More Bigscoop Tid Bit

[franklin]

Franklin, what was the 1819-1821 individual value of each of the two alleged deposits? Roughly 1 million each, or there abouts?

No the Job Print Pamphlet mentions it would be worth $750,000 and that in 1885. Would have to find the cost of living back in 1819-1822 or at least the value of a dollar. If it was divided 30 individual shares they would have only gotten $25,000 each. Back in 1819-1822 would be considerably less probably only $16,875 each. If you add RM's share then it would be $16,330 for each individual's share.

In 2010 our dollar was worth 0.153 cents. In 1822 it was worth $2,500. and in 1885 it was worth $3,704.
If you had $16,875 in 1822 you would have $42,187,000 of buying power compared to today. So back in 1822 that treasure would have been worth over one and one quarter $Billion Dollars.

 

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[Rebel - KGC]

Several secret expeditions were sent to the Southwest to expel the Spanish from Mexico. There was even a Secret Patriot Army with over 60,000 US citizens serving in the Mexican Army most in the Third Division and about 1,500 of these Republican Army of Texas were killed at the Battle of Medina. Dr. John Robinson was escorting 40,000 rifles and kegs of gun powder to General Toledo when he heard of the massacre. Dr. John Robinson was a General in the Patriot Army appointed secretly by the President. He went to Sante Fe with Lt. Zabulon Pike. Imagine a General taking his orders from a Lt. But any way a lot of this was talked about in one of my CD books. Rebel KGC should have a copy. Dr. John Robinson took all of his patriots to the Battle of New Orleans even though Governor Claiborne as well as all the other Governors had orders to arrest them. That was a cover or vail placed on the whole operation of Dr. John Robinson by the President. I wish I had all of the secret service work done during that time. I do have Dr. John Robinson Journal that I had to order a copy from some University but I can not remember which one.

That I do, "franklin"; very GOOD info... stuff that I didn't know!

 

[bigscoop]

Well, let's do some math;
The first deposit was said to contain:
1014 lbs of gold x 14.5833 (troy ounces) x $18.03 per ounce = $266'661
3812 lbs of silver x 14.5833 (troy ounces) x $18.03 per ounce = $1'002'315
total: $1'268'933

The second deposit was said to contain:
1907 lbs gold x 14.5833 x 18.03 = $501'420
1288 lbs silver x 14.5833 x 18.03 = $338'662
Jewels valued at - $13'000
Total : $853'082
Grand Total- $1268'933 + $853'082 = $2'122'015

Now this is figured using $18.03 as the value per troy ounce as this is what was commonly paid by brokerage firms - their 15%, so if we add in the total value x this 15% then we arrive at a grand value of = $2'440'317 give or take a few dollars.

Anyone notice anything grand about this final figure?

PS: to save on debate as to the price of gold and silver during the period one simply needs to propose that no middleman would have been required and thus just eliminate his cut from the above tables so the higher price per gold/silver would still be reflected in the grand total above, so basically still the same grand total.

 

[bigscoop]

The Adams Onis Treaty realized 1859 spoliation claims from 720 incidents, this resulting in an eventual $5'000'000 that was paid out in spoliation claims. Regardless how one wished to figure things the total sum of the two alleged deposits represents exactly 1/2 of the total spoliation payments, or $2'500'000, give or take a few dollars. Both dates of deposit also correspond in perfectly timed dates of deposits when compared to the signing and ratification dates of the Adams Onis Treaty. In cipher C1 you will also encounter a series of four digit codes ending in 1817, this being the same year that the party was allegedly formed and also the same year in which Jackson entered Florida and the same year in which Laffite relocated to Galveston Island. Keep in mind that Spanish Ambassador Luis D'Onis also hurled these same allegations at the United States.

