My Stone Tool Finds

[Dave N Japan]

I have posted this on Todays' Finds also,
But now what is it?... I may have to take a trip to the museum to find out,but if anyone may know what these are for.. I would be happy to find out.. I'm a little reluctant to take them to the local archaeologist, If you know what I mean? Maybe someday!

Anyway, these are the pictures with a nickle in the picture for size.

The small ones are 3 CM and the large one is littler over 5 cm tall.

They all have two holes, one on the side and one in the bottom.
Of the 4, three look like they have burn makes on the bottom...see pictures. I'm thinking they had something to do with fire or making fire or used to light pipes in some way or maybe are pipes of some kind before metal pipes. They all have holes on top for a small cord.

Like I say, I found the large one 20 years ago while digging up a old coin. The other three were close together this weekend at a cave entrance. The big one was found near a castle site.
Any help by anyone that may idea or have seen something like this in other countries, please let me know...
Thanks Dave

 

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[tinpan]

hi dave nice relics,i have no idea but my guess is japanese skateboard wheels
lol

tinpan

 

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[Dave N Japan]

Thanks Diving Doc, I have found many of those pipes and they look as if they have the same function as these stones, maybe in more early times.

 

[EDDE]

#21

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

[=CaptainZossima ]
Even if this koan is never solved...I always wake up when I see Dekalb33's icon...I think I'm becoming obcessed!!!
Cappy Z.
*********
Sheehs DeK: send him a 1/4# of salt Peter or a similar anaphrodisiac.

Tropical Tramp

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

DUH ladies Gentlemen: Are we forgeting something? We are speaking of finds in Formosa, not Japan proper.

Even today Japan does not consider Formosans's as full Japanese citizens.:

In those days they were even poorer than the Japanese poor, so they had to do with what they could find, construct, or afford, also they had different customs etc..

In the US we have everything from Elaborate expensive pipes down to the old corncob. The same existed for Formosa.

Remember, genrally only the obviously valuable things were kept for the future, or in the case of these cheap pipes, sheer quantity.

The rings/holes in the base are simply for a carrying cord since most dress of that period did not have pockets.

Tropical Tramp

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

YEP!

Tropical Tramp

 

[Dave N Japan]

As you can read below, These caves go way back and the pipe may have developed over many years, Then again maybe these items were used to keep and fire going..we will find out someday...I just need some time!Okinawa proper and Taiwan did not have much of a relationship, Of the reading I have done, The island to the south of okinawa had a relationship with Taiwan (Formosa) While Okinawa and Islands to the north had more of a relationship with Japan, due to Middle Jomon items found on the island (5000 BC)

Okinawa lies at the southwest tip of the Japanese archipelago and consists of a chain of a great number of islands. Presently the islands of Okinawa are sandwiched between the Japanese mainland and continental Asia but in ancient times they were connected to the Asian continent. There was migration from the continent by flora and fauna as evidenced by fossils unearthed in excavations.
It is not clear when humans came to inhabit the islands but fossil human bones from the Yama#@!$%#@!a-cho Cave 1, excavated in Naha City, have been positively dated to 32,000 years ago and, in Gushigami-son village, the remains of the Minatogawa people have been dated to 17,000 years ago. These Paleolithic humans are thought to have crossed over on a land bridge from continental China but exact details remain unknown.
The Paleolithic Age in Okinawa

From the era of the Minatogawa humans there is a blank spot in our knowledge for about 10,000 years until the Neolithic era, around 7,000 years ago. This period in Japan extends through the Jomon Period (to 200BC) and is divided into the Early, First-half, Middle, Late, and Final Jomon Periods and as well as the Yayoi Period (200BC to 250AD). The Early and First-half of the Jomon period was one of thriving exchange between Okinawa and Kyushu. The middle period saw the development of independent cultures on the Okinawa and Amami Islands but the exchanges with Kyushu resumed in the Late Jomon. By the end of the Jomon, villages were forming and there appears to have been contact with China as well. These periods can be said to have been eras of active exchange with Kyushu.
In the Yayoi there are many remains in the coastal sand dunes where artifacts show trade with both Kyushu and China. Shells of Tricornis latissimus shellfish, used as raw material for making shell products, are typical of goods transported to Kyushu at that time. Aside from the earthenware brought in from Kyushu, the custom of burial in box-shaped stone coffins was transferred from Kyushu.
From the Kofun (Tumulus) era (250-552AD) through to the Heian Period (749-1185 AD), the society on the Okinawa and Amami Islands was in the hunter-gatherer stage and there was little contact with mainland Japan.

