My abbreviated theory for the Knights Templar treasure in Nova Scotia

[lokiblossom]

Loki, my friend, I as well as you and everyone else. do not know how the coir found in Oak Island got there beyond supposition and speculation, but what all know, including you,is that the coirsample is not evidence or proof in anyway that the Templars brought it to Oak Island.

No, unless you or one of your disciples comes up with some viable information otherwise, it is evidence of a Knights Templer presence on Oak Island!

Cheers, Loki

 

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[ECS]

No, unless you or one of your disciples comes up with some viable information otherwise, it is evidence of a Knights Templer presence on Oak Island!

Haven't seen you present any "viable information" at all, only fallacy logic attempting to connect that coir with Templars, so why are you requesting "viable information" that from others?
There is no way that the coir sample can be accepted as evidence of a Templar presence in Oak Island.

 

[Charlie P. (NY)]

Unknown to you! The evidence is in the fact that everyone in the Eastern Mediterranean used "coir" for ships rigging's and any other place ropes would be used, as well as thousands of other uses. Coir was manufactured in India from where it made its way to the countries of the Eastern Med. through overland trading.

The Knights Templar's who by the middle of the 12th century had developed their own substantial fleet based in the Eastern Mediterranean would have equipped this fleet the same as any Arab vessel of the period. They kept increasing the number of vessels while replacing older ones throughout their 200 year sojourn in the area. While it is also true they had a vessel or two based in Southern France at the Port of Marseilles they were only allowed to make one voyage a year from that port to carry pilgrims to the Holy Land.

Hemp, sisal, jute, flax, wool . . . basically any natural fiber or plant with bast cells can be used to make rope. Why import coir? It would be an unfamiliar fiber and shorter than most readily available hemp and flax fibers.

Did they find any coir rope on Oak Island? No. They found degraded fibers that may or may not be coconut husks. You make far too many grand assumptions.

 

[petetherocker]

just because no one is offering up another theory, doesn't make your speculation theory valid,,,,,as ECS said, the coir sample is not evidence or proof in any way that the Templars (or anybody else for that matter) brought it to Oak Island...

like your car on the driveway, it's only proof that 'it's there' not that the Templars parked it there...

 

[ECS]

Than how do you think it got there? You must have an idea if you are so adamant about mine!

It was probably the damaged discarded front doormat of Donald Daniel McGinnis father.
That is, as you refer as "viable information" because evidence is that McGinnis's father was actually on Oak Island, whereas there is no such evidence that the Templars ever set foot on Oak Island.
It is time to abandon this coir means the Templars were on Oak Island endless and quite useless dialog.
Once and for all, that coir samples only proves that it was found on Oak Island, nothing less, nothing more.
You can not prove that it wasn't McGinnis's father's discarded doormat any more than you can prove it was brought there by the Templars.

 

[lokiblossom]

Hemp, sisal, jute, flax, wool . . . basically any natural fiber or plant with bast cells can be used to make rope. Why import coir? It would be an unfamiliar fiber and shorter than most readily available hemp and flax fibers.

Did they find any coir rope on Oak Island? No. They found degraded fibers that may or may not be coconut husks. You make far too many grand assumptions.

Not sure what your asking Charlie. Imported to Europe, "no", it was only brought to France by the Knights Templar because it was what they had and used in the Eastern Mediterranean. Imported to the Eastern Med. by Arab traders, "yes", because other materials for making better quality rope was not readily available in the Eastern Mediterranean. These are facts, you can look them up!

Certainly the coconut fibre dated as it is and "positively" ID'd several times by several different entities is evidence of a Templar presence on Oak Island. ECS and any of his disciples pushing for me to discontinue this idea will have to push for a long time.

Cheers, Loki

 

[ECS]

...
Certainly the coconut fibre dated as it is and "positively" ID'd several times by several different entities is evidence of a Templar presence on Oak Island...

