Lue Map

[PatrickD]

Spyro,

Allow me to be more clear. Your words are somewhat antagonistic for no reason. I am under no obligation to post what I know especially to a total stranger. Your assumptions are incorrect and are not going to motivate the sharing of more information to prove a point to someone I do not know.

Best of luck.

Patrick

 

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[PatrickD]

Randy,

Here is a recommended reading list. Most of these are still commercially available.

Edit: Put reading list in private message.

You can put this with the other information we have been sharing.

Patrick

 

[Randy Bradford]

Gracias sir, I've read a few of those. Pursuing some more information on related subjects as well. Looked like this conversation was getting intersting, never understand why some folks get so angry when people don't embrace their vantage point completely. We all have our own perspectives and experiences, I find that keeping an open mind and considering multiple vantae points is always advantageous. Demanding that others embrace your way of thinking is never a good way to approach things. Doing so when you have no more to showthan others espousng other ideas isn't only rude, but kinda silly as well.

Patrick, hats off for grace under pressure my friend!

Randy,

Here is a recommended reading list. Most of these are still commercially available.

Edit: Put reading list in private message.

You can put this with the other information we have been sharing.

Patrick

 

[PatrickD]

Gracias sir, I've read a few of those. Pursuing some more information on related subjects as well. Looked like this conversation was getting intersting, never understand why some folks get so angry when people don't embrace their vantage point completely. We all have our own perspectives and experiences, I find that keeping an open mind and considering multiple vantae points is always advantageous. Demanding that others embrace your way of thinking is never a good way to approach things. Doing so when you have no more to showthan others espousng other ideas isn't only rude, but kinda silly as well.

Patrick, hats off for grace under pressure my friend!

Randy,

Those books put together a great jigsaw puzzle of a treasure that somehow got nicknamed from an acronym.

Gets beyond the stuff just published by treasure hunters.

By the way, I think there were four cypher and code books listed. Good stuff in those.

Patrick

 

[sdcfia]

Randy,

Here is a recommended reading list. Most of these are still commercially available.

Edit: Put reading list in private message.

You can put this with the other information we have been sharing.

Patrick

Why bother posting this message? Maybe you two ought to keep your secrets to yourselves as email buds.

I don't know if Spyro's ideas hold water or not, but at least he put them out there to consider. All you've given us Patrick is murky allegations and a couple useless photos. It appears you are just trying to attract attention to yourself. That's fine for your ego, but it does no good for curious onlookers and rapidly wears thin.

 

[PatrickD]

Hi Sdcfia,

No need for self attention here. If my posts came across from a point of ego, that was not the intent.

As a courtesy, here is the book list. Please note, that there are well documented histories and timelines. I understand that these books contradict the statements made representing airfields on a map that predates air flight or that the Spanish didn't find gold in this region or that I have not read a book on codes.

Across the Northern Frontier - Spanish Explorations in Colorado
Codes & Secret Writing
Codes and Ciphers
Colorado Spanish Peaks Region
Coronados Quest - The Discovery of the Southwestern States
Cryptanalysis - A study of ciphers and their solution
Cryptography - The Science of Secret Writing
Early Discoveries by Spaniards in New Mexico
Early Spanish Treasure Signs & Symbols
Follow the Signs
Handbook of Treasure Signs and Symbols
Handbook of Treasure Symbols
Interpretation of Treasure Signs & Symbols
Interpreting The Symbols and Types
Land of the Conquistadores
Lost Treasures on the Old Spanish Trail
Quest for Empire - Spanish Settlement in the Southwest
Scenic Highway of Legends
Secret Symbols & Numbers of Aboriginal America
Secret Writing - An Introduction to Cryptograms, Ciphers and Codes
Spanish Exploration in the Southwest 1542 - 1706
Spanish in the Looking Glass
Summit - A Gold Rush History of Summit County Colorado
Symbols of the Church
Symbols, Signs & Signets
The Broken Spears - The Aztec Account of the Conquest of Mexico
The Conquest of America
The Conquistadors
The Daily Life of the Aztecs - On the Eve of the Spanish Conquest
The Dominguez Escalante Journal - Their expedition through Colorado, Utah, Arizona and New Mexico in 1776
The Fall of the Spanish American Empire
The Funnel of Gold - The trials of the Spanish Treasure Fleets as they carried home the wealth of the new world in the face of Privateers, Pirates and the Perils of the Sea
The Golden Conquistadores
The Last Conquistador - Juan De Onate and the Settling of the far Southwest
The Scarlet Shadow
The Spanish Conquistadores
The Spanish Empire in America
The Spanish Heritage in the United States
The Spanish Peaks