 

[diggummup]

Thanks Dave!

 

[Gypsy Heart]

Sorry ...I didnt realize there were two separate threads going on this subject. I am leaning heavily toward the Edo Era .....and feel these are temple chimes. I initially thought trawling or net sinkers, but the more I compare them with the larger stone chimes and the readings of the Edo temples , I think they are chimes .

 

[EDDE]

Knock Knock Knock
Who is it?
It's Dave open the door i got the stuff.....
Who?
Dave!
WHO?
DAVE!
WHO?
Its Dave open the door
Dave ?
YES DAVE
DAVES NOT HERE.....

 

[Dave N Japan]

Daves here....Dave s about to go to bed...Went to the library...no luck! Thanks everyone...Well, Gypsy, that sounds good, but I don't see much of a chime coming from these rocks Hard to see in pictures, but they just don't seem to be that from here.
and the burn marks are a puzzle...but I think they must be something to do with smoking or starting a fire.
I will try another library tomorrow.
Thanks Guys...Now get out there and find that $20.00 Gold Coin!

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Geeze, I guess that I am not "quite" as perfect as my personal belief claims & hopes, sigh, I have no idea why I posted Formosa, but it obviously should have been "Okinawa" since Dave is there, and that is where he found them.

Apologies peeps. (Doc excluded ) hehehe

However, i will stick to tobaco smoking pipes, size is too small for a convenient fire (coals) holder, too short a time, perhaps for only a few hrs at best..plus most of the so called combustion marks are much higher, basically where any normal pipe's are, not in the bottom.

Mi Gypsy love, for once I disagree with you on the bell thingie. The construction is to thick for any normal audible or pleasing resonance besides they do not appear to have been fired at a high enough temp which would be needed, i must admit that I too thought of temple bells at first, but construction and size quickly eliminated that for me. They are obviously manufactured and fired, not native stone. The thickness may have been a form of keeping the pipe cool.

smooch anyways?.

Tropical Tramp

p.s. Somewhere in the deep iddeen recesses of my icky mind, I seem to remember seeing an Oriental gentleman with a pipe suspended from his right shoulder/neck by an elaborate cord.

Another thing that bothers me is the sheer smallness of the Japanese pipes shown. They would hardly hold more than one puff or two which, I believe that you smokers out there will agree, would not be very satisfying. The size is more in line with with the Opium pipes that I have seen. These use a small pea sized ball of Opium in the bowl which is then heated over a small flame and the smoke inhaled unitll the user ascends into her/ his personal heaven for a bit before decending into a more permanent hell..

 

[Gypsy Heart]

See Jose....I waiver back and forth....Opium pipe....yes...But then as of yet I have found nothing...no reference ...no photo which resembles these....have searched the museums and nada...the only thing close that I can find is the temple chime that even resembles it in looks. So the search continues....

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

=diving doc 1150380237]
Dave, thanks very much for the history post, that was excellent. It looks like your artifacts are way ahead of the introduction and use of Tobacco and Opium in the historical context. Which leaves us at the begining of this post, stone tools............function??
Doc
*******
smoking tobacco, hheh see modified post above,

Tropicsl Tramp

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

[gypsyheart
See Jose....I waiver back and forth....Opium pipe....yes...But then as of yet I have found nothing...no reference ...no photo which resembles these....have searched the museums and nada...the only thing close that I can find is the temple chime that even resembles it in looks. So the search continues....
**********
O-HI-O my Gypsy love: No way that can you get a pleasing resonance out of these pipes.

