NEED HELP Please read UPDATED

Re: NEED HELP Please read

I shot the Chief an Email and this is their responce to my question. I asked, Is there an Ordinance or Law concerning the use of -
Metal Detectors or Detecting on City Park Property and or Beaches. This should help in your Defence 8) billin, sorry to jump on ya,
there is a lot of bad Officers! no doubt. Just wanted you to know that I or anyone not sworn can get the info on anybody.
 

Re: NEED HELP Please read

A lot of info can be found useing that route.But it is against the law for a officer to use there data base for some one else,evan for an ex cop.And really speaks bad for the ones willing to break the law that are sworen to up hold it.The fact that they think they are above the law is where all the problems are coming from.When you talk to some friends that are officers there is a big differance in there view of there job .depending on how long they have held it.The longer they are on the job the more it becomes us against them.And the faster they close ranks around the one in trouble.I have not taken any offense about what any body has written.There are good people on the force,,Just none that can really stand out as a (what I would desribe as a GOOD COP) When I see a polce officer stand up in the face of his fellow officers and say this has to stop.Then my mind will start to change. Till then I will stand by what I said..HH
 

Re: NEED HELP Please read

I would follow Rooster's advice to the T.
You should have dug a rather large hole and stuffed his a$$ in it !!
Flip Flop
 

Re: NEED HELP Please read

A POST OF MINE FROM THE BEGINING OF THE YEAR: LONG STORY: Well my new safari came in yesterday and since i was off work today i decided since it was nice, to go out and try it. I went to an old house foundation on forest service land where alot of people go to ride atv's and just get out to have a picnic or whatever. Most of where i live is forest service land. The roads were clear of snow finally and most the area so i was excited to get to beeping. (Mind you i brought the honda accord since the wife had the jeep). Well the roads looked good and were solid so i wasnt afraid to go down them. Then i hit a soft spot. The car sunk in the awful sticky mud we have here. I called my wife and she came from work to pull me out. The jeep just slipped. So i called my uncle and he brought out the hemi dodge and a winch. We got it out and were just about to leave when a forest service truck shows up. I figured he thought he could help. No instead he gives me a $275 ticket for damaging the road? Like i intentionally did it. I said "Well it isnt bad i will fill it in". He still gave me the ticket saying i was lucky he didnt give my wife one too. He then proceeded to leave and he himself got stuck and buried his new dodge hemi almost up to the frame. He barely made it out. He left some ruts so big that mine looked like little bicycle tracks compared to his. I had to laugh at the fact i made it further in my little honda than he did in his truck. So after getting the car home i started making calls. First call was to the local Ranger, head of the station. He thought it wasnt fair but couldnt do anything. So he gave me the number of the state captain. I explained the incident to him and he said he would talk to him and asked if i took pictures and i said yes. He wanted me to email them to him so now i just need to hear back. Good ole Murphy's law i tell ya. Well i hope the rest of you actually found something today. lol. And i am stubborn when it comes to whats right and i wont back down. If this isnt resolved i will contact the local news station and if need be i will go to jail before i pay it. Somebody has to stand ground. Our country has gotten so bad that we are losing all of our freedoms. including ones we pay taxes on . -I MEAN really? i dealt with an idiot as well. Except i found out there is no way i could fight it without making it worse on myself. **Most bad government has grown out of too much government.-Thomas Jefferson
 

Please contact Tim and express how you feel about criminal charges for metal detecting!!!!!!! Info is at the top of the page. Thank you
 

Re: NEED HELP Please read

augusthog said:
nuggy said:
Send a copy of the video with covering letter, to news desks of local tv channels, send one to police chief, another to the mayor, and maybe one to the head of the park maintainance crew. Should get some dust flying. Some people should not be permitted to become police officers, the power goes to their heads if they lack the necessary integrity. Nuggy
Click to expand...
I agree with nuggy! Put it on youtube also and go nation wide!
Click to expand...

I have to agree as well.. The media LOVES police harassment stories. This needs to be made public.

Yes this is harassment and props to you for standing your ground. You were doing nothing wrong and there is no reason to cower as if you were. Stand tall and be proud. You will win this!
 

I agree with Trixie Charger he cited you for something that you were guilty of.

During your fight, you need to expose the pictures of this 'officers' tire tracks in the turf, and get them to define how/why that is permitted and the photos you show of plugging a coin in good grass, and leaving the area with no sign showing is NOT permitted.

