Misc data and adventures of a Tayopa treasure hunter

[Real of Tayopa]

Crow, I have a question for you. I have the title/ concession of Tayopa, but not the depository. I didn't know of it then. Should I get it when the present Pres leaves office. He is definitely leftist.( Mexico) Under International law would I have any rights? The depository holds maps, documents, statues, artifacts and of course many dore' bars of silver / gold. It was the main supplier of Victorio Peak and the Caballo mtn depositories for shipments to Rome. Under International law what right would I have regarding the artifacts and statues etc.?

 

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[tintin_treasure]

Of course I cannot imagine finding a buyer for a solid silver halo?

View attachment 1851075

Or a silver procession 18th century helmet

View attachment 1851076

All of these items and many more can become from what first seems a treasure and in some respects they are, become a noose around you neck. Some treasures amigos are well better left alone.

Crow

Thanks Crow...yes it is quite sad that many antiquities have been melted down because of such poor policies,,but mind you some artifacts are not made of precious metals and melting them does not profit like many bronze statues, marble pieces , ceramic pieces etc ,,nonetheless due to their historical and artistic importance they could fetch hundreds of thousands and sometimes even millions in big auction houses ..however if they have a shaky (or shady) provenance (or no provenance like in the case of roman greek or viking era artifacts that one may find washed away on the beach), selling them in bigger auction houses for grand money could be problematic. Hence folks would be forced to turn to unscrupulous dealers who in turn would flog them to private collectors secretly .. in this case the dealer gets the bigger piece of the pie than the original sellers ...sometimes such pieces also may appear in smaller low time auction houses in small towns (away from the radar) with mis-classified and downgraded attribution and would be sold with a modest price...it is quite a murky and complicated business with many faces...but the way forward is to have well designed policies that have provisions and ways to fully reward genuine citizens who stumble upon such valuable pieces while at the same time tightens the rope on the trading of stolen pieces...treasure laws in the UK are quite good in many respects as you mentioned and it could be a starting point for more wider policies that could cover many scenarios....

TT

 

[Simon1]

Crow, recognize this? Crow produced this masterpiece. a man of many talents, besides sleeping on the main thorofare in Paupau, New Guinea It's the book dust jacket of the story of Tayopa Oops it didn't post.

Last edited by Real of Tayopa; Today at 01:22 PM.
==================================

Please allow me Senor Don Jose:

Covers as designed by the world renowned " Crow " ​

 

[Crow]

Crow, I have a question for you. I have the title/ concession of Tayopa, but not the depository. I didn't know of it then. Should I get it when the present Pres leaves office. He is definitely leftist.( Mexico) Under International law would I have any rights? The depository holds maps, documents, statues, artifacts and of course many dore' bars of silver / gold. It was the main supplier of Victorio Peak and the Caballo mtn depositories for shipments to Rome. Under International law what right would I have regarding the artifacts and statues etc.?

Gidday Dom Amigo.

Your title/ concession of Tayopa is technically a mining concession for raw materials only.If there is no legal owner of the land technically everything on the property belongs to the state, the government. However any depository holds maps, documents, statues, artifacts and of course many dore' bars of silver / gold. Catholic Statues and artifacts would belong to the church. So church and State would claim national cultural patrimony over any such find. As Mexico has a long history of appropriating such treasures as national patrimony its unlikely that status quo will change regardless of a left wing or right wing government in power. So in effect treasure trove laws in Mexico do not work in favor of the finder.

As for the international law is another blanket law to restrict the trade in antiquities. UNESCO was an international agreement in protecting artifacts from being commercially traded on the grounds of historic and cultural significance. However all artifacts of been in private collection before 1973 with proven Provence is exempted. So amigo you cannot legally own the artifacts and cannot sell them so in effect once again they are property of the state. Mexico being a signed on to the UNESCO protocol cannot legally do a deal with any finder.

