needs to be cleaned off periodically during the process. Vary the size of your tub to whatever you are cleaning.
Electrolyte formula is; one tablespoon epsom salt to one cup distilled water, then add a equal amount, "one cup" distilled white vinegar. I use a DC power supply of non variable12 Volts at 3.8 Amps. This system has worked well for me. It is non toxic and environmentally friendly. I can post up some pics if you like as time allows.

 

[VictorVincimus]

Holly. Use the washing powder in the water. 1 tablespoon for every gallon. Also. You can't use an automatic charger. Get a cheap charger from walmart that you just plug in. It will work.

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[dieselram94]

Some times you can find a cheep charger at garage sales for almost free. I know this is bad but I don't even measure the washing soda as I add it into the water!

 

[Holly_squirrel]

The washing powder alone works I found. I still want to get a charger ... But I decided to throw some stuff into the tub without the battery hookup. After about 8 hours I went n checked the stuff( these were peices that I originally had spend good amounts of time on brushing , picking at,sanding. Chunks started falling off the old metal hub from a wooden wheel. At first I was like, " oh no, I destroyed all this stuff!" But as I kept flicking the chunks off, I started to see the stuff take on a new shape ... And lose half it's girth and realized I was all build up... Details started to show that I didn't see before. Anyone else try it before without the charger?

 

[dieselram94]

Never tried it without charger. Just wait until you see how awesome it works when you get a different charger.

 

[Holly_squirrel]

Time.. Till I melted something with it on start engine.. Been down hill since . Can I buy one at Walmart without an auto shut off? They still sell them ?

 

[dieselram94]

Time.. Till I melted something with it on start engine.. Been down hill since . Can I buy one at Walmart without an auto shut off? They still sell them ?

Yup, walmart is your best bet. Just make sure you get one that says manual. They are pretty cheap. Get one that allows different amps. I leave mine on 50 amp engine start for electrolysis with no issues and it came from walmart.

 

[Paleopilot]

Yup, walmart is your best bet. Just make sure you get one that says manual. They are pretty cheap. Get one that allows different amps. I leave mine on 50 amp engine start for electrolysis with no issues and it came from walmart.

Please do not regard this response as any attempt of disrespect or anything of that nature, because it is not. Washing powder or other alkylbenzenesulfonates will work with hard water to remove foreign material from metal items, however, as an electrolyte, to make your solution conduct electricityfor electrolysis, Magnesium sulfate is far superior, (Epsom salt). Mild citric acid, (vinegar) is also a very good conductor. For this reason you don't need 50 Amps of electrical current to remove metal solids. (rust, or iron oxide). By the way that much current, even at 13 or 14 volts, typical charger voltage, can be very dangerous! For small work, with a good electrolyte, one or two amps at only 6 volts will work well. Small battery chargers make an excellent power supply for removing oxide with electrolysis. The "key" is conductivity. Tap water is conductive, it's why you should never use it in a lead/acid battery, you will short it out! If you have a VOM meter, volts per ohm, you can quickly see the conductivity of your solution, more resistance, more conductivity. Distilled water is non-conductive, that's why you use it in lead/acid batteries, 10% sulfuric acid being the electrolyte.
I might add, if you are using two unlike metals in a conductive solution, especially with citric acid, you have created a battery. After you turn off the power supply, you need to remove one or both metals from the solution. If you don't, the process will reverse itself! The metal that you removed will return to where it came from. Copper especially!

 

[dieselram94]

Please do not regard this response as any attempt of disrespect or anything of that nature, because it is not. Washing powder or other alkylbenzenesulfonates will work with hard water to remove foreign material from metal items, however, as an electrolyte, to make your solution conduct electricityfor electrolysis, Magnesium sulfate is far superior, (Epsom salt). Mild citric acid, (vinegar) is also a very good conductor. For this reason you don't need 50 Amps of electrical current to remove metal solids. (rust, or iron oxide). By the way that much current, even at 13 or 14 volts, typical charger voltage, can be very dangerous! For small work, with a good electrolyte, one or two amps at only 6 volts will work well. Small battery chargers make an excellent power supply for removing oxide with electrolysis. The "key" is conductivity. Tap water is conductive, it's why you should never use it in a lead/acid battery, you will short it out! If you have a VOM meter, volts per ohm, you can quickly see the conductivity of your solution, more resistance, more conductivity. Distilled water is non-conductive, that's why you use it in lead/acid batteries, 10% sulfuric acid being the electrolyte.
I might add, if you are using two unlike metals in a conductive solution, especially with citric acid, you have created a battery. After you turn off the power supply, you need to remove one or both metals from the solution. If you don't, the process will reverse itself! The metal that you removed will return to where it came from. Copper especially!

