Lost Dutchman in the Superstitions? What is wrong with this picture?

Re: Battle of Bloody tanks or Pinole Treaty very long post

This is a very long post, but is mostly not my words so I ask your indulgence;

Here is a map showing Bloody Tanks
http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/topo/arizona/pclmaps-topo-az-miami_copper_belt-1910.jpg
..bottom center; as for sources describing a different location there are several.

Still another important battle took place in January 1864 between Yavapais and Apaches under a leader known as Paramucka. This was the infamous engagement at "Bloody Tanks." Some historians think it happened near what is now the town of Miami (near Globe), Arizona, while others feel it took place in Fish Creek Canyon in the Superstitions.
Native News online, 'this day in history' 1024


This version places the battle in Tonto basin, and that no bodies of the enemy Apaches (Yavapais) were found;

A short time after this he opened the first road into the Northern part of Arizona. While constructing this road in the vicinity of Antelope Mountain, considerable stock was stolen from the people of Wickenburg. The Tonto Apaches had been raiding the ranches in Peeples' Valley and along the Verde, and Walnut Grove and other localities south of Prescott. A large band of them drove off all the stock in Peeples' Valley. While en route to Prescott from Agua Caliente, with his wagon train loaded with flour, which he had ground out in a small mill at Agua Caliente, upon arriving at Peeples' Valley, the settlers insisted that he should send his teams on to Prescott and take command of a volunteer company in a raid against the Apaches. There were about sixty white men. Woolsey dispatched couriers to the chiefs of the Maricopas and Pimas, and each of them joined him at the mouth of the Verde, with thirty warriors from each tribe. They took the trail of the Apaches and followed it into Tonto Basin, where the chief of the Pimas, fearing an ambush, decided to go no further, and withdrew his followers, but the chief of the Maricopas, Juan Chiavria, who was a great friend of Woolsey's, stayed with the whites, with his warriors. They followed this canyon for about three miles when they found themselves surrounded by about four hundred of the Apaches. Knowing that unless diplomacy was resorted to, they would all be massacred, King

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Woolsey got his interpreter, a Yuma Indian who lived on his ranch and had formerly been captured by the Apaches and had acquired their language, to talk to the hostiles. Jack was the orator for the occasion. He talked long and loud, begging them to come down, and assuring them that they would be kindly treated; that they were not there for war, but to make peace. Jack told them that Juan Chiavria of the Maricopas was present, and he, himself, was the chief of the Yumas, and that the three white men were great American captains who came from Washington to make a treaty with them. After many hours of persuasion, the Apaches concluded that they would come down and have a talk. It was arranged that each party should meet in council without arms; the chief of the Maricopas, Jack, King Woolsey, Joe Dye of Los Angeles, and young Lennon, who was the recorder to write down the treaty. The rest of the white men and the Maricopas were left about sixty or seventy yards away, armed with rifles and shotguns, with the understanding that when the fight commenced, they were to take an active part; those armed with shotguns to come to the relief of Woolsey, and the riflemen to fire upon the Apaches on the hills. In this they were supported by the Maricopas. The white men and the Maricopa chief in the council were each armed with two six shooters under their coats. The Apaches, the big chiefs and the little chiefs, numbering about thirty, were seated in a half circle. One of the big chiefs said that he would not sit on the bare ground, so King Woolsey sent off and got a fine scarlet blanket, and seated

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him next to where he himself was standing. The Maricopas had brought a quantity of pinole and tobacco. The pinole was placed on a blanket near by, and the Indians pretended to be smoking the tobacco. After the Apaches were seated and the conference commenced, an Apache Indian entered the council, dragging two lances at his heels; another came with a handful of knives, which were distributed among the hostile savages. Immediately afterward an Indian boy rushed in almost out of breath and told the Apaches that the order from the big chief was for them all to get out of the camp, and they would kill the last one of the whites and the Maricopas. The signal agreed upon by Woolsey and his men for the firing to commence, was for him to put his hand upon his hat. Before the Apaches had time to do anything, Woolsey gave his signal, and, at the same time, shot the Apache chief who was seated upon his blanket. Joe Dye, Young Lennon, the Maricopa chief and Jack did the same, and every bullet found its mark. The shotgun men rushed in and killed every Apache who had come to the council, while those having rifles were picking off the Apaches who were on the hills. After the fight was over, they examined the hills, which were covered with blood, but they found no dead, as it was the invariable custom of the Apaches to carry off their dead and wounded whenever it was practicable for them to do so. Woolsey and his men retraced their steps through the canyon, and not an Indian was in sight. In this fight Woolsey lost only one man. He had warned young Lennon to look out for a lame Apache who had a

