LUE MAP THEORY, MAYBE SOME CONTEXT

[mdog]

"In Salamanca thirty members of one lodge were shot, including a priest."

Interesting. Was the priest a member of the Lodge? We have pastors in my Lodges....priests, implying catholicism, isnt too common. Spain is a different country though.......

I have a couple of Kenworthy's books (not the $500 per copy ones) and I didn't notice anything Masonic but, I didn't have a Mason hat on when I read them. I will reread them while "thinking Masonically."

Bell symbol = new to me Can a bell be confused with an owl?

Communism: Lodges, like anything else, can be subverted. In that part of the world, at that time (war time), I THINK there is evidence of Lodges in Spain, France and Germany, working together against Germany and its partners. And since Germany saw themselves as fighting communism or bulshavism......all Masons are therefore commies.
That said: Some Masons ARE commies, but not so much here in the US, imo. So, this may be an unfortunate "reality" in the history of the craft.
Please keep it coming. I am becoming more interested in this as the days go on........

Karl von Mueller introduced the LUE map to the public about 70 years ago, at a time when information was a lot harder to come by than it is today. It seems the family who owned the original map had it for years before that. Considering that, do you think that the person who designed the map had a greater than normal understanding of Masonic symbols and might have been a Mason, himself?

 

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[mdog]

"In Salamanca thirty members of one lodge were shot, including a priest."

Interesting. Was the priest a member of the Lodge? We have pastors in my Lodges....priests, implying catholicism, isnt too common. Spain is a different country though.......

I have a couple of Kenworthy's books (not the $500 per copy ones) and I didn't notice anything Masonic but, I didn't have a Mason hat on when I read them. I will reread them while "thinking Masonically."

Bell symbol = new to me Can a bell be confused with an owl?

Communism: Lodges, like anything else, can be subverted. In that part of the world, at that time (war time), I THINK there is evidence of Lodges in Spain, France and Germany, working together against Germany and its partners. And since Germany saw themselves as fighting communism or bulshavism......all Masons are therefore commies.
That said: Some Masons ARE commies, but not so much here in the US, imo. So, this may be an unfortunate "reality" in the history of the craft.
Please keep it coming. I am becoming more interested in this as the days go on........

Can a bell be confused with an owl?

Here's a big rock at the foot of a high bluff. that I thought was a bell for years. There's even a five foot flat section that's big enough to hold articles of communion. I thought it was a bell but there are a lot of carved owls in the area.

 

[cuzimloony]

Karl von Mueller introduced the LUE map to the public about 70 years ago, at a time when information was a lot harder to come by than it is today. It seems the family who owned the original map had it for years before that. Considering that, do you think that the person who designed the map had a greater than normal understanding of Masonic symbols and might have been a Mason, himself?

Yup. But it seems Von Mueller got the map himself in a more primitave form, at least according to that video above. The more primitave version of the map (from the video above) CAN BE Masonic, but it is vague. It can be non-Masonic just as easy.
Id say, based on that video and my minimal research, there's a very good chance it was Von Mueller himself who made that map Masonic.

 

[mdog]

Does anybody have an accurate description of the Cave of Gold that was featured in The Treasure of the Valley of Secrets. Here's an AI description.

In "Treasure of the Valley of Secrets," the "Cave of Gold" is depicted as a vast, hidden cavern deep within a remote mountain range, filled with glittering gold artifacts, jewels, and precious metals, seemingly untouched for centuries, guarded by ancient traps and mystical elements, with a legendary golden idol at its heart, often described as the ultimate treasure sought by adventurers seeking the valley's secrets.

Key details about the Cave of Gold:

• Appearance:
  The cave itself is described as having shimmering walls adorned with intricate carvings, with a large chamber that opens up to a dazzling display of gold, reflecting light in all directions.
• Golden Idol:
  The central treasure is often a large, golden statue of a mythical creature or deity, radiating an almost mystical aura.
• Traps and Guardians:
  To protect the treasure, the cave is said to have numerous deadly traps, including pressure plates, hidden pitfalls, and even magical guardians that appear to defend the treasure.
• Mystical Elements:
  Some stories may add an element of supernatural energy or a mystical presence within the cave, further enhancing its allure and danger.