If you get the chance (probably not) invite them to a demonstration right there in the courthouse lawn (with their permission).

I fear you might be jousting a windmills............ :( and marking yourself as a target for further harassment by the same 'officer' and/or his cronies.

So many laws on the books don't make sense to normal people, but these 'thug... er officers' can still write tickets on them and if they keep you in their scopes your life can become miserable.

But, you know what you're doing and I wish you luck and a complete win.
 

A couple years back I had a run-in with the park rangers at my favorite park that I've been hunting for decades.

One day while detecting, I was approached by a young gal who didn't like me or my detecting and wanted me to leave. I told here I had every right to be there and refused to leave. She stomped away and left me alone.

5 minutes later, park ranger cars come from all directions up the road and across the lawn and stop in a group near me... 4 park rangers get out and proceed to encircle me with guns drawn. I heard the closest one screaming profanity at me, so I took off my headphones so I could understand what he was saying. He was yelling about me getting arrested and going to jail for destroying public property among other things. He was VERY disrespectful and hostile and it really took me back, because I had no clue where they were justified in their demeanor.

He proceeds to ask me why I "disobeyed a park employee's direct order". I tried to explain that the girl who yelled at me had no uniform or anything on identifying her as an employee, nor did she ever tell me who she was and I frankly doubted that she had any authority to enforce laws or determine wether or not I was breaking any. I disputed his charge of destroying public property by asking him to find one single area that I damaged and I expressed my displeasure with being harassed. Every answer I gave made him more agitated and he was now in my face, gun drawn at his hip and his buddies closed around me. He was seriously close to throwing me down and arresting me. I am not kidding or embellishing any... this was a truly surreal experience to say the least.

I recognized the gravity of the situation from the very outset and never spoke in a disrespectful tone... I addressed him as "Sir" with every sentence and kept my voice low and calm. I didn't want to upset him anymore than he was, BUT I was NOT going to cow down before him and leave without him telling me what specific ordinance I was in violation of. He quoted "destruction of public property" and explained that everytime I put my digger in the ground I was destroying the grass. I rattled off about 100 other cases of destroying grass from squirrels and dogs to his patrol car parked on the lawn that go unpunished. I also told him that of all the "offenders" out there destroying the grass, metal detectorists are the only ones who actively repair what "damage" we do.

A long discussion ensued with him about me and my hobby and having express permission to do it. I went into detail about how long I've been doing it and the many police officers who work in the park who know me and are fine with me hunting. I emphasized that I was a responsible person who leaves no damage, cleans up trash, and helps other park goers find lost personal items. He bagan to calm down and talk in a civil tone. He realized I wasn't a threat to anyone and that I had good intentions. The girl who first saw me overreacted and overstepped her authority in confronting me instead of calling the park rangers first.

The conversation ended with the ranger being apologetic for his conduct and having a good deal of respect for me and my efforts of enjoying my hobby in a responsible manner. He suggested that I talked to the head ranger for clarification on hunting in the park and suggested I hunt in not-so-public areas of the park to avoid similar situations.

My attempts to contact park authorities went nowhere because noone would meet with me or give me any interpretation of the "destruction of public property" laws, so I gave up and I just kept on doing what I've been doing for many years without any more trouble. I think they were actively avoiding meeting with me.

The point is, we have an obligation to be accomodating to the public or law enforcement when it comes to disputes like this because they often have a misperception about us and what we do. We also have to stand up for our rights and let noone unjustly take them away. Law enforcement is exactly what it says... enforcing laws in existance and not arbitrarily inventing ones to push us around. If the first contact with an officer does not go your way obey their directives, then follow up with their superiors later on to clarify the laws that do or don't pertain to detecting. Educate them - tell them you are a responsible person enjoying your right to the pursuit of happiness. Most people have a negative perception about us, and we have to be the ones to change their view.

If I had just left that day without saying a word, those rangers would have continued running detectorists out of the park, basically enforcing a defacto ban on detectors without any law backing them up. In this case a bad experience with a "bad cop" was turned into a positive one with a "good cop". Granted there are some law enforcement individuals who will be prejudiced against us regardless. Threatening arrest without a specific charge is illegal and will land a cop in hot water and they know it so intimidation is used.

Good luck with your situation and I wish you the best,
Mike.
 

Capndan, I hope the Email helps :icon_thumright: That shows you how they can get ya!