Although, I doubt many will obtain these books and use them. The same goes for learning additional skills like using a sextant. Even less will develop locations from these, and their own self-developed hypotheses, and then get out there to find them. But, without finding them, they still post theories that they themselves couldn't or wouldn't use. And how is someone else supposed to take that information, unused or useless from the originator, and deploy it?

But as far as your statement about murky allegations and useless photos? More than you have contributed. You see, to post more of my additional information beyond what has already been shared would be giving away too much information in my opinion. While I understand there are trolls and liars on the internet, my posts were not in that category. Sorry my murky allegations and useless photos did not meet your approval.

More information, including the location of cache sites have been shared with my friends, both online and in person. I just don't share the really good stuff in an open forum to total strangers who feel self entitled to get free access to years of work from another. Especially when they become insulting when it isn't readily provided.

As for murky allegations, I don't really see it that way. I have given starting points, necessary skills and photos of the sealed cache site I found. In retrospect, I cannot find the same from you. Seems an odd double standard.

As for the ole LUE? I havent seen much from others than odd hypotheses created more from imagination than actual research and field time. Most take treasure hunters in the wrong direction but none of which provide pictures or location finds. Learning to filter fact from fiction is a necessary skill for treasure hunters.

Might one suggest that if my posts do not meet the approval of curious onlookers and wear thin to simply skip them or ignore them.

The problem with putting incorrect ideas out to consider is that the originator couldn't use the 'idea' to find anything but post it and it becomes additional information to filter through for those trying to do research. If all a reader wants is additional theories to consider, then it meets that objective. If a hunter is filtering for facts, it is a distraction and waste of time.

Unfortunately, this is one treasure that won't be found through internet searches.

Respectfully, I have the utmost of respect for treasure hunters and treasure hunter theorists. There are many great people on this website who are not only fun to interact with but are honest and trustworthy people.

If anyone needs further information about these books, like ISBN, Author or publishing date, just send an email and I will share that information privately.

All the best.

P.

 

[Randy Bradford]

Patrick, again, thanks for the list...I own a number of those already from my Montezuma treasure research.

Not sure why so many people on here lately are so antagonistic and hostile, must be the positioning of the moon or something.

Frankly Patrick, I'm beginning to understand why you don't post more often then you do.

Randy

 

[sdcfia]

<cut>
But as far as your statement about murky allegations and useless photos? More than you have contributed. You see, to post more of my additional information beyond what has already been shared would be giving away too much information in my opinion. While I understand there are trolls and liars on the internet, my posts were not in that category. Sorry my murky allegations and useless photos did not meet your approval.

More information, including the location of cache sites have been shared with my friends, both online and in person. I just don't share the really good stuff in an open forum to total strangers who feel self entitled to get free access to years of work from another. Especially when they become insulting when it isn't readily provided.
<cut>

Only the terminaly naive expect to read anything on a public forum that will guide them to something of great value. I read and contribute here not to gather treasure secrets, but to identify individuals who may have something to offer offline, assuming a proper relationship might be established. When I read claims that a treasure legend has been solved and riches recovered by the poster, it's a red flag. If the claims are true, why brag about it on a public forum? What is the benefit? The downside potential far outweighs any benefit gained, IMO. Why would a successful treasure hunter need an ego boost? I simply cannot imagine finding a "Spanish gold" cache and then revealing that fact to anyone, particularly "online friends". Sorry if that sounds overly skeptical, but based on fundamental human nature and common sense, it implies that you may have dreamed a LUE recovery to rationalize the many years of effort you put into the project. Of course, I could be mistaken - if I am, I apologize. You are obviously well-informed and have strong beliefs. It would be terrific if your claims are true. Until that can be established, we have to consider other posters' claims too.

