(?) MD ing in the Pa. game lands

[jeff of pa]

Re: (?) Riding in the Pa. game lands

I was watching the TV yesterday and on the channel that brings us the state govt. in action etc there was an inter view with the "Executive Director of the Game Commission. Carl Roe. Of course the interview was about deer hunting and such and no question was raised about use of game lands for other than hunting..And we have not received a response yet in response to my Rep.'s request for the info I had asked....I am not holding my breath. I think I will write this guy a letter and see what happens.............God help me I hear the black helicopters coming..........oh sorry it was Medevac going over!

A couple months ago there was a Program on
State Game lands.

Rich in Central PA called in and asked.

& if I remember right,

he Quoted the "Nothing can Be Removed" rule
and said Therefore Metal detecting would not be allowed.

 

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[bjw]

let's see...does that mean the deer have to remain where they lie after being shot? I guess not.
Greywolfe watch out for those Medevac choppers they may not be what they seem.
BJW

 

[jeff of pa]

I think the Exact Phrase includes "Without Permit"

 

[jeff of pa]

greywolf Received this letter after contacting his state Rep

MR. Keith McCall
Majority Whip
House of Representatives
p.o. Box xxxx
Harrisburg, PA 17120​

Re:Mr D___ R____

I have received your letter dated October 3, 2007 advising us of your Constituent's
concerns.

Your question; "is Mr R____ allowed to use a metal detector on State Game Land ?"
the answer is yes, however under title 58 135 2 661 (please note letter hard to read
Number may be wrong) unlawfull actions "remove or attempt to remove
any manmade or natural object except wildlife and fish lawfully taken. objects which
may not be removed include animals, rocks, minerals, sand and historical or archaeological artifacts.

Legally an individual could possess and operate, however he could not
dig for(cant Read) remove or take anything metallic that he found.​

Original

 

[greywolf]

Sorry letter did not reproduce well. In a nut shell!
Q: Can Mr.R use a MD on Game Lands. A: yes, however under title 58 235.2(6) Unlawful actions "remove or attempt to remove any man made or natural object except wildlife and fish lawfully taken. Objects which may not be removed include animals,rocks,minerals,sand and historical or archaeological artifacts.
Legally an individual could possess and operate a metal detector; however he could not did for or remove or take anything metallic that he found.

That is the info as received from Carl G. Roe Ex. DIR. of Pa. game comm. So do not get caught they will take away your detector,treasures and make your life miserable.

Why would I want SAND? hmmmmm(black sand may have GOLD dust in it) in PA

 

[BobinSouthVA]

Ah crap I guess that kills the trip back to PA in January to check the foundation my sis found on the state game lands while hunting. Guess I better remind her to clean her boots off well before leaving the land or she may get arrested.

Workaround: Cram all your finds into a salt lick, Wait for unexpecting deer to eat it all up. Blammo.

Just don't aim for the stomach.

 

[Rubicon]

Interestingly, you can cut and take firewood from state game lands. (not live trees)

 

[greywolf]

Yes you can cut and take dead or down wood but you need a PERMIT and they give you a location and a lot number. At least that is the way it worked when I had a wood stove when I lived in Williamsport.

 

[Tubecity]

Workaround: Cram all your finds into a salt lick, Wait for unexpecting deer to eat it

We're not allowed to do that either. If you're caught hunting over
bait or a saltlick you will be fined for baiting, which will cost you
money in fines, the deer will be taken to supposedly be given to
the under-privelaged. They may also confiscate your rifle & impound
your vehicle. We're still allowed to breathe their air but I'm not sure
if we are allowed to drink from a mountain spring.

 

[raptor]

AHHHHHHHHHHHH Penns Woods at its finist. The smells of fresh air and serinity. Alas its been spoiled like most everything else by ignorance,corruptness, politics,and greed in Harrisburg.But to this I say onward shall go I.Wonder if our Game Commision Deputys are trained in the art of concealment

 

[deepskyal]

You can breathe and drink the mountain water...but you gotta put it back for the enjoyment of future generations. Exhale before you cross out of state game lands so you're returning the air.
Al

 

[greentreasurefish]

Hello, I am new to this site and love it, but I am a truck driver by trade. I do not know if you guys kept track of the Mexican border trucking issue a few months ago but they drivers in this industry all started calling their State Reps and Congressmen and we have had a big change in what they are allowing. Could we all band together as MD er's and start calling our congressmen. Might be worth a try! One call will not do it. A call a day will do.