Because of the above protocol that has created a black market economy for such items. The problem now it not so much treasure hunters are not the problem. Demand for such historical artifacts have enthused rural poor in Mexico form some times armed gangs to rob the 17000 churches in Mexico for historic artifacts.

Why the increase in robberies? Mexican colonial art is in vogue, experts say. Never mind if the objects are worn, rustic, and in need of repair. "It's a change in market tastes," says Robert Brown, an art history professor at UCLA. "It's not just pre-Hispanic artifacts anymore. The folkish art found in these rural churches is now considered worth collecting. Maybe because all the great stuff is gone."


Most of the art heads either to ritzy Mexican homes or is smuggled abroad to auction houses and private collections.
Art thieves mainly work at night and, increasingly, are armed. They tend to target baroque sculptures, according to INAH. Paintings dating from the 16th to the 18th centuries are next, followed by chalices, urns, and other objects churned out in enormous quantities when Spain's conquistadores commissioned Mexican craftsmen to produce art.

So sadly although every country has complex issues intertwined with their treasure trove laws and respective international agreement.

So amigo for you its all about the mining concession where your money ticket is.

Crow

 

[Crow]

Thanks Crow...yes it is quite sad that many antiquities have been melted down because of such poor policies,,but mind you some artifacts are not made of precious metals and melting them does not profit like many bronze statues, marble pieces , ceramic pieces etc ,,nonetheless due to their historical and artistic importance they could fetch hundreds of thousands and sometimes even millions in big auction houses ..however if they have a shaky (or shady) provenance (or no provenance like in the case of roman greek or viking era artifacts that one may find washed away on the beach), selling them in bigger auction houses for grand money could be problematic. Hence folks would be forced to turn to unscrupulous dealers who in turn would flog them to private collectors secretly .. in this case the dealer gets the bigger piece of the pie than the original sellers ...sometimes such pieces also may appear in smaller low time auction houses in small towns (away from the radar) with mis-classified and downgraded attribution and would be sold with a modest price...it is quite a murky and complicated business with many faces...but the way forward is to have well designed policies that have provisions and ways to fully reward genuine citizens who stumble upon such valuable pieces while at the same time tightens the rope on the trading of stolen pieces...treasure laws in the UK are quite good in many respects as you mentioned and it could be a starting point for more wider policies that could cover many scenarios....

TT

Well personally I have no issue with Cultural patrimony of art and objects. But when archeologist start screaming cultural patrimony over coins and gold and silver bullion I say BS. There is no cultural patrimony over such items as they was made to be traded. This is where governments overstep the definition of cultural patrimony and step into out right greed.

Crow.

 

[Simon1]

Don Jose, at one time I thought you felt the maps and documents had more value, ( to you at least ), than the actual gold, silver, and jewels ?

 

[Crow]

Don Jose, at one time I thought you felt the maps and documents had more value, ( to you at least ), than the actual gold, silver, and jewels ?

Gidday Simon

I cannot speak for Don Amigo yet I can see how priceless such maps and documents are. They are justification the proverbial mount Everest to either support or to dismiss ones hypothesis, the defining point after many years of hard work, sacrifice and research.

How can one put a price of knowing you have uncovered the full story, the pinnacle of the long journey?

I know that emotion well I have been on both sides of the defining judgement. Some times wrong, some time right and even somewhere in between. That is the thrill of the chase amigos.

A treasure indeed worth far more than gold and jewels.

Crow

 

[Simon1]

A very good answer Crow.

I think Senor Don Jose was feeling that very same thing.

I would go with the maps and documents.