I have nothing to contribute to the LUE discussion, other than my belief that the whole phenomenon is a 20th century creation - possibly disinformation relating to something entirely different than what is in the public domain.

 

[Cossloffe]

Hi all.

New here.

I live on Aruba a small island in the Caribbean. English is not the first language here so sorry for any mistakes in spelling.

Been trying to follow all your discussions on LUE map etc. it is a lot of data.

Great that you share some knowledge and points of view on the matter.

What is the big idea? To share points of view in order to find this treasure together ? or just to find it?
Is there any website which is holding all concrete or seemingly concrete findings together? I mean I like to compare notes and share of course. It would seem more effective to list concepts and ideas in a concentrated way.

I like the idea of cracking this map together. However here are some basic questions I have. If anybody is willing to answer and help out so I can contribute as well.
Who has the real map? which institution or museum or other?
Anybody has the dimensions of the real map?
Anybody has a complete picture of the real map. Since LUE acronym was further described and mentioned to be noted on the side of the map. I have not seen such a picture yet.
Any other clues pertaining to this map? In text or additional documents?
It seems that in some book 2 people broke this code already? I guess they are not claiming they did? Anybody else claimed finding it?

Will ask more later. Still wondering if you will welcome newbies.

I do have some theories already and like to share however I may just sound ridiculous. First I like to have more real information to verify and confirm my theories and ideas.

Hope to get some positive info.

 

[lgadbois]

"Who has the real map? which institution or museum or other?"

Good question! The first and only LUE map I have ever seen is found in Karl Von Mueller's book, Treasure Hunter's Manual #7. Von Mueller (a pen name) did not disclose where he got the map. Some have claimed that he created the map for the book. If the pyramid on the U.S. one dollar bill relates to the LUE, the map was created less than 80 years ago.

 

[Randy Bradford]

Hi all.

New here.

I live on Aruba a small island in the Caribbean. English is not the first language here so sorry for any mistakes in spelling.

Been trying to follow all your discussions on LUE map etc. it is a lot of data.

Great that you share some knowledge and points of view on the matter.

What is the big idea? To share points of view in order to find this treasure together ? or just to find it?
Is there any website which is holding all concrete or seemingly concrete findings together? I mean I like to compare notes and share of course. It would seem more effective to list concepts and ideas in a concentrated way.

I just like talking about treasure sites I have some understanding about. I like to share what I can, and I like to be exposed to new points of view. When you have an interest in something, it's easy to get locked into a certain way of thinking...alternative points of view area great way to break free of that.

I have no intention of making a recovery on the LUE at this point, I'm a researcher, plain and simple. I like to read, i like to chase down leads, I like to talk to people with mutual interests. I also come here because a few folks that know Von Mueller still lurk around and I like having a glimpse into the things Kalr Von Mueller did and the era in which he did his best work.

I like the idea of cracking this map together. However here are some basic questions I have. If anybody is willing to answer and help out so I can contribute as well.
Who has the real map? which institution or museum or other?
Anybody has the dimensions of the real map?
Anybody has a complete picture of the real map. Since LUE acronym was further described and mentioned to be noted on the side of the map. I have not seen such a picture yet.
Any other clues pertaining to this map? In text or additional documents?
It seems that in some book 2 people broke this code already? I guess they are not claiming they did? Anybody else claimed finding it?