 

[jeff of pa]

As I posted Earlier

PA State Game lands are Not State Property.

Funded primarily by hunting and furtaker license sales; State Game Lands timber, mineral and oil/gas revenues; and a federal excise tax on sporting arms and ammunition; the Commission is almost entirely supported by hunters and trappers, or assets that have been procured with license dollars. The Commission does not receive state General Fund appropriations. More than half its annual revenue comes from license sales, a relatively fixed income source. License fees cannot be increased without approval of the General Assembly, and fee increases have historically come only about every 10 years.

http://www.pgc.state.pa.us/pgc/cwp/view.asp?a=481&q=151287&pgcNav=|

So
they do Not have to listin to the State.
All they need do is say Start sending us State Tax $$$$
if you want to tell us what to allow.

 

[greentreasurefish]

You misunderstand what I posted. We contacted our Reps. for the House and Congress. They do receive Federal monies and grants from the federal government. Also, by law any organization that receives monies for services and does not answer to state tax laws will answer to federal. I may be wrong, but setting on your duff saying "oh no, i cannot do anything" will not accomplish anything. I am sorry if what I say offends those who say different but I know setting and doing nothing will accomplish nothing! If you keep doing the same thing and expect a different answer each time nothing will change. As for me, I would rather call and voice my opinion. I have seen it work. The trouble with the Commonwealth is that people are not questioning them on there actions.

 

[deepskyal]

Fee? Taxes is more appropriate a term for purchasing a license. In one section of the rules they call hunting a right...but you must purchase a permit to support the commission that maintains the lands and wildlife.

The "commission" purchases land solely for wildlife management, not historical preservation!
It's an abuse of power to say to anyone, especially when it is funded solely by public monies, either federal monies from taxes on the weapons people use, or by the voluntary payment of a license, no, you cannot metal detect here on our millions of acres. This doesn't include donations to the commission in the form of land or money for the purpose of wildlife management.

I whole hearted agree wildlife management is necessary, but where does the rules begin to infringe of the general rights of people. If people stop buying permits, the commission ceases to exist. Or would it?

I used to fish Lake Erie, until the "temporary" "Erie Stamp" was issued. That was quite a few years ago, and it's still there. It was only suppose to be 3 years.

Fee is just a soft sided way of saying you're being taxed to do what is your right to do. It did not say privilege.

I'm thinking that the commission has overstepped it's bounds by saying no to detecting, but my experience fighting city hall, there isn't enough support collectively with the metal detectorist's in Pennsylvania to change it.

No matter how you look at it...it is PUBLIC money, not private funds, that support the commission. I believe that gives the public the RIGHT to have a say so in what goes on with their money.

The game commission does hold public forums on issues before they become law and to get the general public's input on major issues.
So...maybe we should ask for a review of the law, when was it enacted and what general public input was solicited before the law prohibiting detecting was enacted.

I'd be all for an annual permit to help maintain the game lands. A "Fee", like a hunting license, but for detecting, at a reasonable cost of maybe $10.00.

Anyone wanted to try to start something in the way of lobbying the commission, I had past lobbying experience with the PaPUC....it's not an easy road for minority groups without money for lawyers. But research and logic, experience in the field, persistance.....maybe something minor can be changed.

Oh, and an "IN" would help. Someone on the commission that would be pro-detecting. Now...find that someone and you got a chance.
Al

 

[Tubecity]

You're right about that 'stamp'. At least 15 years ago , you had to buy a 'trout stamp' supposedly to help offset the the losses by the commercial salmon fisherman when limits were imposed. That stamp was supposed to temporary.
Now you have to buy the 'trout stamp' plus the Lake Erie 'stamp' if you are fishing Erie or fishing for trout. As everything else in this money hungry state, both the Fish & the Game Commisions are now under control of the beauracrats & we now
have to buy both stamps. As a lot of others I quit fishing Erie & almost never buy
the trout stamp & they wonder why there has been a decrease in license sales.