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lance, but in the excitement young Lennon had forgotten his warning. The Indian ran him through the body with his lance, and Lennon shot the Indian with his revolver almost at the same time, both dying together. The Apaches received such severe punishment that they were good for some time thereafter.

The above account is given me by Mrs. Baxter, the wife of Judge Baxter of Yuma, who was the wife of King Woolsey, and may be considered the true story of what is known as the "Pinole Treaty," or the massacre at Bloody Tanks.

http://southwest.library.arizona.edu/hav2/body.1_div.10.html

What is common in all versions (that I read) is that Woolsey's force camped at the mouth of the Verde river when they sent for the aid of the Pimas (and Maricopas); the description found in other versions which have them march "around the base of the Superstitions" can be interpreted different ways. The fact that (as far as I could determine) no one has ever found any remains at the place known as "Bloody Tanks"

Just for anyone following this discussion, I certainly cannot claim to be the first to theorize the idea of Peralta massacre being a conflation of different but real incidents. Tom Kollenborn had a good article which is online at:

http://www.superstitionmountain.info/chronicles/2009/08_10_09.html

Good luck and good hunting, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco
 

Re: Lost Dutchman in the Superstitions? What is wrong with this 'picture'?

Gee Roy,

Let's see, whose version of events should I believe? King Woolsey's Widow or maybe The Official Report on the incident? WOW That's a tough one.

I guess I'll have to go with the official report on what happened.

What is common in all versions (that I read) is that Woolsey's force camped at the mouth of the Verde river when they sent for the aid of the Pimas (and Maricopas); the description found in other versions which have them march "around the base of the Superstitions" can be interpreted different ways

It does not say "The Superstition Mountains" it says:

The trail was then taken up afresh, leading around the base of Superstition Mountain and through by the way of Devil's Canon to a point nine miles west of where Globe now stands.

So, NO it cannot be interpreted in different ways. The directions are VERY CLEAR AND SPECIFIC! AROUND THE BASE OF SUPERSTITION MOUNTAIN, AND THROUGH BY THE WAY OF DEVIL'S CANYON TO A POINT ABOUT NINE MILES WEST OF WHERE GLOBE NOW STANDS.

Sorry-Mike
 

Re: Lost Dutchman in the Superstitions? What is wrong with this 'picture'?

Gee, really? How many "official stories" are BS? And, one has to look at who has the official story, don't you think?

I don't understand how you can "pick and choose" who and what is actually "official".

Of course, there's nothing in the desert at area 51, either - take it to the bank, that's the "official" story.

Beth
 

Re: Lost Dutchman in the Superstitions? What is wrong with this 'picture'?

What about the 1879 newspaper account of the two Peralta brothers attacked by Apaches west of the Superstitions? If we accept the whole story of the Peralta Massacre at massacre field, how do you explain the newspaper account which is so different? Thank you in advance;
Oroblanco
 

Re: Lost Dutchman in the Superstitions? What is wrong with this 'picture'?

Beth,

If the Official Account (now known as an After Action Report) is good enough for the Governor of Arizona, it is good enough for me. How the heII do you morph an Apache Battle with Area 51? HAHAHA

Oroblanco said:
What about the 1879 newspaper account of the two Peralta brothers attacked by Apaches west of the Superstitions? If we accept the whole story of the Peralta Massacre at massacre field, how do you explain the newspaper account which is so different? Thank you in advance;
Oroblanco

Roy,

I answered that question before.

To me, it proves what happened before. The Peraltas had mines in the area for about 100-150 years. They were worked only sporadically due to Apache violence. Everybody in the family MUST have known how rich the mines were. If the Waltz story is correct and he, Weiser, and the Peraltas removed $60,000 in gold (when gold was $12 an ounce) in approximately 1870-1872, then those same two Peraltas may have been old enough to have either been in that expedition or at least seen the ore when they got back. I can imagine that they thought the Apache had calmed down somewhat, and they went to check out their family's old mines. When they got to the area, they found that they were wrong about the Apache.