I know you dont need 50 amps but it does work faster...and you are right on the distilled water. However I have never tried vinegar or epsom salt. It does sound interesting though.

 

[TheCannonballGuy]

Holly, here are a few more tips for you about doing Electrolysis-cleaning of iron relics, based on my 35+ years of doing it.

First... above every other priority, NEVER touch ANY part of the electrolysis setup when the charger is plugged in. You mentioned getting a shock. You can't get shocked when the charger isn't plugged in. Even as little as 1/4-amp can kill a human being -- and with electrolysis, we're talking about a lot more than 1/4-amp.

You've got to achieve a good "electrical" (not merely physical) connection between the clamp and the iron relic. As you know, a car's battery-cable clamps can be in physical contact with the battery's terminal-posts, but the car won't crank. The clamp must be in (clean) electrical contact with the terminal-post.

To achieve good electrical contact, I use a file to make a tiny (BB-sized) shiny-clean spot on the rusty iron, and put the clamp's tip directly onto that clean spot. That is what I did on the very tip-end of the barrel of Breezie's cap pistol. (For more info abouit it, see the final paragraph of this post.)

It's best not to put the charger-clamp into the water. At the very most, and only when absolutely necessary, I put just 1/4-inch of the clamp's tip into the water.

For objects I cannot clamp onto, such as the round surface of a Solid-Shot cannonball, I drill a very tiny (3/32-inch) hole into the iron, about 1/4-inch deep. Then I remove the 3/32 drillbit from the drill, and put the drillbit's smooth end into the 1/4"-deep hole. Then put the clamp's tip onto the grooved end of the drillbit. That lets me keep all of the clamp out of the water.

High amperage will clean faster, but it is "harsher" to the iron. There is no need for 50 amps, and that much can be destructive to a "fragile" original iron surface -- which is where any markings will be. Six amps is plenty enough to be effective, and I prefer just one or two amps.

As I said, the "skin" of the iron is where any markings will be. (Such as, the date on a civil war rifle's lockplate.) You've seen how a street's flat asphalt paving eventually develops small cracks, which enable water to get under the top layer of paving. With additional time, the top layer becomes brittle, and will "scale" off. High-amperage electrolysis is like using a pressure-washer on the brittle pavement. Very-low-amperage gives you "gentler" removal of the rust-encrustation, possibly saving the date-marking (or other markings) on the iron's weakened original surface. For example, by using 1-amp electrolysis on Breezie's famous "Sambo" cap-pistol, I was able to save almost all of the lettering on it. (Perhaps somebody here can find links to the two discussion of her Banner find here at Treasurenet, in the Today's Finds and the What-Is-It categories.)

 

[Holly_squirrel]

Holly, here are a few more tips for you about doing Electrolysis-cleaning of iron relics, based on my 35+ years of doing it.

First... above every other priority, NEVER touch ANY part of the electrolysis setup when the charger is plugged in. You mentioned getting a shock. You can't get shocked when the charger isn't plugged in. Even as little as 1/4-amp can kill a human being -- and with electrolysis, we're talking about a lot more than 1/4-amp.

You've got to achieve a good "electrical" (not merely physical) connection between the clamp and the iron relic. As you know, a car's battery-cable clamps can be in physical contact with the battery's terminal-posts, but the car won't crank. The clamp must be in (clean) electrical contact with the terminal-post.

To achieve good electrical contact, I use a file to make a tiny (BB-sized) shiny-clean spot on the rusty iron, and put the clamp's tip directly onto that clean spot. That is what I did on the very tip-end of the barrel of Breezie's cap pistol. (For more info abouit it, see the final paragraph of this post.)