 

[tintin_treasure]

I forgot the title of the book that I read some years back on the subject but it gives a good picture of the whole thing..,,one story I read got imprinted in my mind,,,the author was in Brussels to attend a conference in how to prevent the illegal trading of antiques etc and got into a conversation with another attendant who was making some remarks..,to make his points , the person took the author to down town Brussels in the antique dealers area and they entered one shop posing as customers and started a conversation...the dealer not knowing went into telling them how the business works and how he gets his genuine Chinese items,,,he told them how artifacts are dug up in secret in China in some historical sites and his suppliers ship them to him via a shipping company ,,the shipping company sends a ship with the artifacts in the cargo until off the coast of Antwerp away from the actual port or harbour probably on international waters... the antique dealer then goes to the ship at night in his boat and unloads the cargo,,,he told them boastfully that sometimes depending on the situation he at times flies to China and to a remote site where the illegal archaeology dig is happening and he along other fellow dealers stand around and make a bid for the items that come out fresh from the ground ,,,
This shows you how bold and daring the business sometimes could go,,,but mind you I really find it hard to believe that such things are happening without the knowledge and to some level of complicity of the local authorities ,,,hence it would be hypocritical when governments like China and many other Asian,African and Latin American countries (and even in Europe like Italy and Greek )cry out that their artifacts are being stolen while all along their own local officials facilitate the whole operation,,,these governments are not that hard on the actual crooks and operations but when it comes to a simple genuine citizen that has come to find a treasure by chance or by some search and reports it expecting some reward, they bring all kinds of treasure and archaeology laws to deprive him of his treasure...

TT

 

[coazon de oro]

Howdy Crow,

There are buried treasures here in the U.S. that were plundered from Mexico. Some are gold, or silver bars, and some are church artifacts. They pre-date all plunder laws, at least as I understand, since the first laws were passed during Honest Abe's time, or during the Civil War. UNESCO seems to have bypassed the date of enactment law, but former artifact laws did not apply to artifacts found on private land, did UNESCO bypass this also?

Homar

 

[Simon1]

So Homar, you found such a cache on your ranch ?

I see you have melted some of it down to make it harder to trace

 

[tintin_treasure]

So Homar, you found such a cache on your ranch ?

I see you have melted some of it down to make it harder to trace

View attachment 1851334

The stolen Blenheim Palace gold toilet art piece (by conceptual artist Maurizio Cattelan) was estimated to be 6 mil dollar,,,Strange thing is, it was stolen just shortly after the exhibition started.,,,theories abound,,,but in all likelihood it is melted down by now...

TT

 

[Crow]

Howdy Crow,

There are buried treasures here in the U.S. that were plundered from Mexico. Some are gold, or silver bars, and some are church artifacts. They pre-date all plunder laws, at least as I understand, since the first laws were passed during Honest Abe's time, or during the Civil War. UNESCO seems to have bypassed the date of enactment law, but former artifact laws did not apply to artifacts found on private land, did UNESCO bypass this also?

Homar

Gidday Homar

Another factor to consider many of the south western states was not states until much later after Abes time. For example For both New Mexico and Arizona, the road to statehood was protracted and contentious. However, after much effort, on January 6, 1912 New Mexico became the 47th state and on February 14, 1912 Arizona became the 48th state in the Union. So treasure trove laws regarding to artifact prior to that fell into a different category of the old law prior to occupation by the united states. Technically after the Spanish sold the land to the united state the land became in effect territories a wild west where laws was not in place. Since then America has become the legal inheritors of any Spanish treasure found in those regions.

The UNESCO agreement is very broad series of protocols and many of those protocols assignee many have not have fully signed up for. For example The United States and UK have never signed up for rules regarding no commercialization of shipwreck recovery. But other aspects of UNESCO they have such as the protection of world heritage status historical and natural.

Each country has there own laws and interpretation of the definition of treasure trove including designated age of the artifact deemed historic. Then to complicate things you can have state and feral law that overlaps. Where it gets very complex is in legal definitions.

For example when the saddle ridge hoard was found of coins from gold rush era, The finder was ALSO the landholder where the treasure was found. Being gold coins they are not considered cultural patrimony as they are in effect currency so the California state and federal government could not claim because of the law what is on your property is considered abandoned. While the Federal government claimed it was stolen from the mint failed simple because the dates of the coins varied. Ironic they got half in tax anyway.

