Metal Detectiing TN. cave / Anybody done this?

This is without a doubt the best thread/adventure/story I have ever gotten into. I would kill to live close enough to see this!
what I don't understand is why no one has chimed in on your mud mound symbols. These are indeed runes(on the right), belonging to one of the futhurks of the norse/Germanic alphabets. you can't translate these with any accuracy, its a dead language. there will be plenty of people willing to give you their perfect impression of this language that they have never heard or read correctly translated or spoken. there was no standardized spelling, it was all phoneticly implied, with several of the runes conveying a concept, idea, or word along with being a potential letter.

I am having some trouble finding the clear picture of the mud art, but from the crack to the right:
the run for H, pretty close to the modern. could stand for the letter, could also be implying limits, delays, risks...
the next one is fairly well worn, but could be an I rune or a L rune. I was ice, separation, privacy... L was the letter, and the symbol for water, dreams, etc
R is r. journey, a message, wheel...
after the R is the dead giveaway for me that it is futhark runes. you can barely see it in your pictures, but there is a straight vertical line wearing a little hat ^. this forms an arrow pointing upwards and is the t rune. named for their god of justice, Tyr, it works as a T and conveys warrior, sacrifice, courage, justice, etc.

H I/L R T- could be anything. if you take the meanings of the symbols, you can infer a story, but it could be wishful thinking.
Limits/delays/risk separation/water/ice journey/message warrior/sacrifice
a warrior journeyed here and couldn't get any farther in the cave.
someone spent the winter in this cave, and could go no deeper (water? cave in beyond?).

don't let this fool you, however. the Vikings WERE here before most others, and there are a couple of signs in Minnesota, I think, that they left behind. but, the runes have been around for almost 2000 years, and are loved as a "secret" language due to the vagaries of interpretation and writing them. someone could have easily put them there a hundred years ago because they liked them, and was a sweet place to put them.

thoughts:
how wet is the mud mound? could you make a rubbing?
how wide are the lines on the carvings?
sit/lay/stretch out at that mound with a candle or a torch and trace the lines with your finger/a stick, something similar.
observe everything around you with nothing modern while you do this, and put everything you see at that time in context of the person creating the mound carvings.

you can see the hole cave with lights and modern things, but the person who put that there had none of it. see the cave as the creator did and you may gain some perspective that you may have been missing the whole time. look on the ceiling directly above for torch marks and the top of the mound for wax or some other lightsource give away.
 

paxdruidia said:
This is without a doubt the best thread/adventure/story I have ever gotten into. I would kill to live close enough to see this!
what I don't understand is why no one has chimed in on your mud mound symbols. These are indeed runes(on the right), belonging to one of the futhurks of the norse/Germanic alphabets. you can't translate these with any accuracy, its a dead language. there will be plenty of people willing to give you their perfect impression of this language that they have never heard or read correctly translated or spoken. there was no standardized spelling, it was all phoneticly implied, with several of the runes conveying a concept, idea, or word along with being a potential letter.

I am having some trouble finding the clear picture of the mud art, but from the crack to the right:
the run for H, pretty close to the modern. could stand for the letter, could also be implying limits, delays, risks...
the next one is fairly well worn, but could be an I rune or a L rune. I was ice, separation, privacy... L was the letter, and the symbol for water, dreams, etc
R is r. journey, a message, wheel...
after the R is the dead giveaway for me that it is futhark runes. you can barely see it in your pictures, but there is a straight vertical line wearing a little hat ^. this forms an arrow pointing upwards and is the t rune. named for their god of justice, Tyr, it works as a T and conveys warrior, sacrifice, courage, justice, etc.

H I/L R T- could be anything. if you take the meanings of the symbols, you can infer a story, but it could be wishful thinking.
Limits/delays/risk separation/water/ice journey/message warrior/sacrifice
a warrior journeyed here and couldn't get any farther in the cave.
someone spent the winter in this cave, and could go no deeper (water? cave in beyond?).

don't let this fool you, however. the Vikings WERE here before most others, and there are a couple of signs in Minnesota, I think, that they left behind. but, the runes have been around for almost 2000 years, and are loved as a "secret" language due to the vagaries of interpretation and writing them. someone could have easily put them there a hundred years ago because they liked them, and was a sweet place to put them.

thoughts:
how wet is the mud mound? could you make a rubbing?
how wide are the lines on the carvings?
sit/lay/stretch out at that mound with a candle or a torch and trace the lines with your finger/a stick, something similar.
observe everything around you with nothing modern while you do this, and put everything you see at that time in context of the person creating the mound carvings.

you can see the hole cave with lights and modern things, but the person who put that there had none of it. see the cave as the creator did and you may gain some perspective that you may have been missing the whole time. look on the ceiling directly above for torch marks and the top of the mound for wax or some other lightsource give away.
Click to expand...