Igadbois is incorrect, KvM disclosed how he came by the map, in as much as he could, on several occasions:

•NPG (1969): “The original map as copied and reproduced in the THM-7 was owned by a man who lived in or near Phoenix. The map had been in his family for years and has been seen by dozens of people prior to 1960. Despite this, there are several others who claim to have the original map in their possession.”


•ToVoS (1971): 1955 “Hardrock Hammond had come into possession of the LUE map and several of us were copying it (it had to be returned to the owner after we had copied it).”

The "real" map is presumably still in the hands of the last known owner, who that is, is not public knowledge. Your best glimpse (presumably) into the map is through the ORIGINAL version of the Treasure Hunter's Manual #7. That would be the 1966 version published by The Gold Bug. RAM publishing bought the rights to the book and began reprinting it in 1972. This is the version most people are familiar with but they made at least 2 subtle changes to the LUE map so most people are familiar with a modified version. How much impact the changes make on interpretation and recovery is anyone's guess.

Astute observation about the word LUE and Von Mueller's statements that he was presenting the complete map. Von Mueller wrote on several occasions that he got the word "LUE" from the first three letters of three words n the map. There are versions about of what those words were and how to interpret them. So far as I know, von Mueller never published that information. A writer in the early 1980s by the name of Boyd Jolley published parts of a letter from a correspondence with Von Mueller where we get the words: Lloro, Urrana and Enterrari Ultimately, it remains ot be seen if Von Mueller endorsed these words as being on the map, further research might solve this question at some point (I hope).

2 that broke the map, one would have been (at the time) Karl Von Mueller himself, the other would most likely either be Hardrock Hammond or Montana Larry Campbell. Montana Larry supposedly recovered a cache of LUE gold at Black Lake, NM along with Karl. A recent article I came across indicates Karl made a LUE recovery in 1957. Karl himself reported in the NPG of many other recoveries made after the map was published in 1966.

Will ask more later. Still wondering if you will welcome newbies.

I do have some theories already and like to share however I may just sound ridiculous. First I like to have more real information to verify and confirm my theories and ideas.

Hope to get some positive info.[/QUOTE]

Always welcome, good thread like this always needs fresh ideas...welcome aboard....

 

[Cossloffe]

Great.

Thank you for the welcome notes. Happy to be here.
I think that together we can crack this. Of course every treasure hunter wants 2 things the credit and the loot. So it might prove difficult to work together. However I like to try.
So I will try to interact with all. I tend to not sugar coat much, but all in all I respect everybody and like to express right away that my intention is NOT to offend anybody. Just look for a truth.

First of all I like to ask if anybody knows if there is a way we can have a like a page where we can accumulate data we think is right. So to not let the work or efforts go to waste and have to repeat.

So the only version was omitted by this gentleman himself, based on his book. Ok!

No reactions as to anybody who has ever seen the acronym exposed on the map. Still I would love to see this. So if anybody knows or has a version with the LUE acronym or text on the map please kindly share!

Old version of the book. Anybody have this digitalized? happy to send contributions for a digital copy.

I read that this LUE is on the states itself? This is a bit convenient, no matter. We will crack this and then we will go find it.

Somebody suggested the use of a sextant. I can see why. How many stars did you find? I read that you think that the depicted sun is actually Polaris. Very interesting. Can you prove this?(no offense intended) or can we be sure of this?
How many stars do you think should be found?

I am not sure about the Horizon. But the moon might give an idea. But so does the sextant...

Another weird thing is that the sun is in front of the moon. How is that possible? I guess it must just mean a full moon?

The time of the day, just getting into that. But the grid might give us the information. I will try to get these maps out of each other. A friend will help me separate them with Illustrator he says. Anyway with the maps out of each other It might be easier to see things.

Anybody have any idea of which constellation was used? How did you find the stars?

I do wonder if the date matters much I mean with the positioning of the stars and such. I mean I guess after a hundred years the constellations will go unchanged. Yeah I am not an astronomer...