Certainly you have absolute documented evidence that "positively" proves that Templars actually made a voyage to Oak Island, verified and confirmed by "several different entities" that establishes this "Templar presence" outside of your imagination and the imaginations of Baigent, Leigh, Lincoln, Halpern, Ruh, Muir, Wolter, and our good friend Franklin.
Without that acknowledge and accepted collaborating documentation verified by the professional academic community of a Templar voyage to the New World, all you possess is a premise founded on a sample of what may or may not be coconut coir that
makes one mind wander and imagine various fantasies on how it arrived on Oak Island.
It is curious , Loki, why you never mention the other tests that were not conclusive with the 14th century date, giving a range up to the 18th century, or the tests that stated the sample was so contaminated, that ID of it actually being coconut coir was debatable.

 

[lokiblossom]

Certainly you have absolute documented evidence that "positively" proves that Templars actually made a voyage to Oak Island, verified and confirmed by "several different entities" that establishes this "Templar presence" outside of your imagination and the imaginations of Baigent, Leigh, Lincoln, Halpern, Ruh, Muir, Wolter, and our good friend Franklin.
Without that acknowledge and accepted collaborating documentation verified by the professional academic community of a Templar voyage to the New World, all you possess is a premise founded on a sample of what may or may not be coconut coir that
makes one mind wander and imagine various fantasies on how it arrived on Oak Island.
It is curious , Loki, why you never mention the other tests that were not conclusive with the 14th century date, giving a range up to the 18th century, or the tests that stated the sample was so contaminated, that ID of it actually being coconut coir was debatable.

There was no range to the 18th century in any of the coconut fibre tests. The latest any single sample was dated to was a range of from 1168-1326.

One sample was mentioned as too degraded to test, other samples were ok to test, why is that a problem? I was going to buy an older boat but it was in bad shape (degraded) so I found another one of the same year in good condition.

Cheers, Loki

 

[ECS]

I noticed you ignore providing documented evidence that is acknowledged by the legitimate professional academic community of historians concerning if a Templar voyage was actually ever established as to having been done.
You keep repeating, Loki, that because coir was found on Oak Island means the Templars left it there, but where is any evidence that this Templar voyage was ever made?
Claiming the Templars sailed to Nova Scotia based on the hearsay testimony of de Chalon's having "heard that 18 galleys set to sea from La Rochelle", is not a positive eyewitness account proving of proof of any galleys leaving La Rochelle, much less that they journeyed to the New World or anywhere else.
So far, all that you have presented is putting the cart before the horse, or the coir before the voyage, and without proof of this alleged voyage, all that remains is rampant speculative imagination lacking real substance.

 

[Raparee]

No, unless you or one of your disciples comes up with some viable information otherwise, it is evidence of a Knights Templer presence on Oak Island!

Cheers, Loki

Sweet baby Jeebus. Francis Bacon is spinning in his grave.

There is nothing to even suggest to a reasonable person that the Templars were responsible for the coir on OI ... if that’s what it is. And unless you or one of your disciples come up with some viable information otherwise, it is evidence of Romulan presence on Oak Island.

 

[petetherocker]

Certainly the coconut fibre dated as it is and "positively" ID'd several times by several different entities is evidence of a Templar presence on Oak Island.

Cheers, Loki

Only in your imaginary world..

 

[ECS]

...unless you or one of your disciples comes up with some viable information otherwise, it is evidence of a Knights Templer presence on Oak Island!

We are all waiting for you to present "viable" evidence documented and verified that the Templars ever made any voyage to Oak Island/Nova Scotia'
All you constant coir claims only proves that some coconut coir was found on Oak Island, THAT's IT!
No proof of how it got there or if it was brought there by Templars, pirates, McGinnis family as a door mat, flotsam, jetsam- just continuous speculative that proves absolutely nothing, Loki.
Now if you produce a contemporary Medieval document that proves the Templars actually made this voyage, that would be real evidence.
Until then, your coir premise is a belief for the gullible conspiracy minded who purchase the books of profit oriented quasi historians like Baigent, Leigh, Lincoln, Muir, Halpern, Ruh, Wolter, who base their alternative fictional fantasies on minimal fact.