However in regards former Spanish colonial relics found on government land becomes technically the property of the State and if it was was on private land technically its abandoned property now belonging to the new property owner. But to make things very complex as we all know of past decisions going the other way where the finder has be rewarded the find. And the treasure trove definitions of the artifact found and relative age is deem historic has been vague and often misleading.

Here is the problem say for example you find Spanish Church treasure that falls into the definition of cultural Patrimony on your property you may indeed be awarded under the state treasure trove laws ownership. But if the discovery was after 1973 then you cannot legally sell the objects. You can give or donate the object but cannot sell for profit. Unless you have Provence that it was in a collection before that date. That is the UNESCO protocol on historic artifacts. However Bullion and coins cannot deemed cultural patrimony because they are currency. The laws are very complex and very from state to state to country to country.

Crow

 

[tintin_treasure]

I found the book that I was referring to in an earlier post which I read some years back..it is entitled "Hot art : chasing thieves and detectives through the secret world of stolen art" by Joshua Knelman (2011) ..I recall it was quite an informative book written in a very lively manner full of intrigue and yarns,,quite a good read in a lock-down...I myself may read it a second time..

TT

 

[Crow]

I found the book that I was referring to in an earlier post which I read some years back..it is entitled "Hot art : chasing thieves and detectives through the secret world of stolen art" by Joshua Knelman (2011) ..I recall it was quite an informative book written in a very lively manner full of intrigue and yarns,,quite a good read in a lock-down...I myself may read it a second time..

TT

Hello TT quite an informative book.

Crow

 

[coazon de oro]

So Homar, you found such a cache on your ranch ?

I see you have melted some of it down to make it harder to trace

View attachment 1851334

Don Simon,

If it had been in my ranch, I would be reminiscing on a silver throne.

 

[coazon de oro]

Gidday Homar

Another factor to consider many of the south western states was not states until much later after Abes time. For example For both New Mexico and Arizona, the road to statehood was protracted and contentious. However, after much effort, on January 6, 1912 New Mexico became the 47th state and on February 14, 1912 Arizona became the 48th state in the Union. So treasure trove laws regarding to artifact prior to that fell into a different category of the old law prior to occupation by the united states. Technically after the Spanish sold the land to the united state the land became in effect territories a wild west where laws was not in place. Since then America has become the legal inheritors of any Spanish treasure found in those regions.

The UNESCO agreement is very broad series of protocols and many of those protocols assignee many have not have fully signed up for. For example The United States and UK have never signed up for rules regarding no commercialization of shipwreck recovery. But other aspects of UNESCO they have such as the protection of world heritage status historical and natural.

Each country has there own laws and interpretation of the definition of treasure trove including designated age of the artifact deemed historic. Then to complicate things you can have state and feral law that overlaps. Where it gets very complex is in legal definitions.

For example when the saddle ridge hoard was found of coins from gold rush era, The finder was ALSO the landholder where the treasure was found. Being gold coins they are not considered cultural patrimony as they are in effect currency so the California state and federal government could not claim because of the law what is on your property is considered abandoned. While the Federal government claimed it was stolen from the mint failed simple because the dates of the coins varied. Ironic they got half in tax anyway.

However in regards former Spanish colonial relics found on government land becomes technically the property of the State and if it was was on private land technically its abandoned property now belonging to the new property owner. But to make things very complex as we all know of past decisions going the other way where the finder has be rewarded the find. And the treasure trove definitions of the artifact found and relative age is deem historic has been vague and often misleading.

