LUE MAP THEORY, MAYBE SOME CONTEXT

[point hunter]

Also in northern Utah were Native Americans that the Spanish called the bearded ones.

The "Bearded Ones", very interesting. There are also stories in both North and South America of a "White teacher" (maybe bearded) in the native tribe's oral history. Before you throw the baby out with the bath water could they have been referring to the "Bearded Ones" possibly?

 

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[mdog]

You may have gotten me on that one. I haven't bothered to plot them on google earth to see exact locations. Basically, I was thinking one northern Utah and another in southern Utah.

In Treasure of the Valley of Secrets, von Mueller mentions a Cave of Gold in southern Utah in the Monument Valley. I've never heard a cave of gold legend for that region.

 

[mdog]

The "Bearded Ones", very interesting. There are also stories in both North and South America of a "White teacher" (maybe bearded) in the native tribe's oral history. Before you throw the baby out with the bath water could they have been referring to the "Bearded Ones" possibly?

Could be, but he sounds like one person, the bearded people the Spanish refer to are a tribe of Indians, I think Shoshone but they have also been called the "bearded Utes". It's interesting because the codex you posted shows bearded people.

 

[point hunter]

In Treasure of the Valley of Secrets, von Mueller mentions a Cave of Gold in southern Utah in the Monument Valley. I've never heard a cave of gold legend for that region.

Then possibly it's related back to "shot Put Man" who is located in Southern Utah. IMHO, the oldest oral stories or field signs mark a beginning point to find the 7 (or more) lost locations. Mr. Mueller may have had additional clues/signs, etc. he never put in print, so ?

 

[mdog]

Has anybody ever heard a Cave of Gold treasure legend originating in the Monument Valley of southern Utah and northern Arizona?

 

[point hunter]

Could be, but he sounds like one person, the bearded people the Spanish refer to are a tribe of Indians, I think Shoshone but they have also been called the "bearded Utes". It's interesting because the codex you posted shows bearded people.

I remember the stories as you said, now. it was a single entity not a group. See, what happens when you think you can remember all this and not take many notes. LOL, But he was white and possibly had a beard.

 

[mdog]

Then possibly it's related back to "shot Put Man" who is located in Southern Utah. IMHO, the oldest oral stories or field signs mark a beginning point to find the 7 (or more) lost locations. Mr. Mueller may have had additional clues/signs, etc. he never put in print, so ?

I don't know, but if there are no Cave of Gold legends in the Monument Valley, there might be something else there of interest to a Mason. The Three Sisters are geological formations consisting of three large rock columns. Three columns, or pillars, are a part of Masonic lore.

 

[mdog]

I remember the stories as you said, now. it was a single entity not a group. See, what happens when you think you can remember all this and not take many notes. LOL, But he was white and possibly had a beard.

How do you feel about northern Utah and the Carre-Shinob as the place of the seven caves of the Aztecs?

 

[point hunter]

How do you feel about northern Utah and the Carre-Shinob as the place of the seven caves of the Aztecs?

I think there is enough Aztec sign there to consider it possibly valid. Similar to the Sups. With that much smoke (field sign, oral history, etc.) there must still be some fire left. Speaking of fire, ever hear any stories about openings in the Sups and when you look in magma can be seen. But then they go back and nothing. Lava tubes could explain a lot of things, no?

 

[mdog]

I think there is enough Aztec sign there to consider it possibly valid. Similar to the Sups. With that much smoke (field sign, oral history, etc.) there must still be some fire left. Speaking of fire, ever hear any stories about openings in the Sups and when you look in magma can be seen. But then they go back and nothing. Lava tubes could explain a lot of things, no?

I've never heard of that, but I've never been to Arizona.

 

[sdcfia]

I'm inclined to concur with this assessment. Now, my opinion is biased but I have followed your work through the years, and I know it's solid. With that said let's take out Victorio Peak and add the Cookes Range area. So, a good solid # 4 Imo. Any other places names you care to add to the short list?

The Chicomoztoc-Cibola-et al, Mexican "seven caves legends" are linked to "treasure" locations north of the Aztec Empire, but as far as I know the individual locations haven't been identified, so we have to speculate based on certain traditions of alleged subsurface gold and Aztec-related evidence (carvings, trade goods, local legends, etc). Utah has at least two - the Carre-Shinob site in the Uinta Mountains and Freddy Crystal's Montezuma treasure in Johnson Canyon, near Kanab. Arizona's Superstition Mountains legends, including Lost Dutchman lore, may all stem from the RG Babcock Chicomoztoc cave there. The one I mentioned in New Mexico allegedly consists of a cavern system that originates in the Pinos Altos Range and extends south all the way into Mexico. That's four possibilities that more or less fit. They may or may not be connected to the Mexican legends.