Thank you for your interest... my name is Brad.

1. "how wet is the mud mound?" First EVERYTHING is damp/wet. Closer to the front of this cave the wetter. But this etched mound is located just after all natural light is gone. A constant water stream is always present. I found this etched mound in 94' and it has not changed (visually) to this day.

2. "could you make a rubbing?" Not a chance

3. "how wide are the lines on the carvings?" Small stick or stone corner....? I haven't measured them at all.

There are several "pits" upon the ceiling where I think a torch lighting source was utilized long ago. And huge evidence of a fire at the entrance within the cave at one time. Sleeping quarters are quite evident from the entrance to about 35-40 yds. deep before the first bend.

This symbols / "letters" upon the mound have always intrigued me the most. There was much more there at one time before I found it... but the past symbols are fading with time. I've always wondered what the small one on the lower left side of mound "means". It has a black dot middle with 4 spiral "legs" coming outward. Each with the same endings....? I'm still wondering not only what the "letters" on the right side mean but what the hell does the large wavy symbol on the right mean? The small symbol I mentioned is on the lower left side of this large wavy symbol.

I'd love to take a PRO into the cave and get some professional photo's under all different kind of lighting and see what "we see".

paxdruidia... You bring up GREAT thoughts and questions. First of all how or why... were these mud mounds made in the first place before they were etched upon? And what about the squared up one WAY BACK INTO THE CAVE? You can barely reach it.... but there it IS!!!! All squared up with a tunnel behind it.

PM... if you'd like to get email / phone # and we'll talk. But T-net is great also because others might get involved and have something to add.... Thank you, Brad
 

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Brad: is there clay in the cave or area?
Pottery production possible if clay and tempering materials were convenient.
Here's some Tenn. cave stuff. The religious type use of caves is interesting..
A tepee out west sometimes had an "alter" in it's designated area, a small mound of dirt was enough. Maybe a bench served a similar purpose?


"People were not living there or hunting there," Simek said. "The cave served as a religious sanctuary, a place where priests would periodically go to worship on behalf of their people."

Simek said the newly-gated cave is an example of early Southeastern cave art and doesn't include images of warfare commonly found at later sites.

"The religious leaders had a task to fulfill to their communities," Simek said. "Their ceremonial cycles required entry into the underworld."
Gate now protects prehistoric Indian carvings in Tennessee cave - News Sentinel Story
 

First, like everyone else late to this party, I'm going to have to voice my safety concerns. And just who do you think you are, why haven't you contacted the PROFESSIONALS? :dontknow:

Second, the first block has an H, roughly a 2 letter gap, an L, a one letter gap, and an R. I don't know how everyone has missed this, but OBVIOUSLY you have found HITLER's grave. Congrats.

Ok, now that I got all that sarcasm out of my system... I'm mad at you Brad. First because I am SUPER jealous os your adventure, and wishing I was closer to possibly help out, and second because I just stayed up for 3 hours reading this thread from the beginning!

Sadly I don't have much to add the "tree" and letters/runes are what I would focus on with the first block. There are a TON of other marks that may or may not be man made, but those ones CLEARLY are. If I were running the show (which I'm not), I would have 3 goals. 1) do some sifting, knowing that finding some NA artifacts will brighten your day. 2) if possible, experiment with possible casting options for the etchings. Assuming the mounds are made of the same mud as what is in the rest of the cave, make your own mounds, draw a pretty picture, and see what you can get to stick to it. 3) experiment with torches and the ceiling. You mentioned it does not seem like a "solid" roof, and have noted some odd markings on the roof inside. I'm thinking that since the roof is loose, someone holding a torch near the roof causes thermal expansion, and then when they leave, the sand/dirt/pebble roof cools, contracts and falls to the ground, leaving a dimple in the roof. That would also explain why there aren't scorch/soot marks on the roof - those areas fell to the ground. I'm thinking you take a tiki torch type thing, set it up near the entrance, let it burn to 5-10 minutes and see what the roof does.