Here is the problem say for example you find Spanish Church treasure that falls into the definition of cultural Patrimony on your property you may indeed be awarded under the state treasure trove laws ownership. But if the discovery was after 1973 then you cannot legally sell the objects. You can give or donate the object but cannot sell for profit. Unless you have Provence that it was in a collection before that date. That is the UNESCO protocol on historic artifacts. However Bullion and coins cannot deemed cultural patrimony because they are currency. The laws are very complex and very from state to state to country to country.

Crow

Thanks Crow,

Hopefully such a cache is still exactly where it is said to be, as most real treasures are. I can only verify it once I get permission to do so, and get a signed agreement to split the spoils. In my only attempt to get permission years ago, it was denied only because the owner had the place leased out, and didn't feel comfortable about it. At that time I was ignorant about the laws, and unable to ease the owners mind about it. After that I have been looking into the legalities of several treasures on my list, and am confident that if I talk to the land owner again, we could reach an agreement. I was given a business card which left the door open.

Texas does not recognize Treasure Trove Law, so it is considered abandoned property, which goes to the finder. The Silver Bullion is my only interest. I had planned to return the church artifacts to my church. I could not take any sacred artifact of any church, and try to profit from it. Since that is now the law, it will be no problem now.

I am in no hurry, currently working on another legend, and putting up new fences to start a meat goat herd. Once the herd grows, I can buy my first metal detector, and get that permission.

Homar

 

[Simon1]

Hope you get your permission Homar

If you should suddenly vanish off the radar then we can assume one of two things:

#1. You found your needle in the haystack

or

#2. None of us want #2 to be the reason

 

[Crow]

It is one of biggest tasks is to convince the landowner for permission. So one has to see such proposals also through the eyes a of the land holder. It takes careful negotiation in convincing the landholder of your integrity. professionalism and of course the benefits of a partnership.

I say this as I always encourage a "partnership in the proposed project". And professionally lay out all the ground rules and provide a binding legal agreement that protects them as well as non disclosure agreement. One thing I have learned never push the landholder or rush a landholder to make a decision. They themselves have to come to the conclusion there could be great benefits from entering a partnership in a potential project. However as per traditional treasure trove laws always in general rule of thumb split 50/50. I always say its my intention to make you the landholder wealthy as well as I. As one cannot succeed without the other. Another carrot is the finder bares the expenses of search, excavation and remediation so for the landholder and absolving the landholder from all liability.

These key points. No cost to the landholder in excavation and remediation. No legal or financial liability. And fitly percent of what is recovered. For doing absolutely doing nothing and taking no risk.

Hell you have to stupid as a landholder not to consider a proposed project in that context.

One failing of treasure hunters they tend to get too greedy. Where in reality they will be getting a share. Some times you may need to grease the axial to make wheels of success to happen. By the time you get the project up and running the landholder in most cases become one of the most enthusiastic supporters of the project.

Here is example below....

50% to the landholder 50% to the finder. The finders share is split between other parties in the project. Some provide expertise others provide capital divide as per agreement among the party of finders.

On some very big projects some times you need to involve a team of lawyers. Generally they have a percentage of finders fee.

Some deals amigos will never ever see the light of day...



Why because as history of such discoveries there are aware people who will try to make a legal claim against any such find. So its better to be very discreet. The trio always highlight that discretion to potential business partners as well as financial advise for those involved in the project.

You can already see the fiasco with law suits the Forrest Fenns saga has created. Best to get you cut amigo discreetly then enjoy life.

Crow

 

[Real of Tayopa]

Crow. I came to to the conclusion that I was getting too old to continue to fight chief geologists who used google earth to dispute me, which was worthless, (I used WWII aerial maps, of Mexico, made by the US, to try to get them io it ) they dismissed me as a blow hard and a dreamer So I finally offered it to Mexico as part of their Patrimony. Mexico has never said anything officially, but they still carry me as the owner, despite their cancellation laws They should have canceled me long ago.for nonpayment of taxes.I have never told exactly where it is, and with Google Earth, while quite useful is worthless for locatingvTayopa. For those of you that wish to try here are the coordinates.