 

[lokiblossom]

It is curious , Loki, why you never mention the other tests that were not conclusive with the 14th century date, giving a range up to the 18th century, or the tests that stated the sample was so contaminated, that ID of it actually being coconut coir was debatable.

Its amazing to me that you can make statements like this and then blow them off when I show you are completely wrong. There was also the two tests the current owners of the island had done with the same basic results.
Flotsom from India, hmm, show me how that can happen if you want a fantasy.

There was no range to the 18th century in any of the coconut fibre tests. The latest any single sample was dated to was a range of from
1168-1326.

One sample was mentioned as too degraded to test, other samples were ok to test, why is that a problem? I was going to buy an older
boat but it was in bad shape (degraded) so I found another one of the same year in good condition.

Cheers, Loki

 

[ECS]

Its amazing to me that you continue promoting coir as evidence that Templars set foot on Oak Island and totally ignore the question concerning the lack of contemporary Medieval records, documents, etc, as evidence that this alleged voyage never occurred.
You have yet to provide collaborating records, documents, inventory lists that confirm the Templars actually possessed and used coconut coir.
Supposition and assumption are not considered as evidence, Loki.

 

[ECS]

...
"Coconut coir", a product made from coconut fibre in the area of the Indian Ocean and sold by Indian merchants was known to have been used in the Middle East during the 13th and 14th centurys through Indian trading.
The Templar's were based in the Middle East during that time with a headquarters on Cyprus late in the 13th century until the early 14th.
The Templar Grand Master was summoned from Cyprus by the Pope to Poiters, France in late 1306. de Molay left Cyprus with a large retinue of his forces and much of their treasure, more than likely with coir ropes and packing in their holds in early 1307 knowing full well of the impending trouble for his Order.
Once in French port they would not have unloaded their vessels awaiting whatever trouble came their way.
In September of 1307, one month before the arrests of all Templars in France the vessels along with 2nd in Command of the Order Gerard de Villers left port never to be seen again, more than likely with large amounts of coir still on board. de Villers who is said to have been elected the new Grand Master of the Order (de Molay had been among those arrested on October 13), became the most wanted man in France shortly after this.
A few other European countries did trade in the Middle East during that period, but if they had used coir from there taken it to a home port, unloaded it and then used it for a transatlantic voyage, it would have been well recorded...

The key phrase on post of pure speculation "it would have been well recorded".

Where is it well recorded" that Gerard de Villers left port?
The only mention of de Villers is in the testimony of de Chalons who stated he saw de Villers leading 50 horses.
In the same testimony de Chalons stated that "he heard" that 18 galleys set to sea- no mention of de Villers or any outside collaborating evidence that there ever were 18 galleys that set out to sea.

Where is it "well recorded" that the Templar galleys had coir ropes and packing in their holds and large amount of coir that were never unloaded?

Not all Templar Order of Monks were warriors, there were various craftsmen, cooks, janitors, and clerics who recorded all their banking and trade activities.
Where are all the "well recorded" coir transaction records?
After the October 13th arrests, most of these Templar monks joined other Orders, some employed their cooking and craftsmen skills in the secular world, and a few warrior knights hired out as mercenaries to various kingdoms ( remember, after all, the business of the Templars involved making profits).

The fallacy that is repeated as fact:
Coconut coir was traded in the 13th & 14th century Middle East
The Templars were in the Middle East in the 13th & 14th centuries
Therefor, the Templars traded in coconut coir.

Loki, you base your premise of a Templar voyage to Oak Island/Nova Scotia on coconut coir, but where is the "well recorded evidence" that the Templars actually used coir and MOST IMPORTANT, where is the "well recorded contemporary Medieval evidence" that a Templar voyage to Oak Island ever happened?

 

[DaveVanP]

How detailed do you think the Icelandic Sagas are? It is a fact though that English began to show up in Icelandic waters by the 14th century to fish and for the most part were welcomed.

How do you think the 13th century coir got to Oak Island? Lets hear some other ideas!