Hope to get some feedback.

greets

 

[PatrickD]

Hi Cossloffe,

Please allow one slight correction. The image on the map is not the north star. However, it is the fixed position that all celestial navigation uses. Polaris (The Pole Star) is the only star that does not change. It is a fixed position. To triangulate with a sextant, one needs three points. The first should be polaris. Think of it like a cone shape where polaris is the top of that cone. The bottom of the cone creates a circle on the planet where the navigator is somewhere on the perimeter of that circle. Using a second celestial body (of which i am not going to list here due to previous bashings), creates a second cone. The affect is that a second circle is then superimposed where two points intersect. (Overlap one circle halfway across another and there will be two points where the circles cross.) The navigator will be on one of those two intersections. A third point of navigation is needed for a third circle. There will be only one spot where the three intersect and that is the physical location of the navigator. This is the basic starting point of celestial navigation.

Meriwether Lewis was a good navigator and combined the time piece to calculate hours, minutes, seconds. All navigators used this methodology. An internet search can provide more specifics on navigating such as the way to project a destination. This little paragraph is just a reference point and not intended to be an exact historical reference of navigation.

The two oblong lines on the top right quadrant of the LUE map have spaces in them. This is old world navigation settings. Those two lines give the location. If you can use a sextant you can find where it takes you. That is why you hear so much about the longitude being discussed. It does not take much to translate those two measures.

KVM was convinced this was Spanish. I did not take that word for it and did my own thorough historical research ad nauseum. There is only one historical timeline that fits. The other 'theories' have holes in them too large to fit in historical context. It is a common practice to fill in the holes with self generated theories to retrofit the treasure legend. But, the historical facts are there spread across many texts. It can only be Spanish if we stick to the facts and stop trying to force a theory to fit history.

I know KVM spent a lot of time looking west of Segundo. That is where the photos from Treasure of the Valley of Secrets was taken. I spent a lot of time covering that area and did not personally find anything except one area that looked to be sunk in an area of about a 20 foot square. I could not tell if it was a collapsed room of sorts or a natural phenomenon. It was so high up the mountain that a further investigation would take too long so I pretty much just blew it off.

The sealed cache site I found with the shadow markings carved in it was north of that area.

There are many recovered finds associated with this treasure. One could easily mark them all on a map and see the intervals at which the storage caches were placed. The gaps in the intervals are unrecovered cache sites or unpublished recoveries.

I hope this information is useful in your efforts.

All the best,

Patrick

 

[Cossloffe]

thank you for your detailed response.

So 3 stars, and it seems there was a discussion to who is right about these stars.
To get these stars to show on the map one needs the key right? The iayayam key?
Do you have this key? Do you know anybody who has the key to reading the map?
Would you have any idea on how to use it?

The top right quadrant."The two oblong lines on the top right quadrant of the LUE map have spaces in them". Could you kindly inform me the name of these so I can look it up online?

Do you have any points of view on the moon and the other sun?

grts

Bryant

 

[Randy Bradford]

thank you for your detailed response.

The top right quadrant."The two oblong lines on the top right quadrant of the LUE map have spaces in them". Could you kindly inform me the name of these so I can look it up online?

Bryant

Try this...

 

[PatrickD]

I found this image rather interesting:

All Seeing Eye. Image taken from page 25 of Barber, A. H. (2006) Celestial Symbols. USA: Horizon Publishers

 

[Cossloffe]

Great

Thanks

So do you have the key?

Do more people have the key?

Bryant

 

[Cossloffe]

Friend,

try this point of view.

it is not an eye.
it is the sign of the sun over two quarter moons.

 

[Cossloffe]

I did not read KvM book. Trying to buy one online (shipping is always an issue because of my global location).

Does he ever explain what the treasure is? Did he mention a direct material? Diamonds, jewels, objects, gold, coins, etc?

Bryant

 

[PatrickD]

Bryant,

It is gold and silver. Spanish mining, ore smelted into bars, cached until a quantity was met, then shipped back. History explains why the Spanish quickly gave up the territory abandoning cache sites.

Patrick