 

[franklin]

Well, let's do some math;
The first deposit was said to contain:
1014 lbs of gold x 14.5833 (troy ounces) x $18.03 per ounce = $266'661
3812 lbs of silver x 14.5833 (troy ounces) x $18.03 per ounce = $1'002'315
total: $1'268'933

The second deposit was said to contain:
1907 lbs gold x 14.5833 x 18.03 = $501'420
1288 lbs silver x 14.5833 x 18.03 = $338'662
Jewels valued at - $13'000
Total : $853'082
Grand Total- $1268'933 + $853'082 = $2'122'015

Now this is figured using $18.03 as the value per troy ounce as this is what was commonly paid by brokerage firms - their 15%, so if we add in the total value x this 15% then we arrive at a grand value of = $2'440'317 give or take a few dollars.

Anyone notice anything grand about this final figure?

PS: to save on debate as to the price of gold and silver during the period one simply needs to propose that no middleman would have been required and thus just eliminate his cut from the above tables so the higher price per gold/silver would still be reflected in the grand total above, so basically still the same grand total.

bigscoop, You error very badly. The price of gold was $19.39 an ounce in 1822. The going price of silver was less than or equal to $1 an ounce, you were figuring silver at $18.03 an ounce. Silver was not equal in value to gold. When I totaled all of this up at 1885 bullion prices I came up very close to what the author had it totaled at which was $750,000. There is no way the treasure could have been worth $5 Million Dollars in 1822 that would have been worth about $15 Billion in todays dollars or about $500 Million Dollars to each individual.

 

[ECS]

The Adams Onis Treaty realized 1859 spoliation claims from 720 incidents, this resulting in an eventual $5'000'000 that was paid out in spoliation claims. Regardless how one wished to figure things the total sum of the two alleged deposits represents exactly 1/2 of the total spoliation payments, or $2'500'000, give or take a few dollars. Both dates of deposit also correspond in perfectly timed dates of deposits when compared to the signing and ratification dates of the Adams Onis Treaty. In cipher C1 you will also encounter a series of four digit codes ending in 1817, this being the same year that the party was allegedly formed and also the same year in which Jackson entered Florida and the same year in which Laffite relocated to Galveston Island. Keep in mind that Spanish Ambassador Luis D'Onis also hurled these same allegations at the United States.

Jackson's reason to invade Spanish Florida was to stop the Seminole raids into Georgia, and these Georgians had spoliation claims against Spain. Under Adams-Onis Treaty, the United States took up the burden from Spain to settle these claims of American citizens.
A Commission was set up, 1859 claims from over 72 spoliation incidents were looked at, with lawyers Daniel Webster and William Wirt representing many of the Americans with claims.
5 million was paid out to these claimants in what was called a "fair distribution", but the question that needs to be asked is this:
Who received these settlements, and how does any of this have to do with Ward's 1885 Beale Papers?

 

[bigscoop]

bigscoop, You error very badly. The price of gold was $19.39 an ounce in 1822. The going price of silver was less than or equal to $1 an ounce, you were figuring silver at $18.03 an ounce. Silver was not equal in value to gold. When I totaled all of this up at 1885 bullion prices I came up very close to what the author had it totaled at which was $750,000. There is no way the treasure could have been worth $5 Million Dollars in 1822 that would have been worth about $15 Billion in todays dollars or about $500 Million Dollars to each individual.

Not at all what I was getting at.....and in fact I'm glad you posted this. However, and this is what's really important, using "your figures" what was the estimated value of the first deposit. I'll explain later.....but if I present it then some will think I'm only manufacturing to fit a pet theory. But if you present basically the same.....well....rules that out.

 

[bigscoop]

Jackson's reason to invade Spanish Florida was to stop the Seminole raids into Georgia, and these Georgians had spoliation claims against Spain. Under Adams-Onis Treaty, the United States took up the burden from Spain to settle these claims of American citizens.
A Commission was set up, 1859 claims from over 72 spoliation incidents were looked at, with lawyers Daniel Webster and William Wirt representing many of the Americans with claims.
5 million was paid out to these claimants in what was called a "fair distribution", but the question that needs to be asked is this:
Who received these settlements, and how does any of this have to do with Ward's 1885 Beale Papers?