There many other stories about caves of gold in the Southwest, with more indefinite pre-Anglo connections. Locations in New Mexico include the Caballos Mountains, Cookes Range, The Gila Cliff Dwellings, and the Capitan Range. Arizona has the single most spectacularly described site - the Kinkaid Cave in the Grand Canyon. Colorado has the LUE and other sites in the San Luis Valley. Utah has some interesting caves allegedly containing burials of advanced (and giant) ancient civilized natives. Whether any of these are members of the seven is a matter of opinion, but all are intriguing nonetheless.

 

[mdog]

This is “Shot put Man”. He is located in Cedar city, Utah. Imho, he is a clue to how far back in time all this goes. He holds a “globe” and had a cross for a head. Most think he’s created by the Spanish, but IMO, he doesn’t match their carving style.

I thought you might find this interesting.

If you know about the Shot Putt Man you have probably heard of the Mystery Glyphs.

https://mysteryglyphs.com/pages/Articles/Leigh/Western_Message_Petroglyphs_Esoterica_i.pdf

This google earth map shows Utah with colored lines, from my LUE mapping, crisscrossing the state. The red pins with the M on them show the locations where Mystery Glyphs have been found. Look how close they are next to the north/south blue line. I don't know if there are rail tracks along that line, or not.

 

[point hunter]

Is this a complete mapping of all the panel sites? I am aware of them, but haven't spent too much time on them. It is interesting that the majority of them seem to march south straight into Arizona. That is odd isn't it? I'm sure there are some tracks and tressels through all that country. Do you think these glyphs are a past dead language or a group with their own "alphabet" if you will.

 

[mdog]

Is this a complete mapping of all the panel sites? I am aware of them, but haven't spent too much time on them. It is interesting that the majority of them seem to march south straight into Arizona. That is odd isn't it? I'm sure there are some tracks and tressels through all that country. Do you think these glyphs are a past dead language or a group with their own "alphabet" if you will.

Sdcfia gave me these locations years ago. I don't know if any new stones have been found. I don't know the origin.

 

[point hunter]

The Chicomoztoc-Cibola-et al, Mexican "seven caves legends" are linked to "treasure" locations north of the Aztec Empire, but as far as I know the individual locations haven't been identified, so we have to speculate based on certain traditions of alleged subsurface gold and Aztec-related evidence (carvings, trade goods, local legends, etc). Utah has at least two - the Carre-Shinob site in the Uinta Mountains and Freddy Crystal's Montezuma treasure in Johnson Canyon, near Kanab. Arizona's Superstition Mountains legends, including Lost Dutchman lore, may all stem from the RG Babcock Chicomoztoc cave there. The one I mentioned in New Mexico allegedly consists of a cavern system that originates in the Pinos Altos Range and extends south all the way into Mexico. That's four possibilities that more or less fit. They may or may not be connected to the Mexican legends.

There many other stories about caves of gold in the Southwest, with more indefinite pre-Anglo connections. Locations in New Mexico include the Caballos Mountains, Cookes Range, The Gila Cliff Dwellings, and the Capitan Range. Arizona has the single most spectacularly described site - the Kinkaid Cave in the Grand Canyon. Colorado has the LUE and other sites in the San Luis Valley. Utah has some interesting caves allegedly containing burials of advanced (and giant) ancient civilized natives. Whether any of these are members of the seven is a matter of opinion, but all ar

Imho, if you put the aztecs "lake with reeds" (I think that what they called it) at Salt Lake City, Utah. ( I'm reading the exit from the caves as their mystic lake). Then going clockwise from there are:
1. Unita Mountains
2. Segundo area
3. LUE of Noth New Mexico
4. The Cookes area
5. The Superstition Mountains
6. Northern Grand Canyon
7. Cedar City area

I left off Victorio Peak for a couple of reasons: It has the apperance (description) of a vault more than a mine entrance. At this point I haven't found enough Aztec/Ancient evidence to consider it part of the codex. The same with Treasure Mountain. This is long on theory and thin on evidence, but this elusive lake of the Aztecs north of Mexico city did exist. Now you say why not the Salton Sea, again Imho, if a migrating people were that close to a coast line I think they would have found it. If you consider the mystery glyph mapping as part of a migration/living area pattern, the bulk of the glyph sites do support this. However, following the glyph theory, you could agrue a case all the way to Northern California or possibly another group.