 

[sdcfia]

Does anybody have an accurate description of the Cave of Gold that was featured in The Treasure of the Valley of Secrets. Here's an AI description.

In "Treasure of the Valley of Secrets," the "Cave of Gold" is depicted as a vast, hidden cavern deep within a remote mountain range, filled with glittering gold artifacts, jewels, and precious metals, seemingly untouched for centuries, guarded by ancient traps and mystical elements, with a legendary golden idol at its heart, often described as the ultimate treasure sought by adventurers seeking the valley's secrets.

Key details about the Cave of Gold:

• Appearance:
  The cave itself is described as having shimmering walls adorned with intricate carvings, with a large chamber that opens up to a dazzling display of gold, reflecting light in all directions.
• Golden Idol:
  The central treasure is often a large, golden statue of a mythical creature or deity, radiating an almost mystical aura.
• Traps and Guardians:
  To protect the treasure, the cave is said to have numerous deadly traps, including pressure plates, hidden pitfalls, and even magical guardians that appear to defend the treasure.
• Mystical Elements:
  Some stories may add an element of supernatural energy or a mystical presence within the cave, further enhancing its allure and danger.

I wouldn't trust AI at all for its reliability. Just sayin'.

I just skimmed through Miller's (or as he called himself this time, Deek Gladson) Treasure of the Valley of Secrets, this morning, all 46 tedious pages of it, . Included in my .pdf file is Miller's own annotated copy of Walter Hurt's The Scarlett Shadow . These are presumably his pencilled notes in the margins (I found Poe's The Gold Bug reference particularly interesting). Notice also the weird line work such as on the page 375 example below. Somehow, the TVS cave, LUE, et al, location at the headwaters region of the Purgatoire River is conflated with the events of the proposed labor conspiracy shenanigans in TSS and somehow related.

To answer your question, dog, there are many general allegations about the Cave in TVS from many sources, but really, no particular convincing testimony about its details, IMO. Lots of innuendos from tall tale references.

However, lets toss some fuel to the LUE conspiracy fire. At the end of TVS , Miller adds two "FINIS" pages. I say "conspiracy" because of the unusual inking in of numerous lower case letter o's on those pages. Not all letter o's, but lots of them. Why? A word code? Some sort of Baconian cypher? A geometrical pattern? A map overlay? Ha ha.

I think you and cuz are doing some excellent work lately with the Masonic connections to the cartoon map. As you know, my bottom line on Miller is that he was a disinformationist for the Organization.

 

[mdog]

I wouldn't trust AI at all for its reliability. Just sayin'.

I just skimmed through Miller's (or as he called himself this time, Deek Gladson) Treasure of the Valley of Secrets, this morning, all 46 tedious pages of it, . Included in my .pdf file is Miller's own annotated copy of Walter Hurt's The Scarlett Shadow . These are presumably his pencilled notes in the margins (I found Poe's The Gold Bug reference particularly interesting). Notice also the weird line work such as on the page 375 example below. Somehow, the TVS cave, LUE, et al, location at the headwaters region of the Purgatoire River is conflated with the events of the proposed labor conspiracy shenanigans in TSS and somehow related.

To answer your question, dog, there are many general allegations about the Cave in TVS from many sources, but really, no particular convincing testimony about its details, IMO. Lots of innuendos from tall tale references.

However, lets toss some fuel to the LUE conspiracy fire. At the end of TVS , Miller adds two "FINIS" pages. I say "conspiracy" because of the unusual inking in of numerous lower case letter o's on those pages. Not all letter o's, but lots of them. Why? A word code? Some sort of Baconian cypher? A geometrical pattern? A map overlay? Ha ha.

I think you and cuz are doing some excellent work lately with the Masonic connections to the cartoon map. As you know, my bottom line on Miller is that he was a disinformationist for the Organization.