You need to read quite a bit more instead of just grazing the surface as there was "a lot" more going on then just your simplest of explanations. The subject of Florida had been at the center of both Madison's and Monroe's goals for several years, all of this being quite extensively detailed in several documents, records, etc. You have to research the politics, all of them, as time consuming as that might be it needs to be done. Jackson's reasons for entering Florida was just the right excuse at the right time as this is clearly spelled out in available resources/records/documents, etc. I know of no reputable historian in this particular area who doesn't agree with this same summary, in fact a great deal of my own is based on their opinions as well.

 

[bigscoop]

Through 1819 - 1821 silver prices functioned on an exchange where it took roughly 15.50 ounces of silver to equal 1 ounce of gold, so silver was roughly worth $1.25 an ounce. Of course, it doesn't really matter how we figure it but my point is that the two alleged deposits will always figure to be considerably more the 3/4 of a million dollars, way over. The gold value of the second deposit alone was worth something like $540'000 at 19.39 a troy ounce, give or take a few bucks. The first gold deposit was worth roughly $286'000 by itself, so just with the two gold deposits alone we're already over $800'000 and we still have 5100 lbs of silver to sell.

2921 lbs of gold x 14.5833 x 19.39 = $825'971.71
5100 of silver x 14.5833 = 74'374.83 oz silver x $1.25 = $92'968.53
Grand value + $13'000 in jewels = $931'940.24

So my point is.....how did the author figure his math? Or perhaps, when?

 

[ECS]

You need to read quite a bit more instead of just grazing the surface as there was "a lot" more going on then just your simplest of explanations. The subject of Florida had been at the center of both Madison's and Monroe's goals for several years, all of this being quite extensively detailed in several documents, records, etc. You have to research the politics, all of them, as time consuming as that might be it needs to be done. Jackson's reasons for entering Florida was just the right excuse at the right time as this is clearly spelled out in available resources/records/documents, etc. I know of no reputable historian in this particular area who doesn't agree with this same summary, in fact a great deal of my own is based on their opinions as well.

Not only have I read about Florida history, in the late "50's in elementary we were taught Florida history that ended with a field trip to St Augustine. During that time, Robert E Lee's and Jefferson Davis's birthdays were holidays in Florida.
Andrew Jackson invasion in Florida, the Arbuthnot and Ambrister incident were sanction by Monroe and Adams much to the objection of Sec Of War John C Calhoun, to force Spain's hand to give Florida to the United States.
This is what brought about the Adams-Onis Treaty-acquisition of Florida, a portion of Texas, and a stair step boundary to Oregon.
Now with all this talk of secret service, Congress budgets, and spies, what has all this to do with Ward's 1885 Beale Papers?
We know his grandfather was Aide de Camp to Jackson during the Battle of New Orleans, and James Beverly Risqué was one of many who held a Lynchburg banquet for Jackson in 1815, was Risqué with Jackson in Florida during this invasion that forced the Adams-Onis Treaty?
We know that Risqué requested a position in the Florida territory that he never received, so what is the connection to Ward and his published 1885 Beale Papers pamphlet and the Adams-Onis treaty?
If I need to read a bit, or tad more, you need to explain a bit or tad more.

 

[bigscoop]

In the beginning, Monroe, and even Madison, had their sights set on, "all of Texas", Florida, and passage to the Pacific. In undertaking this hugely complicated and risky enterprise they were also aware that it could possibly result in war, a war they could not afford to lose. On top of this it was also recognized that these acquisitions had to be firmly in place before Mexico became involved, for several of the reasons I've already outlined in other post regarding Mexico. If war did come Florida was not the big concern as it was right down the coast and it could be easily accessed, supplied, etc. But the Texas region wasn't so easily accessed and supplied, etc. In fact, the bay at Galveston Island would have been vital in such a conflict, which is one of the reasons why Jackson was in favor of just going and taking it, and had it been left up to him he would have.

Wars cost money, and you do not engage in, or support certain activities that could bring that war about unless you can afford to do so. Since the beginning of man a staple strategy has been to gain control of the enemies resources and then to use those same resources against that enemy. This is exactly what was happening at Galveston Island and the Spanish knew it, even launched complaint against these alleged activities at Galveston Island. So let me ask you, of these accumulated Spanish prizes that included gold and silver and jewels, etc., what do you suppose happen to them after the threat of war was over? Forget the Laffite Memoirs as there exist others sources, such as those previously mentioned Spanish allegations, that prizes were being taken from Spain through the activities at Galveston Island so there is no doubt that noticeable property/wealth was acquired. So, once the threat was over, who did it all belong to? Who go to keep it? Where did it all go?