Finally, I'm going to agree with your skepticism on the saltpeter idea, not only due to crowded workings space, but also the fact that metal detecting turned up nothing. If there was an active mining operation, even a small one, I would expect to find SOME metallic evidence - broken tools, nails, screws, SOMETHING. On that note - I'm pretty new to detecting, but I'm pretty sure this is a "less is more" situation. If you are still looking to detect more in the cave, I think something like a Bounty Hunter Tracker IV might be what you want - just turn it on and dig every beep. Plus, if you would really like to put a nail in the "saltpeter" coffin, you could test the soil in the cave. I don't know how you'd do that, but my understanding is that saltpeter caves get regenerated after a few years, so if there aren't high levels of nitrites in the cave now, there probably weren't in the past either.

Last (ok, I know I said finally, but leave me alone, ideas keep coming to me), when weather or schedules don't permit, it might be worth some library time. Being optimistic, I'd start with any "Treasure Legends" and work my way down to "Local History". Plus if you are able to get in contact with any previous owners, you never know what they might be able to tell you.
 

AugustMoose87 said:
First, like everyone else late to this party, I'm going to have to voice my safety concerns. And just who do you think you are, why haven't you contacted the PROFESSIONALS? :dontknow:

Second, the first block has an H, roughly a 2 letter gap, an L, a one letter gap, and an R. I don't know how everyone has missed this, but OBVIOUSLY you have found HITLER's grave. Congrats.

Ok, now that I got all that sarcasm out of my system... I'm mad at you Brad. First because I am SUPER jealous os your adventure, and wishing I was closer to possibly help out, and second because I just stayed up for 3 hours reading this thread from the beginning!

Sadly I don't have much to add the "tree" and letters/runes are what I would focus on with the first block. There are a TON of other marks that may or may not be man made, but those ones CLEARLY are. If I were running the show (which I'm not), I would have 3 goals. 1) do some sifting, knowing that finding some NA artifacts will brighten your day. 2) if possible, experiment with possible casting options for the etchings. Assuming the mounds are made of the same mud as what is in the rest of the cave, make your own mounds, draw a pretty picture, and see what you can get to stick to it. 3) experiment with torches and the ceiling. You mentioned it does not seem like a "solid" roof, and have noted some odd markings on the roof inside. I'm thinking that since the roof is loose, someone holding a torch near the roof causes thermal expansion, and then when they leave, the sand/dirt/pebble roof cools, contracts and falls to the ground, leaving a dimple in the roof. That would also explain why there aren't scorch/soot marks on the roof - those areas fell to the ground. I'm thinking you take a tiki torch type thing, set it up near the entrance, let it burn to 5-10 minutes and see what the roof does.

Finally, I'm going to agree with your skepticism on the saltpeter idea, not only due to crowded workings space, but also the fact that metal detecting turned up nothing. If there was an active mining operation, even a small one, I would expect to find SOME metallic evidence - broken tools, nails, screws, SOMETHING. On that note - I'm pretty new to detecting, but I'm pretty sure this is a "less is more" situation. If you are still looking to detect more in the cave, I think something like a Bounty Hunter Tracker IV might be what you want - just turn it on and dig every beep. Plus, if you would really like to put a nail in the "saltpeter" coffin, you could test the soil in the cave. I don't know how you'd do that, but my understanding is that saltpeter caves get regenerated after a few years, so if there aren't high levels of nitrites in the cave now, there probably weren't in the past either.

Last (ok, I know I said finally, but leave me alone, ideas keep coming to me), when weather or schedules don't permit, it might be worth some library time. Being optimistic, I'd start with any "Treasure Legends" and work my way down to "Local History". Plus if you are able to get in contact with any previous owners, you never know what they might be able to tell you.
Click to expand...

"And just who do you think you are, why haven't you contacted the PROFESSIONALS?" First of all I'm nobody important.... just a guy who found this opening, crawled in 1.5 hrs. deep, took some amateur pics and started to ask some questions here on T-net and other places. As far as PROFESSIONALS... who would that be buddy? I've contacted several University professors, cave professionals and a rune writing expert in G.B.