Bill-USA, thank ya. The smoking gun is the Officers Tire ruts in the lawn :icon_thumright: He's gotta get all his Ducks in a row. Go in with all the things we all have spoken about.

Just a side note, I'm not sure if anyone has a CCW??? I applied for mine almost a year ago, after that from March until now, I have never been pulled so much in my life!!!! They have no reason to pull me at all, I obey all Traffic Laws, my car has nothing wrong. I brought it up with a friend who is a Sheriff and was told that when you get a CCW there is a tag put on you. When a Officer gets behind you and runs your tag, it pops up that your Armed and they pull you to see if you have anything illegal. My dad has the same problem, as well as my Father-inlaw and 3 brother-inlaw and 2 sister-inlaws. We all get pulled a lot!!!. You would think they would realise that A Citizen that applies for and receves a CCW has NO!!! Criminal Record!!!!!!!!!!!! and obeys the Law. I Carry to protect myself and Family, not to get Harassed by Officers! but its so hard to prove that's why they pulled, all they have to say is I looked suspicious and acted erratically.
 

Re: NEED HELP Please read

EagleDown said:
I was a career cop, until I was injured in the line of duty. I started out as low man on the totum pole, as most cops do. I worked my way up to Chief of Detectives/Deputy Chief. And, I LOVED MY JOB!! It was my chosen way of helping people. And I had a very good reputation for fairness and honesty, to the extent that I had judges stop an attorneys line of questioning, stating: "This court has complete confidence in this officers integrity and will not permit this line of questioning". And yes, I lost a few cases in court because I would not lie just to get a conviction! And, when I reached the point that I had a little authority, there were several cops who lost their badges for actions like this. That is; if it was a pattern with multiple complaints. (As it "might" be with this "officer".) "Over-blown sense of power".

That being said, I'm not sure of the process here in CA, but in FL, only the Mayor had the power to hire and fire police officers. The Chief could only reprimand or suspend, (pending investigation.) Anyway, I still take offense at the statement: "All cops are bad". I would like to run a check on a person who made a statement like this and see how many times they've been in trouble with the law.

capndan151, you've some very good, level headed advice from some good people. I would agree with; "keep it local". Good luck with whatever you decide. Myself? I would talk to the Chief and try to resolve it internally. That might not make you any new friends with the cops, but at least it shouldn't make you any new enemies. :laughing7:

Eagle
Click to expand...
Well said, I second that motion.
 

Mike Moutray said:
A couple years back I had a run-in with the park rangers at my favorite park that I've been hunting for decades.

One day while detecting, I was approached by a young gal who didn't like me or my detecting and wanted me to leave. I told here I had every right to be there and refused to leave. She stomped away and left me alone.

5 minutes later, park ranger cars come from all directions up the road and across the lawn and stop in a group near me... 4 park rangers get out and proceed to encircle me with guns drawn. I heard the closest one screaming profanity at me, so I took off my headphones so I could understand what he was saying. He was yelling about me getting arrested and going to jail for destroying public property among other things. He was VERY disrespectful and hostile and it really took me back, because I had no clue where they were justified in their demeanor.

He proceeds to ask me why I "disobeyed a park employee's direct order". I tried to explain that the girl who yelled at me had no uniform or anything on identifying her as an employee, nor did she ever tell me who she was and I frankly doubted that she had any authority to enforce laws or determine wether or not I was breaking any. I disputed his charge of destroying public property by asking him to find one single area that I damaged and I expressed my displeasure with being harassed. Every answer I gave made him more agitated and he was now in my face, gun drawn at his hip and his buddies closed around me. He was seriously close to throwing me down and arresting me. I am not kidding or embellishing any... this was a truly surreal experience to say the least.

I recognized the gravity of the situation from the very outset and never spoke in a disrespectful tone... I addressed him as "Sir" with every sentence and kept my voice low and calm. I didn't want to upset him anymore than he was, BUT I was NOT going to cow down before him and leave without him telling me what specific ordinance I was in violation of. He quoted "destruction of public property" and explained that everytime I put my digger in the ground I was destroying the grass. I rattled off about 100 other cases of destroying grass from squirrels and dogs to his patrol car parked on the lawn that go unpunished. I also told him that of all the "offenders" out there destroying the grass, metal detectorists are the only ones who actively repair what "damage" we do.

