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Don Jose,

Now I see what you were talking about.

Ponteach and Hal,

There is only one language. It is all French. "Sociente" is not a real word. The word is Société as in "Compagnie de Jésus" translates as "Company of Jesus" (the original name of the Jesuit Order was "Men in the Company of Jesus"). Notice in the English Translation, they did it correctly when they translated it as "Society of JesuITS" (not Jesus but Jesuits). So, the correct translation of "Society of Jesuits" would be "Société des Jesuites". The difference is just semantics, but what you are reading is a French Translation of a map originally written in Spanish. Just like the English Translation I posted, it is not exact, because many terms and phrases used 250 years ago, are completely different now.

My French isn't that good, but I can conjugate in Spanish and Russian, so French isn't all that different (Library= (FR)Bibliothèque, (SP)Biblioteca, (RU)Biblioteka). Love those Romance Languages!

Mike
 

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Last edited:
gollum said:
Don Jose,

Now I see what you were talking about.

Ponteach and Hal,

There is only one language. It is all French. "Sociente" is not a real word. The word is Société as in "Compagnie de Jésus" translates as "Company of Jesus" (the original name of the Jesuit Order was "Men in the Company of Jesus"). Notice in the English Translation, they did it correctly when they translated it as "Society of JesuITS" (not Jesus but Jesuits). So, the correct translation of "Society of Jesuits" would be "Société des Jesuites". The difference is just semantics, but what you are reading is a French Translation of a map originally written in Spanish. Just like the English Translation I posted, it is not exact, because many terms and phrases used 250 years ago, are completely different now.

My French isn't that good, but I can conjugate in Spanish and Russian, so French isn't all that different (Library= (FR)Bibliothèque, (SP)Biblioteca, (RU)Biblioteka). Love those Romance Languages!

Mike
Click to expand...

Mike,

Very nice post.:thumbsup:

Father O'Malley writes this in "The First Jesuits": [At this time they were simply "friends in the Lord."] I believe this was in 1534, which was a formative period for the Jesuits. No doubt you are correct that the first formal designation of the group is as highlighted above.

Take care,

Joe
 

cactusjumper said:
Mike,

Very nice post.:thumbsup:

Father O'Malley writes this in "The First Jesuits": [At this time they were simply "friends in the Lord."] I believe this was in 1534, which was a formative period for the Jesuits. No doubt you are correct that the first formal designation of the group is as highlighted above.

Take care,

Joe
Click to expand...

True, I don't think it was until after they were given formal recognition by the Church, did they begin calling themselves "Hombres en la Compania de Jesus". To this day, they don't really like being called Jesuits for some reason. I don't know about individually, but as an Order they prefer saying The Jesuit Order or The Order of Jesus. ???

MIke
 

gollum said:
No worries,

"Carte levee par la Sociente des Jesuites dediee on Roi d'Espagne en 1757"

The closest actual translation I can make is:

"Map (Carte) made/delivered (le`vee) by (par) the (la) Society of Jesus (Sociente des Jesuites) dedicated (dediee) it/to (no) The King of Spain in 1757 (Roi d`Espagne en 1757)

1. Just read the bottom left corner of my Venegas Map:

"An Accurate Map of California Drawn by the Society of Jesuits & Dedicated to the King of Spain 1757"

2. The answer to your second question is easy: YES They are the same map. The original is in Spanish. It was later translated into French and English (and German as well I think).

The Venegas Map is the ONLY map made by a Jesuit in the year 1757, that was meant to be delivered to the King of Spain. Something else you have to keep in mind is that neither the French nor the English had any presence in Nueva Vizcaya. They only made maps of Spanish Territories based on maps already made by Spaniards/Jesuits. So, DuVal, Chatelaine, Mosby, and the rest never saw any of those lands themselves.

Mike
Click to expand...


1702, essentially the same map only 55 year older (also derived from earlier work). Just not convinced yet that it was the one C.P. Stone copied in the Mexican archives. If Stones map and notes survive, they may be found in the West Point Library, which by the way is an incredible resource. We will know next week.

Here is how I see it. During the occupation of Mexico, or when he returned to work as a private citizen for the Mexican gov, Stone uncovered information in the Mexican archives that fueled the exploration of what would become AZ Territory. Stone was one of the founding members of the Aztec Club of 1847, a fraternal organization much like the one Washington organized after the Revolution. Compare the list of members to those who were involved in surveying, securing West Expansion.

Stone is worth reading about... involved in the construction of the base of the Statue of Liberty, a banker (failed), studied ETHICS at West Point with some familiar names, fought in Mexico, the War of 1862-65, in Egypt as an advisor, was wrongfully arrested for treason by McClellan (possibly under order from Lincoln) and confined for six months. Stones map and the notes must be somewhere. Just a theory here, but I think that we will find a few familiar mines described in Stone's notes.
 

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Joe,

Here is an excerpt from the Edict of 1705 regarding Mining Laws and Religious Types Mining:

Clerigosa.webp
Clerigosb.webp
Clerigosc.webp

Read that carefully! See the part when talking about Guanajuato that says: "and stated that in that kingdom they had NOT enforced the prohibition of the law which describes that Clerigos cannot hold mines, since in many Reales there are Clerigos that are miners either because of their having acquired them by Patrimony or because necessity has caused the matter to be overlooked....."