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Sdcfia, thank you very much for the information. In The Scarlet Shadow, is there a description of the inside of the cave? Daryl Friesen made a video about the subject and he started reading about the inside of the cave but then he just stopped. If there is a description of the inside of the cave, in the book, I'd like to see it. Thanks again.

 

[cuzimloony]

I wouldn't trust AI at all for its reliability. Just sayin'.

I just skimmed through Miller's (or as he called himself this time, Deek Gladson) Treasure of the Valley of Secrets, this morning, all 46 tedious pages of it, . Included in my .pdf file is Miller's own annotated copy of Walter Hurt's The Scarlett Shadow . These are presumably his pencilled notes in the margins (I found Poe's The Gold Bug reference particularly interesting). Notice also the weird line work such as on the page 375 example below. Somehow, the TVS cave, LUE, et al, location at the headwaters region of the Purgatoire River is conflated with the events of the proposed labor conspiracy shenanigans in TSS and somehow related.

To answer your question, dog, there are many general allegations about the Cave in TVS from many sources, but really, no particular convincing testimony about its details, IMO. Lots of innuendos from tall tale references.

However, lets toss some fuel to the LUE conspiracy fire. At the end of TVS , Miller adds two "FINIS" pages. I say "conspiracy" because of the unusual inking in of numerous lower case letter o's on those pages. Not all letter o's, but lots of them. Why? A word code? Some sort of Baconian cypher? A geometrical pattern? A map overlay? Ha ha.

I think you and cuz are doing some excellent work lately with the Masonic connections to the cartoon map. As you know, my bottom line on Miller is that he was a disinformationist for the Organization.

View attachment 2184378
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View attachment 2184381

"Valley of Secrets....."
Fun fact. Scottish Rite Lodges (Northern Masonic Jurisdiction) are called "Valleys".

Blog - What are Scottish Rite Valleys?

32° Scottish Rite Freemasonry, NMJ is comprised of 15 states. Each state is broken down into local chapters or “Valleys.”

scottishritenmj.org

 

[mdog]

Yup. But it seems Von Mueller got the map himself in a more primitave form, at least according to that video above. The more primitave version of the map (from the video above) CAN BE Masonic, but it is vague. It can be non-Masonic just as easy.
Id say, based on that video and my minimal research, there's a very good chance it was Von Mueller himself who made that map Masonic.

Here's a link to The Scarlet Shadow. If you have time, check out chapter LIII starting on page 370. If you read it, read it "thinking Masonically".

The Scarlet Shadow

www.google.com

 

[cuzimloony]

Here's a link to The Scarlet Shadow. If you have time, check out chapter LIII starting on page 370. If you read it, read it "thinking Masonically".

The Scarlet Shadow

www.google.com

Oh boy...... I tried and I will try again. It's very flowery and my brain gets lost in adjectives about three lines into one description So far, I see nothing Masonic.......

 

[mdog]

Oh boy...... I tried and I will try again. It's very flowery and my brain gets lost in adjectives about three lines into one description So far, I see nothing Masonic.......

Right off, the mention of Ophir caught my attention. Ophir is where Solomon obtained his great wealth, and when I think of Solomon, I think of his Temple.

After the explosion revealed the entrance to the Cave of Gold, the three men entered the cave where they saw indented hieroglyphics and creatures in bas relief on the walls. I didn't noticed that the text mentioned whether the cave entrance was on the east or west side of the canyon, but the canyon went north-south so I'm guessing the entrance was on either the west wall or the east wall. As they advanced into the cave, they noticed a large alter in the middle of the cave but slightly toward the back. If the cave was slightly toward the back, why would they even mention it? In one of my recent post I posted information that said the Lodge alter, in the York Rite, was in the center of the Lodge but slightly to the east. On the LUE map, the small triangle, that I think represents the Lodge alter, is in the center of the quadrant, but slightly to the east. The stone alter in the cave is describe as over 4 feet high and almost big enough to dance on. The top of the alter was also stained with blood. The Sacrificial Alter, outside of Solomon's Temple is 4 1/2 feet high and 7 1/2 feet square. When the three men advanced further into the cave, they discovered a corridor with gold covering the floor and gold on the walls of the cave. Inside Solomon's Temple, the wooden floors and the walls are covered with gold.