A long discussion ensued with him about me and my hobby and having express permission to do it. I went into detail about how long I've been doing it and the many police officers who work in the park who know me and are fine with me hunting. I emphasized that I was a responsible person who leaves no damage, cleans up trash, and helps other park goers find lost personal items. He bagan to calm down and talk in a civil tone. He realized I wasn't a threat to anyone and that I had good intentions. The girl who first saw me overreacted and overstepped her authority in confronting me instead of calling the park rangers first.

The conversation ended with the ranger being apologetic for his conduct and having a good deal of respect for me and my efforts of enjoying my hobby in a responsible manner. He suggested that I talked to the head ranger for clarification on hunting in the park and suggested I hunt in not-so-public areas of the park to avoid similar situations.

My attempts to contact park authorities went nowhere because noone would meet with me or give me any interpretation of the "destruction of public property" laws, so I gave up and I just kept on doing what I've been doing for many years without any more trouble. I think they were actively avoiding meeting with me.

The point is, we have an obligation to be accomodating to the public or law enforcement when it comes to disputes like this because they often have a misperception about us and what we do. We also have to stand up for our rights and let noone unjustly take them away. Law enforcement is exactly what it says... enforcing laws in existance and not arbitrarily inventing ones to push us around. If the first contact with an officer does not go your way obey their directives, then follow up with their superiors later on to clarify the laws that do or don't pertain to detecting. Educate them - tell them you are a responsible person enjoying your right to the pursuit of happiness. Most people have a negative perception about us, and we have to be the ones to change their view.

If I had just left that day without saying a word, those rangers would have continued running detectorists out of the park, basically enforcing a defacto ban on detectors without any law backing them up. In this case a bad experience with a "bad cop" was turned into a positive one with a "good cop". Granted there are some law enforcement individuals who will be prejudiced against us regardless. Threatening arrest without a specific charge is illegal and will land a cop in hot water and they know it so intimidation is used.

Good luck with your situation and I wish you the best,
Mike.
Click to expand...
:headbang: :headbang: :notworthy:
 

Capndan, lots of good advice on this thread.

A couple thoughts: IMO the law you are accused of breaking is written in vague language. No surprise there. For example, what does displace mean? If the soil we dig is put back into the same spot, have we displaced it? Hmm? As juror number 1, I think not. Now the dirt from the officer's burnout, that's displaced!!!! How about remove? Again, the dirt is put back where we found it. What was removed? Doesn't the intent of the law mean removed from the park? Then there's tamper. Exactly what is tampering? To interfere in a harmful manor. Is that what you were doing? Again, juror number 1 votes no. And on it goes.

Another thought is that when it comes to the prosecutor, remember this politcal appointee isn't interested in justice or even what's fair. His/her job is to get a conviction and make the cash register ring. That's it. To that end the prosecutor will try to get you plead to a lesser charge. if they are like many small town prosecutors they will try to extort you into giving up your right to a trial. Just know this; prosecutor, not your friend, not your best avenue to settle this in your favor. The good news is that most of these clowns weren't top of their class material.

Lastly, there is the judge. This is another problem. The judge and the prosecutor play for the same team. Both got their jobs as a form of pay to play political payback. Both draw their salary from the same source. Unfortunately, in NJ recently, two Muni court judges were caught on tape coaching procecutors out of earshot of the defense, on how to corner the defense and warrant conviction. The tapes came to light on appeal. It's dirty out there, understand that this is the playing field you are headed to. Not that you can't get a fair shake. Just forwarned is forarmed.

Good luck!!!!
 

Good points tjc45. Just jogging through the park can "displace" dirt. Are they going to make that illegal too? Unfortunately all of that does not matter to them. Ultimately they can just re-write the code and ban metal detecting.
 

Here's one way to skirt the vandalism ordinance.. If the officer insists that displacement or disturbance of soil was the cause for the citation, ask a pointed question...

Pointed Question: If there had just been a rainstorm, and the soil was wet, would you (the officer) ticket every person who walked over the soil in the park?

The officer would obviously answer no, but this would serve to your advantage as leaving footprints in mud also by definition are displacing soil.
 

Living in New Orleans I have seen a fair share of stupid tickets handed out, sometimes for "offenses" that don't actually exist. My general experience has been that if the cop knows it's a bogus ticket he probably won't even show up for the court date, and that will be the end of it. Good luck in your fight, hopefully you'll win your case or it will simply be dismissed.
 

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