 

[raptor]

deepskyal I for one would help to get metal detecting allowed on PA Game Land. What can I do to help. Come on all you Pennsylvanians let try and get something positive going here.

 

[bjw]

the trout stamp was introduced to offset the cost of repairing the existing hatcheries and to create new one. The fact is a good deal of the money was directed toward the lake fishing in order to maintain a viable commercial business. In return the trout fisherman in the streams and rivers received nothing. The size and number of the stocked trout never increased and some streams were taken off the stocking program reducing the number of trout that were actually being stocked with the excuse given that there was an established native trout population or the water was no longer viable for for trout. Like many I supported the stamp when it was first introduced and continued to do so until such time when it became apparent that the money was being appropriated for other purposes. At that time I refused to buy the trout stamp any longer.
BJW

 

[deepskyal]

"You can petition the Lord with prayer" (Doors)

The way I see it raptor, or anyone else for that matter...I think we'd need to discover what procedure would be needed and the Game Commissions requirements for a review of a law, or what we would need to have a current law amended.

Lobbying the PUC involved getting on their agenda when THEY had a meeting. There was usually a small delegation, maybe 2 or 3 individuals, speaking on behalf of an entire organization.

Does Pennsylvania have a metal detector organization that acts as an umbrella to the clubs...something that could be a universal voice to all of us?

I haven't belonged to any clubs in years when a couple guys, along with myself formed the "North Pittsburgh Past Finder's".

Meetings were somewhat regular but attendance was spotty. And I guess now, the group is gone. I know there are other clubs around...but how well attended are they? Is there capacity and attendance to make some kind of membership impact to the state without it looking like a few people that want to steal archaeological resources from the hunting lands?

Strength in numbers!

I was very active in astronomy for a while and there was a point when someone attempted to create a statewide umbrella for all the small clubs scattered around, so we'd have a voice in large light pollution control issues. It never worked. Even thought the clubs attended the first organizational meeting, interest lagged and it never took off.

Writing letters can be a tireless task when such long time periods pass before we get responses to even our most basic questions about detecting on various lands.

That's why I would think a face-to-face with the members of the Game Commission would be necessary, in a professional atmosphere, where rules of procedure would be followed and questions answered or investigated.

Like some of the articles I've seen posted...the guys ripping off historical sites...this is our smear, even if it isn't us. We would need to convince the commission that what we do is a noble hobby, that we act in a professional manner by returning the ground to it's original condition,( less goodies) and are beneficial in removing others litter. We have to make them understand, "We are NOT history thieves!"

They're not going to bother waisting their time on 2 or 3 guys that send pesty letters. I think Greywolf did a great job being persistant...but we haven't got that permission we want, deserve, and have a right to.

Like I said before, no matter where the commission gets it's money, it is still PUBLIC monies that fund them.

And I think we could even be a step ahead of them (the commission) if we offered them a similar permit system, perhaps a willingness to buy a detecting stamp to attach to our detectors to prove who we are and they could monitor us like they do everyone else.

Gone about the right way...I think we could change things with them...but again...I think we need to show them, somehow, that it's more than 2 or 3 of us wanting the change. We'd need a good, solid commitment from a half decent number of people to make it worth the while. We need consensus among as many people from around the state, the clubs, and even people on forums like this, to agree in unison we want the change.

Then, once we can prove we have backing from a larger base, we got a shot to get an agenda with the commission.

Sounds like a few people will have to be busy getting in touch with clubs and stuff to try to generate some enthusiasm to form an umbrella organization willing to go to Harrisburg with our petition. I don't mean a petition with signatures, I mean our request in formal.
Could be a good winter project, eh?
Al

 

[RON (PA)]

AL,

I like your idea of unity. The only people that I can think of are the FMDAC (www.fmdac.org) and the AMDA (www.amdaonline.net). Maybe we could contact them to see if they can help change the laws of this stated.