Something that surprises me is that von Mueller spent so much time researching and searching for this cave. The gold in the cave, if the story is even true, was discovered during the early 1900's. I think that what would happen next is that the three explorers would file a claim and clean the place out. Yet, von Mueller wrote the Treasure of the Valley of Secrets and distributed the story to the public, just like he did the LUE map.

 

[mdog]

The Bronze Altar Of Sacrifice - Traditional Catechism

The Bronze Altar Of Sacrifice - Traditional Catechism

www.traditionalcatechism.com

 

[cuzimloony]

Right off, the mention of Ophir caught my attention. Ophir is where Solomon obtained his great wealth, and when I think of Solomon, I think of his Temple.

After the explosion revealed the entrance to the Cave of Gold, the three men entered the cave where they saw indented hieroglyphics and creatures in bas relief on the walls. I didn't noticed that the text mentioned whether the cave entrance was on the east or west side of the canyon, but the canyon went north-south so I'm guessing the entrance was on either the west wall or the east wall. As they advanced into the cave, they noticed a large alter in the middle of the cave but slightly toward the back. If the cave was slightly toward the back, why would they even mention it? In one of my recent post I posted information that said the Lodge alter, in the York Rite, was in the center of the Lodge but slightly to the east. On the LUE map, the small triangle, that I think represents the Lodge alter, is in the center of the quadrant, but slightly to the east. The stone alter in the cave is describe as over 4 feet high and almost big enough to dance on. The top of the alter was also stained with blood. The Sacrificial Alter, outside of Solomon's Temple is 4 1/2 feet high and 7 1/2 feet square. When the three men advanced further into the cave, they discovered a corridor with gold covering the floor and gold on the walls of the cave. Inside Solomon's Temple, the wooden floors and the walls are covered with gold.

Something that surprises me is that von Mueller spent so much time researching and searching for this cave. The gold in the cave, if the story is even true, was discovered during the early 1900's. I think that what would happen next is that the three explorers would file a claim and clean the place out. Yet, von Mueller wrote the Treasure of the Valley of Secrets and distributed the story to the public, just like he did the LUE map.

I didnt see that. Maybe I read the wrong part. I read stuff about Dego Italians and Zepplins.
So.....upon hearing "Solomons Temple."
My opinion, not the opinion of Masonry per se, is that anything about King Solomons Temple is ALLEGORICAL, and not literal. Its all symbolic.
Seeing as how dimensions inside this cave line up with Temple dimensions, Id say it too is an allagory, not a real, physical place

But what do I know I've only been reading this for a week or so and its a lot to take in
I dont know what to think of any of this. It doesn't look like a map. There are clearly Masonic symbols, but in my experience, those symbols are to teach you about deep inner truths, not finding gold. So, those symbols have been adapted to a new meaning, maybe, that I need more time to think about. Drinking from a firehose......
How does this book relate to the LUE? Does it even, or is this a side-topic? Mueller has other books. Do those relate to the LUE too? I do see the mark-ups he made on his 'finito' some of which remind me of his blazing star.
Again....a lot to take in.
Feels like a game.......
Not by you guys.....but by him.

 

[mdog]

I didnt see that. Maybe I read the wrong part. I read stuff about Dego Italians and Zepplins.
So.....upon hearing "Solomons Temple."
My opinion, not the opinion of Masonry per se, is that anything about King Solomons Temple is ALLEGORICAL, and not literal. Its all symbolic.
Seeing as how dimensions inside this cave line up with Temple dimensions, Id say it too is an allagory, not a real, physical place

But what do I know I've only been reading this for a week or so and its a lot to take in
I dont know what to think of any of this. It doesn't look like a map. There are clearly Masonic symbols, but in my experience, those symbols are to teach you about deep inner truths, not finding gold. So, those symbols have been adapted to a new meaning, maybe, that I need more time to think about. Drinking from a firehose......
How does this book relate to the LUE? Does it even, or is this a side-topic? He has other books. Do those relate to the LUE too? I do see the mark-ups he made on his 'finito' some of which remind me of his blazing star.
Again....a lot to take in.
Feels like a game.......
Not by you guys.....but by him.