Now.... I have no idea if those letters/symbols are rune writing or just initials carved in the mound...? I don't believe initials because even if very old who the hell writes there initials in such a spaced out fashion? And that large "wavy"/"tree" symbol I've looked at area creeks, streams and ridges and can't make out a connection. And that small symbol (bottom left of wavy symbol) I think was inscribed into the mud originally with charcoal. I also believe there were a LOT more art/symbols inscribed upon the mound at one time also. This is where a pro could possibly "pull up" some of the symbols under the right lighting condition and lens. And there is NO CHANCE of touching this mound without furthering its destruction.

Sifting is the next thing I can do. But before I do this I'd like every inch photographed better than I can do. And like you... I'd like a seasoned pro in cave art, dating and caving to give me their opinion. Maybe there isn't any historical value present...? But I'd like to be told that first hand. I've used 3 different MD's around the mound and not so much as a peep. If this was a saltpeter vat at one time there ought to be some nails present at the least. And there are 2-3 other mounds you can see before this etched one and one after it high against the wall and ceiling. Not counting the couple WAY BACK! I'd love to know what's behind the one way back. But I'd have to destroy it to find out. Getting an MD back their now would be next to impossible.

I really though after the caving group in Nashville told me this is an undocumented / unexplored cave that maybe someone would want to explore and map.... nope. I also know the road way above this cave winding through the woods toward the Duck River was used in early 1800's. Finding old horseshoes is a dime a dozen.

True story here... I moved here in 94' and accidently found cave. In 95' and old man (85-90 y/o) was driven to my home by another. He asked if I'd seen/found an old home way back on the two tract. I said yes. He said his father built it and he was born and raised in it. He stated him and his brother explored every square inch of this area for years. Now this old home (as the crow flies) is maybe 400-500 yds. from the cave. I asked him if they found any caves close by? He said nope... if there was one they would have found it..... wrong! I believe this cave was landslide shut and opened up over the decades. I also think there's another one just around the corner from this one slide shut now. It is hard to find.

Since you live so far away.... you'll have to stay mad or take a trip eastward buddy. Later, Brad
 

Letters in the mud are present in Cherokee from Sequoyah's efforts in the eighteen hundreds..
What I thought were trails or tributaries could be symbol for smoke.
Either prayers being carried by it, or a reference to the smokies?
The Winter Count
 

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releventchair said:
Brad: is there clay in the cave or area?
Pottery production possible if clay and tempering materials were convenient.
Here's some Tenn. cave stuff. The religious type use of caves is interesting..
A tepee out west sometimes had an "alter" in it's designated area, a small mound of dirt was enough. Maybe a bench served a similar purpose?


"People were not living there or hunting there," Simek said. "The cave served as a religious sanctuary, a place where priests would periodically go to worship on behalf of their people."

Simek said the newly-gated cave is an example of early Southeastern cave art and doesn't include images of warfare commonly found at later sites.

"The religious leaders had a task to fulfill to their communities," Simek said. "Their ceremonial cycles required entry into the underworld."
Gate now protects prehistoric Indian carvings in Tennessee cave - News Sentinel Story
Click to expand...

Hey Buddy.... I don't believe it's clay or we have clay around. Thanks for the link and info. I've contacted Simek and he suggested the mounds were sediment mounds from saltpeter mining and very well preserved in fact. But he wasn't interested in seeing in person. I'm not buying the saltpeter idea. Just not enough room and not one nail found from the rotted wood framing. And I KNOW nobody would mine saltpeter under the conditions I had to go through to find the other mounds WAY BACK. But with that said.... they are present!
 

I will pm you in the morning. My internet time comes from work, otherwise I'm typing on the phone... ugh

I have been thinking about those dang runes all weekend, lol. Think I may have a couple of theories.
 

paxdruidia said:
I will pm you in the morning. My internet time comes from work, otherwise I'm typing on the phone... ugh

I have been thinking about those dang runes all weekend, lol. Think I may have a couple of theories.
Click to expand...