 

[point hunter]

I almost forgot. I would have included Kokoweef if it wasn't in California. I have found evidence of a high flow underground river north and east of there. Basically the south west corner of Nevada. This happens to be right next to the Northern Grand Canyon area. If the Kokoweef description is valid, I wonder how much gold could be in those caves/mines.

 

[point hunter]

Could be, but he sounds like one person, the bearded people the Spanish refer to are a tribe of Indians, I think Shoshone but they have also been called the "bearded Utes". It's interesting because the codex you posted shows bearded people.

This makes me think of the lost tribe (or was it tribes) of Israel story.

 

[sdcfia]

Imho, if you put the aztecs "lake with reeds" (I think that what they called it) at Salt Lake City, Utah. ( I'm reading the exit from the caves as their mystic lake). Then going clockwise from there are:
1. Unita Mountains
2. Segundo area
3. LUE of Noth New Mexico
4. The Cookes area
5. The Superstition Mountains
6. Northern Grand Canyon
7. Cedar City area

I left off Victorio Peak for a couple of reasons: It has the apperance (description) of a vault more than a mine entrance. At this point I haven't found enough Aztec/Ancient evidence to consider it part of the codex. The same with Treasure Mountain. This is long on theory and thin on evidence, but this elusive lake of the Aztecs north of Mexico city did exist. Now you say why not the Salton Sea, again Imho, if a migrating people were that close to a coast line I think they would have found it. If you consider the mystery glyph mapping as part of a migration/living area pattern, the bulk of the glyph sites do support this. However, following the glyph theory, you could agrue a case all the way to Northern California or possibly another group.

Yeah, there are many sites to look at. The VP gold, IMO, was WWII plunder by our government, using the Noss legends as a convenient explanation for its existence and discovery. Noss's valid recovery was in the Caballos, using VP as misdirection and as a convenient reason to fleece investors. Noss was a criminal all his life, you know. That's my take anyway.

Tracing the Aztecs pre-migration homeland ("Aztlan" is a typical name for the place) has been debatable for hundreds of years. The Utah "lake of reeds" has always had strong support. Aztec gold? Some searchers focus on its original sources in Southwest USA, some focus on its hiding spots after being relocated from Tenotchtitlan in the 16th century. Another interesting theory is that the even earlier Aztec homeland was Cahokia, on the Mississippi River. That would give them a Cahokia >> Aztlan >> Tenotchtitlan history.

Re the Mystery Glyphs - IMO they are clearly the relatively recent work of the so-called Organization and likely closely associated with Ojibwa symbology. Check Dan Lowe's work on this. Another interesting aspect of the Organization lore - viv-a-vis the Jesse James era - is the close ties they had with Native Americans, northern tribes in general, including the Ojibwa. Coincidence? The Mystery Glyphs are generally found near treasure cache legends and often in/near mining districts and railroad routes.

 

[point hunter]

Hola amigos - and you guessed that I was referring to the rather mysterious Hohokam people. (For our readers not posting, here is a brief online article explaining pretty well)

Arizona

The earliest canals built by these people are believed to date to 1100 BC - so they were present, and farming, for a VERY long time. It is thought that they had and used a fairly accurate calendar (necessary for farming) and those ball courts are a particular problem to try to explain. As you know some historians will theorize about a migration of people south, but few propose a migration to the north - yet here we have those ball courts, similar to the ancient Mayans, and even a few of the rubber balls used for the game have been found. These rubber balls had to come from at the closest, southern Mexico, quite a distance from the Salt river valley. How did they get them?

Pierpont C. Bicknell wrote an article in 1894, in which he claimed to have found an ancient Hohokam copper mine on the top of Superstition mountain. Was he simply making up a story? Only a few copper artifacts have been found in Hohokam sites, which does not prove anything other than they did have copper items as part of their culture. A stone solar calender was found in Heiroglyphic canyon (if memory serves) which was later removed, someone had posted where it is located today but clearly some 'civilized' people were entering the Superstitions, centuries ago, before the Europeans arrived.