It's best not to put the charger-clamp into the water. At the very most, and only when absolutely necessary, I put just 1/4-inch of the clamp's tip into the water.

For objects I cannot clamp onto, such as the round surface of a Solid-Shot cannonball, I drill a very tiny (3/32-inch) hole into the iron, about 1/4-inch deep. Then I remove the 3/32 drillbit from the drill, and put the drillbit's smooth end into the 1/4"-deep hole. Then put the clamp's tip onto the grooved end of the drillbit. That lets me keep all of the clamp out of the water.

High amperage will clean faster, but it is "harsher" to the iron. There is no need for 50 amps, and that much can be destructive to a "fragile" original iron surface -- which where any markings will be. Six amps is plenty enough to be effective, and I prefer just one or two amps.

As I said, the "skin" of the iron is where any markings will be. (Such as, the date on a civil war rifle's lockplate.) You've seen how a street's flat asphalt paving eventually develops small cracks, which enable water to get under the top layer of paving. With additional time, the top layer becomes brittle, and will "scale" off. High-amperage electrolysis is like using a pressure-washer on the brittle pavement. Very-low-amperage gives you "gentler" removal of the rust-encrustation, possibly saving the date-marking (or other markings) on the iron's original surface. For example, by using 1-amp electrolysis on Breezie's famous "Sambo" cap-pistol, I was able to save almost all of the lettering on it. (Perhaps somebody here can finds link to the two discussion of her Banner find here at Treasurenet, in the Today's Finds and the What-Is-It categories.)

I'm gonna copy this and keep it. Thank you. One more thing.. When doing multiple relics, you can put wire around them then group the wire together and clamp it? Does it have to be a specific wire or will any do? Everybody told me it was toy safe, after I got a nice shock... I'm thinking electric and water hmmmmmm, where's the danger there? Lol

 

[dieselram94]

Holly, you can group items together but really its best done as single items. Grouped items tend to take longer to clean. If grouping I use just cheap bare mechanics wire.

 

[Paleopilot]

Some facts about electrolysis...
Two leads, running from the terminals of a battery, are placed in a cup of water with a quantity of electrolyte to establish conductivity in the solution. Using NaCl (table salt) in an electrolyte solution results in chlorine gas rather than oxygen due to a competing half-reaction. With the correct electrodes and correct electrolyte, such as baking soda, hydrogen and oxygen gases will stream from the oppositely charged electrodes. Oxygen will collect at the positively-charged electrode (anode) and hydrogen will collect at the negatively-charged electrode (cathode). Note that hydrogen is positively charged in the H2O molecule, so it is "pulled out" at the negative electrode. (And vice versa for oxygen.)
Or just drop a fresh 9V radio battery in a glass of water and watch the bubbles. Note there will be twice as many bubbles coming from the negative post, (cathode) as the (anode), or positive post. You are "breaking" water to it's primary elements of Hydrogen and Oxygen. The two main component's of rocket fuel! The higher the current, the more vigorous the reaction.
As Cannonball suggested, lower voltage and less amperage is better for cleaning purposes. (Slow and gentle is always better).
I have also been doing electrocleaning and reverse electroplating for many years. I have found that not only a solid attachment of your power source to your piece important, but where, you attach is very important. I have constructed some stainless clamps that allow the piece to be cleaned attached as closely as possible to both sides. This technique "balances" the electron flow more evenly from the object's "mass". A stainless bar connects the clamps in the center and carries the current evenly. I use a solid stainless plate for the cathode. A stainless spoon handle works just fine for smaller jobs and is done in a wide mouth canning jar.
My primary method of restoring old tools and other smaller objects is the use of several tumblers that I "homebrewed". They use water and various shapes of ceramic media. The rubber drums turn slowly and sometimes for days. I've found nothing better for this purpose!
Good luck with your find...keep us posted.

 

[ctrelicman]

grave yard fence

 

[dieselram94]

Instead of drilling a hole in a object why could you not clean a spot off (wire brush) and use a welders magnetic ground clip?
Like this one?

 

[dieselram94]

Holly, here are a few more tips for you about doing Electrolysis-cleaning of iron relics, based on my 35+ years of doing it.