Best-Mike
 

Re: Lost Dutchman in the Superstitions? What is wrong with this 'picture'?

Gully: You posted -->I have said it before (blue in the face), that there are TONS of possibilities, but taking in the BIG PICTURE, and considering all the evidence, the MOST LIKELY scenario is the story that we already have
*************
Is It ???? So far no-one has had any announced success with that Big Picture, right?

Clarify why the last scenario of Mexicans and mestizos working the mine, being slaughtered, except one lone wounded survivor, by marauding Indians, who in turn were slaughtered by others, presumably Apache, doesn't fill in the big picture just as logically as your posted data does. ??


Don Jose de La Mancha
 

Re: Lost Dutchman in the Superstitions? What is wrong with this 'picture'?

gollum said:
Beth,

If the Official Account (now known as an After Action Report) is good enough for the Governor of Arizona, it is good enough for me. How the heII do you morph an Apache Battle with Area 51? HAHAHA

Oroblanco said:
What about the 1879 newspaper account of the two Peralta brothers attacked by Apaches west of the Superstitions? If we accept the whole story of the Peralta Massacre at massacre field, how do you explain the newspaper account which is so different? Thank you in advance;
Oroblanco

Roy,

I answered that question before.

To me, it proves what happened before. The Peraltas had mines in the area for about 100-150 years. They were worked only sporadically due to Apache violence. Everybody in the family MUST have known how rich the mines were. If the Waltz story is correct and he, Weiser, and the Peraltas removed $60,000 in gold (when gold was $12 an ounce) in approximately 1870-1872, then those same two Peraltas may have been old enough to have either been in that expedition or at least seen the ore when they got back. I can imagine that they thought the Apache had calmed down somewhat, and they went to check out their family's old mines. When they got to the area, they found that they were wrong about the Apache.

Best-Mike

your in a diffrent set of mts then .. chicomoztoc if i am correct .. was one of the only native sites to make it threw the YD at about 12,500bc.. this is the brithplace of the 7 tribes it was most likely mined more then 12,000 years ago , they would have made arrow and spear heads and other tools there .. i would much rather hunt them then gold any day .. why more interesting then rocks ,, if you know anything about the chicmoztoc you would know there is evidence thatthe real crystall skulls were made there.. and the fact i found s03 silcon in the area suports the evidence ..

i would love to have a piece of this silcon tested .. its almost pure

i believe these were native American sites before we knew the new world was round .. :coffee2:
 

Re: Lost Dutchman in the Superstitions? What is wrong with this 'picture'?

BB: the only problem with this is that they originated in present day Jerusalem, migrated across the med. to the coasts of France and Spain, "The place of the reeds" (remains of Atlantis) then crossed over to North America, fought and survived their way across America down into present Mexico, where they finally settled down. Question , are they the descendants of the Lost Tribe??

Don Jose de La Mancha
 

Re: Lost Dutchman in the Superstitions? What is wrong with this 'picture'?

Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp said:
Gully: You posted -->I have said it before (blue in the face), that there are TONS of possibilities, but taking in the BIG PICTURE, and considering all the evidence, the MOST LIKELY scenario is the story that we already have
*************
Is It ???? So far no-one has had any announced success with that Big Picture, right?

Clarify why the last scenario of Mexicans and mestizos working the mine, being slaughtered, except one lone wounded survivor, by marauding Indians, who in turn were slaughtered by others, presumably Apache, doesn't fill in the big picture just as logically as your posted data does. ??


Don Jose de La Mancha

YES! None of the more esoteric theories have proven themselves worth the brain time either. In the face of everything, with the evidence we have, the story as we already know it is the most likely.

Just because nobody has found a treasure doesn't mean it is more likely somewhere else. We need something more than supposition and a good imagination to take us away from the Supers.

Best-Mike
 

Re: Lost Dutchman in the Superstitions? What is wrong with this 'picture'?

gollum said:
Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp said:
Gully: You posted -->I have said it before (blue in the face), that there are TONS of possibilities, but taking in the BIG PICTURE, and considering all the evidence, the MOST LIKELY scenario is the story that we already have
*************
Is It ???? So far no-one has had any announced success with that Big Picture, right?