I never knew the man. I don't know that he was playing a game, but it seems like he was looking for something but didn't want to come right out and say what it was.

The LUE map has been around for over 70 years and many people have speculated about it's meaning. It would be helpful to know who created it and why. I suppose there are people who know it's history, but they aren't talking .....not on Tnet, anyway.

 

[point hunter]

I never knew the man. I don't know that he was playing a game, but it seems like he was looking for something but didn't want to come right out and say what it was.

The LUE map has been around for over 70 years and many people have speculated about it's meaning. It would be helpful to know who created it and why. I suppose there are people who know it's history, but they aren't talking .....not on Tnet, anyway.

I agree that Mr. Mueller wasn't playing a game. I think he was looking for an entrance to Ophir. I personally think the mines are real and possibly located in the southwest. There are trackers that have hinted to this through the years. IMHO, Ophir became Cibola, which became the Spanish trails. The KGC came along and added their twist on everything. The Aztec codex shows 7 caves if I remember right. I think there are at least 7 entrances scattered throghout New Mexico, Colorado, Utah, and Arizona. Think about the mismash of trails across these states and ask yourself why?

 

[mdog]

I agree that Mr. Mueller wasn't playing a game. I think he was looking for an entrance to Ophir. I personally think the mines are real and possibly located in the southwest. There are trackers that have hinted to this through the years. IMHO, Ophir became Cibola, which became the Spanish trails. The KGC came along and added their twist on everything. The Aztec codex shows 7 caves if I remember right. I think there are at least 7 entrances scattered throghout New Mexico, Colorado, Utah, and Arizona. Think about the mismash of trails across these states and ask yourself why?

That crossed my mind. The Scarlet Shadow was written well before von Mueller was born, and, if the story about the Cave of Gold was true, the gold would have been cleaned out, well before von Mueller moved to Segundo. If that's the case, maybe he was looking for something else at the site. You mention trails crossing the southwest states, maybe he was looking for a specific type of carving or stone monument.

 

[cuzimloony]

I agree that Mr. Mueller wasn't playing a game. I think he was looking for an entrance to Ophir. I personally think the mines are real and possibly located in the southwest. There are trackers that have hinted to this through the years. IMHO, Ophir became Cibola, which became the Spanish trails. The KGC came along and added their twist on everything. The Aztec codex shows 7 caves if I remember right. I think there are at least 7 entrances scattered throghout New Mexico, Colorado, Utah, and Arizona. Think about the mismash of trails across these states and ask yourself why?

Aztec codicies, leading to Colorado, Utah, NM and AZ?
Im going to have to claim ignorance here (surprise surprise). If you don't mind, can you explain that a bit.
I have a giant 3D head here at one of "my" sites and markmar gave the explanation that it was Aztec (it looks nothing at all like Aztec stoneowrk) and Ive been a bit interested in this Aztec thing since. You're the second person to bring up Aztecs very far away from Tenochtitlan.
I admit.... I a bit skeptical, but Im hoping someone will attempt to convince me otherwise.
Is the idea that the LUE leads to Aztec gold?

 

[sdcfia]

Aztec codicies, leading to Colorado, Utah, NM and AZ?
. . .

Historia Tolteca-Chichimeca

Chicomoztoc, the original seven caves of Aztlan, from which the Aztecs migrated 1024 CE from the American Southwest south to Tenotchtitlan. Notice the bearded white men?

 

[cuzimloony]

View attachment 2184612
Historia Tolteca-Chichimeca

Chicomoztoc, the original seven caves of Aztlan, from which the Aztecs migrated from the American Southwest south to Tenotchtitlan. Notice the bearded white men?