And this brings us right back to that chronological order of the dates of deposit and the signing and ratification of the Adams Onis Treaty, and also the ten-year term which eventually realizes that critically vital Treaty of Limits in 1828. So what I am proposing to you is that the deposits were actually part of the not too secret war chest by way of Galveston Island, the deposits being held until the Mexico situation could likewise be handled with diplomacy instead of conflict, a calculated political risk that actually ended up being quite accurate.


At first word that the Adams Onis Treaty was about to become a reality Monroe sent John Graham, a banker and once interim Secretary of war, “the go to man” as he was often referred, to Galveston Island on a, “Secret Mission.” I'm assuming that given the broad discretion the phrase maintained during the period that one could easily say that during his trip Graham was involved in a type of, Secret Service. Yes?


Shortly after the treaty is signed we have or first deposit. Shortly after the treaty is ratified we have our second deposit. Both of these deposits traveling from west to east. Contrary to popular belief possession alone has nothing to do with determining ownership.

 

[franklin]

Through 1819 - 1821 silver prices functioned on an exchange where it took roughly 15.50 ounces of silver to equal 1 ounce of gold, so silver was roughly worth $1.25 an ounce. Of course, it doesn't really matter how we figure it but my point is that the two alleged deposits will always figure to be considerably more the 3/4 of a million dollars, way over. The gold value of the second deposit alone was worth something like $540'000 at 19.39 a troy ounce, give or take a few bucks. The first gold deposit was worth roughly $286'000 by itself, so just with the two gold deposits alone we're already over $800'000 and we still have 5100 lbs of silver to sell.

2921 lbs of gold x 14.5833 x 19.39 = $825'971.71
5100 of silver x 14.5833 = 74'374.83 oz silver x $1.25 = $92'968.53
Grand value + $13'000 in jewels = $931'940.24

So my point is.....how did the author figure his math? Or perhaps, when?

What is 14.5833? I always thought it was either 16 ounces to a pound or either Troy Ounces but I don't know what 14.5833 is? When I figured it up and came up with about what the author had I used Troy Ounces and came up with about $750,000. In 1885 gold was worth almost two times as much as it was in 1822. Even though the prices of gold had not gone up that much but the economy was where you could purchase more for a dollar than you could in 1822. While today we can purchase a whole lot less out of a dollar. In 1822 a dollar was worth $2,500. In 1885 the dollar could purchase over $3,704 while today the dollar buys less than 15 cents. All of this and the price of gold in 1885 has to be taken into consideration before you can come up with $750,000 like the author did. In 1822 the treasure would have been worth over one and one-half Billion Dollars of today's buying power in 1885 it would have been worth over $2 Billion Dollars. Today probably $60 Million Dollars and that is worth about fifteen cents on the dollar so it would be worth only about $9 Million Dollars in what it could purchase.

 

[ECS]

...
At first word that the Adams Onis Treaty was about to become a reality Monroe sent John Graham, a banker and once interim Secretary of war, “the go to man” as he was often referred, to Galveston Island on a, “Secret Mission.” I'm assuming that given the broad discretion the phrase maintained during the period that one could easily say that during his trip Graham was involved in a type of, Secret Service. Yes?

Shortly after the treaty is signed we have or first deposit. Shortly after the treaty is ratified we have our second deposit. Both of these deposits traveling from west to east. Contrary to popular belief possession alone has nothing to do with determining ownership.

Thank you for the history lesson, BUT, what has any of this have to do the Beale narrative story detailed in the alleged "letters" that form the basis of the Beale Papers?

 

[bigscoop]

Thank you for the history lesson, BUT, what has any of this have to do the Beale narrative story detailed in the alleged "letters" that form the basis of the Beale Papers?