Maybe there ruins... maybe not. I'm not saying they are. A member here on T-net PM'd me and brought it up. So when I looked at rune writing the "letters"/"symbols" looked like rune's. Especially when there tilted like the writings. Somebody really wanted to leave a message to crawl past light, crawl up the bank, lie on their stomach and doodle upon this mound. I never have found the small symbol on left side anywhere else either... Brad
 

you said you metal detected the area inside the entrance right? around where the campfire evidence is? going to keep my statements generic as to locales... lurkers
been doing some heavy research, and there was a substantial amount of guerilla warfare all thru the state in the civil war, finding something metal from that time isn't hard. find something that dates your fire, much better. the problem so far seems to be "when". narrow down the when, and you can start figuring out the who.

being hard to find, and fairly recently unblocked with your local old-timer knowing nothing about it, you can safely assume that the last century had no history inside this cave...
now, civil war and 1800s mining activity is heavy all thru the state, could be something there.
Shawnee, Cherokee, heavy NA presence all over. unfortunately, when the white man came, we didn't care at all about the history. nothing written down or learned, super hard to do anything without finding an artifact to date with.

more thoughts to think about maybe having seen, missed, or not realized what you had seen:
chisel marks or evidence of work being done on the walls/ceiling/etc?
rust colored splotches on the floor with nothing to account for them?
what about the debris at the entrance from the landslide? MD that?
 

paxdruidia said:
you said you metal detected the area inside the entrance right? around where the campfire evidence is? going to keep my statements generic as to locales... lurkers
been doing some heavy research, and there was a substantial amount of guerilla warfare all thru the state in the civil war, finding something metal from that time isn't hard. find something that dates your fire, much better. the problem so far seems to be "when". narrow down the when, and you can start figuring out the who.

being hard to find, and fairly recently unblocked with your local old-timer knowing nothing about it, you can safely assume that the last century had no history inside this cave...
now, civil war and 1800s mining activity is heavy all thru the state, could be something there.
Shawnee, Cherokee, heavy NA presence all over. unfortunately, when the white man came, we didn't care at all about the history. nothing written down or learned, super hard to do anything without finding an artifact to date with.

more thoughts to think about maybe having seen, missed, or not realized what you had seen:
chisel marks or evidence of work being done on the walls/ceiling/etc?
rust colored splotches on the floor with nothing to account for them?
what about the debris at the entrance from the landslide? MD that?
Click to expand...

1st off... when I first found this cave a good water flow was flowing out of it down the ridge (75 yds.) to bottom. From the cave entrance the water flowed over the rock surface downward toward the bottom of the ridge. Within that stretch of flow was a basin carved within the rock (like a sink). It was VERY obvious. It was about 20-30 ft. from the entrance. During the floods here in 2010 another landslide happened and covered up a lot of the first 25 yds. in front of the cave. Mother nature has not yet removed it but she's working on it. This cave is very well "hidden" naturally. So with that said there is "nothing" to MD since the new landslide since the floods of 2010. Outside of the recent slide this was a PERFECT place in which to dwell. Fresh clean water, large enough opening to easily dwell and sleeping quarters easily out of the water. As I've said before.... evidence of large fires at the entrence is present in the ceiling.

1. No chisel marks present anywhere
2. Outside of the water stream the entire "floor" is dirt/soft mud.
 

paxdruidia said:
Sift! Everyone leaves something behind.
Click to expand...

Yea... OK. Maybe during your next week vacation (coming up... right?) you can head south to TN. We'll go out to woodshop, build a large shifter and small one also. Then we'll stand around looking at each other on how we're going to get it back there. It won't be easy buddy. If you happened to be married w/kids maybe try and sell them on this family vacation idea. Good luck. (But it would be fun... right?)
 

Well, I have looked at the pictures. You should hold the flashlight at almost 90 degrees to the writting to display a shadow. You could also use a white sheet of paper and place it over the writing then rub black charcoal over it to make a rubbing. I have put one picture in 'elements' and changed the contrast to secure some variation and I definately see writting. (circled). Looks like an (N) & (R) with an (L) between them. Frank
cave writting.jpg
 

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Frankn said:
Well, I have looked at the pictures. You should hold the flashlight at almost 90 degrees to the writting to display a shadow. You could also use a white sheet of paper and place it over the writing then rub black charcoal over it to make a rubbing. I have put one picture in 'elements' and changed the contrast to secure some variation and I definately see writting. (circled). Looks like an (N) & (R) with an (L) between them. Frank
View attachment 1192760
Click to expand...

Frankn.... It is impossible to place a piece of anything over this mound and rub anything upon it to gather an image. This mound is fragile and fading. I believe there were MUCH more images upon it at one time. Because the other mounds don't have the obvious inscriptions upon it.
 

From Ohio, I would love to go to Tennessee and hunt for Civil war relics. My Cousin lives in a smaller town outside Nashville. They said come on down. I'm getting the itch to go.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

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