I think that passage can tell you that there were, in fact, a LOT more Jesuit Miners than you or Father Polzer would let on! HAHAHA It seemed to be pretty rampant based on King Phillip V's own words:

Clerigoshi.webp

Mike
 

gollum said:
Joe,

Here is an excerpt from the Edict of 1705 regarding Mining Laws and Religious Types Mining:

View attachment 1312805
View attachment 1312806
View attachment 1312807

Read that carefully! See the part when talking about Guanajuato that says: "and stated that in that kingdom they had NOT enforced the prohibition of the law which describes that Clerigos cannot hold mines, since in many Reales there are Clerigos that are miners either because of their having acquired them by Patrimony or because necessity has caused the matter to be overlooked....."

I think that passage can tell you that there were, in fact, a LOT more Jesuit Miners than you or Father Polzer would let on! HAHAHA It seemed to be pretty rampant based on King Phillip V's own words:

View attachment 1312810

Mike
Click to expand...

Where from? No typewriters then, so what is the vet-able reference?
 

You guys have got me wearing out my 'Like' button today.
Excellent posts!
 

Hal Croves said:

1702, essentially the same map only 55 year older (also derived from earlier work). Just not convinced yet that it was the one C.P. Stone copied in the Mexican archives. If Stones map and notes survive, they may be found in the West Point Library, which by the way is an incredible resource. We will know next week.

Here is how I see it. During the occupation of Mexico, or when he returned to work as a private citizen for the Mexican gov, Stone uncovered information in the Mexican archives that fueled the exploration of what would become AZ Territory. Stone was one of the founding members of the Aztec Club of 1847, a fraternal organization much like the one Washington organized after the Revolution. Compare the list of members to those who were involved in surveying, securing West Expansion.

Stone is worth reading about... involved in the construction of the base of the Statue of Liberty, a banker (failed), studied ETHICS at West Point with some familiar names, fought in Mexico, the War of 1862-65, in Egypt as an advisor, was wrongfully arrested for treason by McClellan (possibly under order from Lincoln) and confined for six months. Stones map and the notes must be somewhere. Just a theory here, but I think that we will find a few familiar mines described in Stone's notes.
Click to expand...

Hal,

The map in your post is The Kino 1702 Map in German. To see other variations just Google "Kino 1702 Map".

Mike
 

gollum said:
Hal,

The map in your post is The Kino 1702 Map in German. To see other variations just Google "Kino 1702 Map".

Mike
Click to expand...

I guess what I am looking for is Stone's copy and notes.
It should answer many of the questions I have.
 


Nothing is easy. Here is a digitized image of the folded map found attached to Mowry's book/report (1863 print). The map was not scanned (Harvard Library). It is not Stone's map.


"The accompanying map is simply what it professes to be-an "outline," giving the principal localities now attracting attention. It is as accurate as any yet published. The drawing is by Mr. J.B. Mills, C.E."
 

Hal Croves said:

Nothing is easy. Here is a digitized image of the folded map found attached to Mowry's book/report (1863 print). The map was not scanned (Harvard Library). It is not Stone's map.


"The accompanying map is simply what it professes to be-an "outline," giving the principal localities now attracting attention. It is as accurate as any yet published. The drawing is by Mr. J.B. Mills, C.E."
Click to expand...

Hal

The map in your picture is reversed . This is the normal image

Stone Map.webp
 

what do ya think about this? all R are Ruins. the biggest is R6. on the latin heart stand on the upper right side "crater". the canyon from point 4 leads to the crater at the upper right side of the heart. in the middle upper side of this crater the tailing looks like an ten. on the old military map stand "la barge canyon". barge is in german an old word for impact. at the bottom from the military map stand picacho. what is if there stand rancho? take this map and take as reference points the la barge canyon and reavis ranch, then you can recognize the military map. i think all peralta maps were made in west direction. maybe religious... east/west axle. check the coordinations from R6. 33.33.33.33 N. looks also religious - maybe it was the campo mayor? take the heart area and check it with the latin heart maybe youll find the cave of gold bars ;)

tresoromap.webp
 

BlackLine said:
what do ya think about this? all R are Ruins. the biggest is R6. on the latin heart stand on the upper right side "crater". the canyon from point 4 leads to the crater at the upper right side of the heart. in the middle upper side of this crater the tailing looks like an ten. on the old military map stand "la barge canyon". barge is in german an old word for impact. at the bottom from the military map stand picacho. what is if there stand rancho? take this map and take as reference points the la barge canyon and reavis ranch, then you can recognize the military map. i think all peralta maps were made in west direction. maybe religious... east/west axle. check the coordinations from R6. 33.33.33.33 N. looks also religious - maybe it was the campo mayor? take the heart area and check it with the latin heart maybe youll find the cave of gold bars ;)

View attachment 1314917
Click to expand...

Nice going Blackline! Just one thing I see wrong. All those stone maps that were carved from an earlier paper map have been proven to be fabrications out of the mind of one Travis Tumlinson the great hoaxsman of our time. We all fell for it until we were told he faked them. Now, we don't even discuss those maps anymore. Sort of a tabboo subject. You're welcome to show whatever you want just be advised you're using fake treasure maps sold at various novelty shops and tourist dives like the Supertstition Mountain Museum.
 

fake or no fake. this map match absolutley with every line and every point. the "F" the "8" the line half right side of the heart. the down left line next to the heart. everything in my opinion.
 

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