Jacob Waltz signed his name Waltz, not Walzer or Waltzer, so I have to accept that was the correct spelling. I don't know of any connection between Waltz and the ancient people of the area, but it is possible there could be a connection - perhaps his mine had been an ancient Hohokam mine? I doubt it but maybe, won't know for sure until someone finds the mine.

As to the Calalus and/or Oz relics, you probably have read my doubts on another forum so no need to cover it again. While I have NO doubt that people(s) were visiting the Americas from the Old World, up to 1200 years before Christ, I can not place any faith in the Calalus artifacts or the story of Oz. If you wish to see a piece of evidence that is far less questionable, and points to ancient visitors to the southwest from across the ocean, I would suggest the so-called Los Lunas "decalogue" or 'dekalogue' ; thought to be an ancient Hebrew version of the Ten Commandments, carved on stone, in a semi-remote spot in New Mexico. Not far from the stone are what appears to be an ancient fortification. Evidences of ancient prospectors or miners, have been found in such diverse locations as Michigan's upper peninsula and deep in the Black Hills, clearly not the work of primitive hunter-gatherer Indian tribes, or for more 'solid' type ruins, we have Mystery Hill in New Hampshire. At Mystery Hill people have been re-arranging the ruins until we can not know exactly what it looked like previously, but carved inscriptions in Phoenician and what appears to be ancient Ogam have been found, giving a clue as to whom had originally occupied the site. Other even stronger pieces of evidence, proving ancient visitors DID come to America by sea across the oceans have been found too, but that is another story.

Not too far from where I now live, in a spot known as "Spanish Diggings" there are ruins covering the top of a plateau for a considerable area, with evidences of farming tools, pottery, specialized shops etc and dating to BC; who or whom was farming in SE Wyoming in the BC era? No one knows. I am getting carried away here and do not wish to draw you (or anyone) into an argument so will close here. Please do continue amigos, I look forward to reading your posts.
Oroblanco

LDM, OZ, & CALALUS

Hello Everyone. I am new to this forum, but have been following posts and threads for some time. After reading many posts on a few forums, I have three questions that hopefully someone on here can answer. If they've been answered somewhere else just let me know and I'll do the research. I don't...

www.treasurenet.com

IMO, Oroblanco's work is also solid. He's spent years on Tnet educating and debunking incorrect historical teachings. I have included this thread, because IMO there are valid clues scattered throughout which will get us further down the trail.

 

[point hunter]

Lack of knowledge is what holds back man's cultural achievements.

Horses are a tool, but the New World had no indigenous horses since the end of the Pleistocene Age - the animals being reintroduced with the Spanish Conquest. However, despite a lack of horses, it can be argued that significent human cultural advancement did indeed occur in a number of New World venues. The Spanish's shock at Tenochtitlan's sophistication, our own respect for the Mayan's cosmology and the world's wonderment of a dozen other stunning archeological sites in Central/South America prove that point. None of these obviously knowledgeable cultures had horses.

They did have plenty of knowledge though, and it seems likely that knowledge wasn't home grown, but was given to them by persons whom we can't yet identify conclusively. Based on a boatload of cultural, symbology and architectural similarities, and New World traditions, the New World cultural knowledge came from points east. The North American story isn't as clear, although the Mound Builders in the South and Midwest left lots of intriguing artifacts that were frequently plowed up by farmers, then dismissed by experts as frauds. Here in the Southwest, most of the ruins are basicly crude. Chaco is an exception - I tend to buy the idea that it was a temporary stop for migrating Aztecs who may have begun their journey at Cahokia, a site with similarities to Central American sites.

That said, what about the questions oldpueblo raised? I have a lot of ideas about the subject, but these are my quick-and-dirty opinions:
1) I think there are secret hidden sites in the Southwest. Any 'information' released about them, in any manner (introduction of fake artifacts, disposition of genuine artifacts, discovery of maps, testimony of individuals, etc.) is done to obfuscate the truth and misdirect the curious. Many, many of the 'treasure clues' and gold legends surfaced in the 1930's.
2) Nobody outside the tightly controlled Organization, which owns and controls the sites, will ever be given knowledge of them.
3) It's all about diversion - the clues, the carvings, the legends, all of it. The Organization allows the curious to run in circles away from their sites. Waltz may possibly have been an Organization man. IMO, trying to understand the 'Calalus/Oz' stuff posted on these threads is a waste of your time.

These are my opinions only and can't be proven.

Adios, amigos - it's been interesting.

This quote is by Springfield in the same thread as above, post #24. IMO, these two quotes help built the case presented by SDC.