You mean the bogus letters presented in the narration?

 

[bigscoop]

What is 14.5833?

One US pound (mass) is equivalent to 14.5833 troy ounces.

 

[bigscoop]

In the beginning, Monroe, and even Madison, had their sights set on, "all of Texas", Florida, and passage to the Pacific. In undertaking this hugely complicated and risky enterprise they were also aware that it could possibly result in war, a war they could not afford to lose. On top of this it was also recognized that these acquisitions had to be firmly in place before Mexico became involved, for several of the reasons I've already outlined in other post regarding Mexico. If war did come Florida was not the big concern as it was right down the coast and it could be easily accessed, supplied, etc. But the Texas region wasn't so easily accessed and supplied, etc. In fact, the bay at Galveston Island would have been vital in such a conflict, which is one of the reasons why Jackson was in favor of just going and taking it, and had it been left up to him he would have.

Wars cost money, and you do not engage in, or support certain activities that could bring that war about unless you can afford to do so. Since the beginning of man a staple strategy has been to gain control of the enemies resources and then to use those same resources against that enemy. This is exactly what was happening at Galveston Island and the Spanish knew it, even launched complaint against these alleged activities at Galveston Island. So let me ask you, of these accumulated Spanish prizes that included gold and silver and jewels, etc., what do you suppose happen to them after the threat of war was over? Forget the Laffite Memoirs as there exist others sources, such as those previously mentioned Spanish allegations, that prizes were being taken from Spain through the activities at Galveston Island so there is no doubt that noticeable property/wealth was acquired. So, once the threat was over, who did it all belong to? Who go to keep it? Where did it all go?


And this brings us right back to that chronological order of the dates of deposit and the signing and ratification of the Adams Onis Treaty, and also the ten-year term which eventually realizes that critically vital Treaty of Limits in 1828. So what I am proposing to you is that the deposits were actually part of the not too secret war chest by way of Galveston Island, the deposits being held until the Mexico situation could likewise be handled with diplomacy instead of conflict, a calculated political risk that actually ended up being quite accurate.


At first word that the Adams Onis Treaty was about to become a reality Monroe sent John Graham, a banker and once interim Secretary of war, “the go to man” as he was often referred, to Galveston Island on a, “Secret Mission.” I'm assuming that given the broad discretion the phrase maintained during the period that one could easily say that during his trip Graham was involved in a type of, Secret Service. Yes?


Shortly after the treaty is signed we have or first deposit. Shortly after the treaty is ratified we have our second deposit. Both of these deposits traveling from west to east. Contrary to popular belief possession alone has nothing to do with determining ownership.

Another thing to be considered, that I failed to mention, is that the Beale narration is all about "the transferring of currency" and who was typically involved in issues of questionable sources/transfers of currency at the government level?

 

[ECS]

Currency?
The Beale Papers only states gold, silver, and jewels.
Explain.

 

[ECS]

...
We know his grandfather was Aide de Camp to Jackson during the Battle of New Orleans, and James Beverly Risqué was one of many who held a Lynchburg banquet for Jackson in 1815, was Risqué with Jackson in Florida during this invasion that forced the Adams-Onis Treaty?
We know that Risqué requested a position in the Florida territory that he never received...

Davy Crockett was also in Florida with Jackson during his 1814 Florida Campaign, acting as a hunter and food forager, serving under Capt John Cowan.
Did James Beverly Risqué know Davy Crockett?

 

[bigscoop]

Currency?
The Beale Papers only states gold, silver, and jewels.
Explain.

Gold and silver is what supports/backs, "currency".....it is the currency of choice, pretty much always has been, but you should already know all of this, as I'm sure you do.

 

[bigscoop]

..... so what is the connection to Ward and his published 1885 Beale Papers pamphlet and the Adams-Onis treaty?

I fully understand your position, that the dates of deposit in the pamphlet could just as easily been selected simply for the reasons that they add more mystery to the fictional narration because they do lead the reader on the very "Adams Onis Treaty" wild goose chase that I'm pursuing, this only being further supported because I haven't yet been able to provide any direct connection to the narration. Is this correct?