That says Historia Tolteca and from a brief review, explains the history of Toltecs, not Aztecs, although it was written by Aztecs. The Toltecs were almost extinct, if not completely extinct, when the Aztecs got to Tenochtitlan. They are 2 different peoples. So....Im confused

I dont see gold in the picture unfortunately. The Aztecs prized feathers, which I do see in the picture.
So, IF the Aztecs came from the American southwest, then I have a couple questions. We have zero recognized Aztec sculptures here in the US (well, maybe this head is....but it looks nothing like real authenticated Aztec sculptures in Mx), so...... between AZ and Tenochtitlan somebody had to have taught them how to make sculptures, pyramids and the major construction projects they engaged in. Who? We, as far as I know, dont have any Aztec pyramid false-starts like we do in Egypt. Egypt is replete with half built pyramids they had to stop construction on because their geometry was off. Again, as far as I know, the Aztecs went from zero to perfect in short order.
Who showed them?
Someone would've had to have introduced them to ripping hearts out for rain between here and there too. Who? Honest question!

We can follow European, or Chinese or, etc.. construction tech and see how they progressed from huts to castles. Aztecs went from zero, to pyramids bigger than Egypts in a very short time. Who taught them?
Does learning about pyramid construction just occur to a race when travelling large distances? Why didnt they build pyramids here? Why dont other natives ingegenous to North America rip out hearts for rain?

This isnt sarcasm....its just how my brain fleshes things out. Sorry if this sounds offensive or rude. I dont mean it to be. Just trying to reason my way through this......I WANT it to make sense.

 

[point hunter]

That says Historia Tolteca. The Toltecs were almost extinct, if not completely extinct, when the Aztecs got to Tenochtitlan. They are 2 different peoples. So....Im confused
Also.....that Codex is written on European pape and I dont see gold in the picture. The Aztecs prized feathers, which I do see in the picture.

Do we have documentation, even if speculative, that suggests the Aztecs are from the American southwest?

Edit: doing some reading on jstor and I am seeing some scholars suggest southwest US as a possible starting point (at the same time they're saying that Aztec sorcerers were able to go to Aztlan as birds, then transform back to humans when there....and that they're immortal in Atzlan..............)
Which part is real and where do I stop belief? Which part is true? Dont all cultures have a creation myth? Women from ribs anyone? Immortal in the garden?

I’m not an Aztec historian by any means, but they supposedly migrated south from the caves to Mexico. Now as far as the mystical things, buyer beware. Many are made up. I’m not saying weird stuff doesn’t happen in the field, it does. But seriously, most can be explained if looked at rationally. You will find creation myths and most seem to refer to the group emerging from the earth/caves.

 

[sdcfia]

.....
Which part is real and where do I stop belief? Which part is true? Dont all cultures have a creation myth? Women from ribs anyone? Immortal in the garden?

You tend to lean pretty much at the same tilt that I find myself, kinda similar to Greek Skepticism - how can we be certain anything is "true"? Humans are shockingly gullible as a group. Read my signature line.

Since this thread conjectures on "treasure" topics, the LUE in particular, the debates always seek some sort of bedrock truth from which to begin and proceed. The LUE doesn't really have one of those, at least one that is palatable to all. Notwithstanding the Nazi silliness and other recent TNet-based theories, the cartoon map and the enigmatic Miller are about all we have to work with. Since my working model supports the Organization Explanation (most well-publicized lost treasures in the USA are all cover stories for a unified network of private caches), I have to wonder if the LUE is in that group too. mdog's mapping work and links to "sacred knowledge" fit the modus operandi of the Organization. Can't prove any of it, of course, but it's the most logical approach when you look at the big picture, and the biggest picture is always the most telling for all curious topics, IMO.

The 16th century Europeans came over here with pre-conceived ideas about legendary riches in the New World. Local legends supported those ideas and soon there was a focus in the American Southwest trying to locate the Seven Cities of Cibola, which sounded a lot like the Seven Caves of Chicomoztoc. Supposedly, all efforts failed to locate these prizes - at least that was the published news. Others speculate that some very rich sites were actually found and secured. Quien sabe? I prefer the second conclusion.

Bottom line with the LUE enigma, IMO: 1) it's all coded knowledge, part of a larger picture with all the loot still controlled by it's owners; or 2) the whole LUE shebang itself is Pure-D bullshit, dreamed up by the trickster Miller.