Temple bells manufactured out of ceramic materiel - and these thingies were - would have to be much much thinner. the basic difference would be if you tapped my head as against Dek's, mine would go "ting" while his would go "clunk".

Also any temple associated thingies are always made as perfect as possible, these are definitely not Temple quality, more in line with my personal abilities. sniff..


Tropical Tramp
Reread my above post #44

 

[Gypsy Heart]

[gypsyheart
See Jose....I waiver back and forth....Opium pipe....yes...But then as of yet I have found nothing...no reference ...no photo which resembles these....have searched the museums and nada...the only thing close that I can find is the temple chime that even resembles it in looks. So the search continues....
**********
O-HI-O my Gypsy love: No way that can you get a pleasing resonance out of these pipes.

Temple bells manufactured out of ceramic materiel - and these thingies were - would have to be much much thinner. the basic difference would be if you tapped my head as against Dek's, mine would go "ting" while his would go "clunk".

Also any temple associated thingies are always made as perfect as possible, these are definitely not Temple quality, more in line with my personal abilities. sniff..


Tropical Tramp
Reread my above post #44

Ahhhhh Jose....but the ancients did indeed make stone bells and chimes....unpleasing as a sound as it could be.....and the size of the holes were to make different tones......But .....I am not convinced of anything yet...as no one can produce a photo or drawing that looks like Daves finds....so we keep searching...I know that stone hand pipes were used...for whatever...herbs...medicinal...healing....as well as opium and tobacco...but I havent found one yet with a stone eyelet on it yet....still looking....so far weights and sinkers...pipes and bells....think people think......all Japanese items seem to be made with the utmost care...pleasing to the eye...these items are crudely made at best....so I am thinking they go farther back than what we are looking .......

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

K, DAVE carbon date the charcoal in these "tobacco smoking pipes" for a fair date to go on, he he.

Silly suggestion, take them to the local Museum for identification and period of probable use. If they can't identify them, then you will be filling in an unknown niche in history and they belong in the Museum.

Side thingie, they were in extremely common usage since enough have survived for Dave to find this many. This alone precludes temple bells, but again points directly to tobacco pipes.

Most of the pictures of the pipes that have been posted in here appear to be Opium pipes, since the bowls and first part of the stems are of metal, generally brass and small. This is necessary since the bowl must be inserted into a flame to cook the Opium, this also would heat the first part of the stem so the metal section is extended for cooling purposes, this not necessary for ordinary Tobacco.

Final thingie, why do we insist that it was tobacco that they smoked in these pipes? Perhaps they used another plant with presently unknown features?

Tropical Tramp

Let us just clear the opium issue. The mechanics of smoking opium do not lend themselves to the use of our objects. For one, the aperture for the stem is much to large and the bowl is too large and still would have some evidence ingrained. If one tried to use our stone objects for opium one would be stoned on the first hit, dropping pipe and breaking toe. Not the way it is done, and NO Jose I won't trade opium for peyote. and NO Jose, I won't tell war stories on this or any other forum.

Doc

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

DAVE: square one, are these made of native stone or manufactred ceramic pieces, i.e. crudely fired clay "tobacco" pipes heheh.

Second, how about a tape or size given ? What is the diameter of the opening of the bowl etc., etc.?

Blind man's bluff can only be played so far.

TropicalTramp

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

=diving doc
I agree, just what were they putting in those pipe thingies anyway??
Doc
*******
HI DOC, now "that" might be worth fortune, let's have Gypsy try it out first .hehehe.

Tropical Tramp

 

[Gypsy Heart]

=diving doc
I agree, just what were they putting in those pipe thingies anyway??
Doc
*******
HI DOC, now "that" might be worth fortune, let's have Gypsy try it out first .hehehe.

Tropical Tramp

They dont call me medicine woman for no reason....hahaha....since I grow and gather alot of medicinal herbs...I am always trying different remedies :P.......maybe I would be enlightened by a great vision and see what this thing really is....hahahahahah


I already told Dave to light it up and take a toke...