Cheers, Loki

You stated they were detailed enough to record a routine return from voyage of residents...and would ignore the unusual visit of strangers.

As far as alternate explanations of "eastern Mediterranean coconut coir...the arrival of Lamanites, Jaredites, and Mulekites fit the bill, is accepted as FACT by over 10 MILLION people, and was documented over 150 years ago. If you wish to go by preponderance of the evidence, it looks dim for the Templars...

 

[lokiblossom]

The key phrase on post of pure speculation "it would have been well recorded".

Where is it well recorded" that Gerard de Villers left port?
The only mention of de Villers is in the testimony of de Chalons who stated he saw de Villers leading 50 horses.
In the same testimony de Chalons stated that "he heard" that 18 galleys set to sea- no mention of de Villers or any outside collaborating evidence that there ever were 18 galleys that set out to sea.

Where is it "well recorded" that the Templar galleys had coir ropes and packing in their holds and large amount of coir that were never unloaded?

Not all Templar Order of Monks were warriors, there were various craftsmen, cooks, janitors, and clerics who recorded all their banking and trade activities.
Where are all the "well recorded" coir transaction records?
After the October 13th arrests, most of these Templar monks joined other Orders, some employed their cooking and craftsmen skills in the secular world, and a few warrior knights hired out as mercenaries to various kingdoms ( remember, after all, the business of the Templars involved making profits).

The fallacy that is repeated as fact:
Coconut coir was traded in the 13th & 14th century Middle East
The Templars were in the Middle East in the 13th & 14th centuries
Therefor, the Templars traded in coconut coir.

Loki, you base your premise of a Templar voyage to Oak Island/Nova Scotia on coconut coir, but where is the "well recorded evidence" that the Templars actually used coir and MOST IMPORTANT, where is the "well recorded contemporary Medieval evidence" that a Templar voyage to Oak Island ever happened?

Wow, I think you have me!

My well recorded comment was that any European vessels that sailed to the Western Atlantic during that period (other than the Templars, who were running from the law) would have been well recorded.

Villiers was the 2nd highest ranking member of the order before the arrest of de Molay, he became the most wanted man in France after 1307. He certainly went somewhere and because of this de Chalons testimony makes perfect sense.

de Molay had just arrived in France (more than likely at La Rochelle, the port the Templars were given complete control of) with several vessels. They had a fleet stationed at La Rochelle away from the Mediterranean for their lucrative wine trade, why would anyone think 18 would be a ludicrous number, besides I don't even need 18 for my premises.

All vessels based in the Eastern Mediterranean used "coir" as it was what was available. It was not the best choice, but other materials were not available that far from Europe at the time. For records all one has to do is look at what was used and available in the Eastern Mediterranean at the time.

I don't think I ever mentioned the Templars traded in "coir" only that they used it, although being also merchants they very well could have.

Not a fallacy at all, "coir" was widely used in the Eastern Med. during the same 200 years the Templars were based in the Eastern Med., therefore the Templars used "coir".

All evidence that some of the Templar vessels that left France in September of 1307 and were never seen again carried "coir" as lines (a sailing term for ropes) sleeping mats, packing and ect.

Cheers, Loki

 

[ARC]

 

[lokiblossom]

You stated they were detailed enough to record a routine return from voyage of residents...and would ignore the unusual visit of strangers.

As far as alternate explanations of "eastern Mediterranean coconut coir...the arrival of Lamanites, Jaredites, and Mulekites fit the bill, is accepted as FACT by over 10 MILLION people, and was documented over 150 years ago. If you wish to go by preponderance of the evidence, it looks dim for the Templars...

Are you playing the LDS card?

Cheers, Loki

 

[DaveVanP]

Since your hypothesis states the Templars departed from New Rochelle, in France, would they most likely have used hemp or flax, rather than coir which was less likely to be available - though it WAS the best choice in the EASTERN Mediterranean...unless you are further suggesting that they loaded up with coir in the eastern Med, already planning to stash their booty in NE North America in a year or two, after spending an extended period in France - where "better materials" were available?