First... above every other priority, NEVER touch ANY part of the electrolysis setup when the charger is plugged in. You mentioned getting a shock. You can't get shocked when the charger isn't plugged in. Even as little as 1/4-amp can kill a human being -- and with electrolysis, we're talking about a lot more than 1/4-amp.

You've got to achieve a good "electrical" (not merely physical) connection between the clamp and the iron relic. As you know, a car's battery-cable clamps can be in physical contact with the battery's terminal-posts, but the car won't crank. The clamp must be in (clean) electrical contact with the terminal-post.

To achieve good electrical contact, I use a file to make a tiny (BB-sized) shiny-clean spot on the rusty iron, and put the clamp's tip directly onto that clean spot. That is what I did on the very tip-end of the barrel of Breezie's cap pistol. (For more info abouit it, see the final paragraph of this post.)

It's best not to put the charger-clamp into the water. At the very most, and only when absolutely necessary, I put just 1/4-inch of the clamp's tip into the water.

For objects I cannot clamp onto, such as the round surface of a Solid-Shot cannonball, I drill a very tiny (3/32-inch) hole into the iron, about 1/4-inch deep. Then I remove the 3/32 drillbit from the drill, and put the drillbit's smooth end into the 1/4"-deep hole. Then put the clamp's tip onto the grooved end of the drillbit. That lets me keep all of the clamp out of the water.

High amperage will clean faster, but it is "harsher" to the iron. There is no need for 50 amps, and that much can be destructive to a "fragile" original iron surface -- which is where any markings will be. Six amps is plenty enough to be effective, and I prefer just one or two amps.

As I said, the "skin" of the iron is where any markings will be. (Such as, the date on a civil war rifle's lockplate.) You've seen how a street's flat asphalt paving eventually develops small cracks, which enable water to get under the top layer of paving. With additional time, the top layer becomes brittle, and will "scale" off. High-amperage electrolysis is like using a pressure-washer on the brittle pavement. Very-low-amperage gives you "gentler" removal of the rust-encrustation, possibly saving the date-marking (or other markings) on the iron's weakened original surface. For example, by using 1-amp electrolysis on Breezie's famous "Sambo" cap-pistol, I was able to save almost all of the lettering on it. (Perhaps somebody here can find links to the two discussion of her Banner find here at Treasurenet, in the Today's Finds and the What-Is-It categories.)

This is very good detailed info. I should have stated that the items I clean are all heavy iron cast and otherwise. Like tools, heating grates, ect. So I use the 50 amps as I am not worried about loosing any slight detail or destroying the object. Thank you for posting this.

 

[Paleopilot]

Instead of drilling a hole in a object why could you not clean a spot off (wire brush) and use a welders magnetic ground clip?
Like this one?

You could but, because of it's composition it would be literally "eaten". Clean steel will begin to dissolve first.

 

[HutSiteDigger]

Speaking of some grave-yard talk... I've actually been in grave-yards over in France before where they had iron gates like in the photo around the grave then also up above too prevent vampires/zombies,etc from getting into the grave.

I have dug several several Victorian iron fences like this around old house sites before (sorry unless they are made of gold or silver I cant normally haul em back to the truck mainly due too all the house sites we hunting being off in the woods) If I had too throw down $20 I would date it to about 1880s-1920s but im leaning more toward the late 19th century.

 

[Holly_squirrel]

Speaking of some grave-yard talk... I've actually been in grave-yards over in France before where they had iron gates like in the photo around the grave then also up above too prevent vampires/zombies,etc from getting into the grave.

I have dug several several Victorian iron fences like this around old house sites before (sorry unless they are made of gold or silver I cant normally haul em back to the truck mainly due too all the house sites we hunting being off in the woods) If I had too throw down $20 I would date it to about 1880s-1920s but im leaning more toward the late 19th century.

OMG... I'd haul em out even if it gave me hemmroids , lol. It's like the ultimate Find to me.. Sturdy iron, beautiful .... Decorative . And it is made like a tank... How in the world it remained in that condition in a creek bank for how many years is unbelievable. Can't wait to get back n look for more