Clarify why the last scenario of Mexicans and mestizos working the mine, being slaughtered, except one lone wounded survivor, by marauding Indians, who in turn were slaughtered by others, presumably Apache, doesn't fill in the big picture just as logically as your posted data does. ??


Don Jose de La Mancha

YES! None of the more esoteric theories have proven themselves worth the brain time either. In the face of everything, with the evidence we have, the story as we already know it is the most likely.

Just because nobody has found a treasure doesn't mean it is more likely somewhere else. We need something more than supposition and a good imagination to take us away from the Supers.

Best-Mike

On top of that, I'd say it's not a stretch to believe that things of monetary value HAVE been found and taken out of the Superstition Mountains over the years.
 

Re: Lost Dutchman in the Superstitions? What is wrong with this 'picture'?

Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp said:
BB: the only problem with this is that they originated in present day Jerusalem, migrated across the med. to the coasts of France and Spain, "The place of the reeds" (remains of Atlantis) then crossed over to North America, fought and survived their way across America down into present Mexico, where they finally settled down. Question , are they the descendants of the Lost Tribe??

Don Jose de La Mancha

we all are...lol

the great flood took anyone that was not ...lol


the point i was trying to make is if the Apache had any real claim on the sites then why not make the claim legal and fight it out in court,you dont see that happending because they have a legal claim or evidence to suport it ..the fact is finders keepers as long as the evidence is there to prove it when it needs to be there .,...
 

Re: Lost Dutchman in the Superstitions? What is wrong with this 'picture'?

gollum said:
Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp said:
Gully: You posted -->I have said it before (blue in the face), that there are TONS of possibilities, but taking in the BIG PICTURE, and considering all the evidence, the MOST LIKELY scenario is the story that we already have
*************
Is It ???? So far no-one has had any announced success with that Big Picture, right?

Clarify why the last scenario of Mexicans and mestizos working the mine, being slaughtered, except one lone wounded survivor, by marauding Indians, who in turn were slaughtered by others, presumably Apache, doesn't fill in the big picture just as logically as your posted data does. ??


Don Jose de La Mancha

YES! None of the more esoteric theories have proven themselves worth the brain time either. In the face of everything, with the evidence we have, the story as we already know it is the most likely.

Just because nobody has found a treasure doesn't mean it is more likely somewhere else. We need something more than supposition and a good imagination to take us away from the Supers.

Best-Mike

well said mike .. the evidence dose exist and its just a matter of haveing the right skills and ablities to under stand it and decode it and put all the pieces back in the right order ...

many mis under stand the skill level of the papal order they not only had the best of training and resorces they were selected from a early age and rised to serve the church ...

often past down from father to son and threw blood lines
 

Re: Lost Dutchman in the Superstitions? What is wrong with this 'picture'?

HI Cubber: you posted ->On top of that, I'd say it's not a stretch to believe that things of monetary value HAVE been found and taken out of the Superstition Mountains over the years.
******************
Absolutely no-one can logically disagree with that, not even me ! sniff, but credited to whom. when. where, both in recovery and orig. placement.?

Just make sure that it is YOU that gets the golden ring, I just loooove rich friends.

Don Jose de La Mancha
 

Re: Lost Dutchman in the Superstitions? What is wrong with this 'picture'?

BB Notice the reference to the place of the reeds, and the sheer coincidence of Atlantis /Aztlan being spelled almost the same and pronounced almost the same? The place of the reeds was the coastal land regions that were shallowly submerged at the same time as Aztlan (Atlantis).

Now let's get to the subject of the Jesuits hiding anything in the Superstitions. While the Spanish were mining up to Canada, I have never heard of them in the Superstitions, which, in itself, means nothing, I agree.

NO trail has ever surfaced, nor evidence that any major mining effort occurred in the Superstitions. The tales and trails would have easily been found by the many searchers using satt, and google type for their searches.

Gully has found tales in the Tumacacori area, but not in the Superstitions.

Don Jose de La Mancha (El pesto )
 

Re: Lost Dutchman in the Superstitions? What is wrong with this 'picture'?

Hello Jose,

there are many theories about the lost tribes of Israel the internet is full of them , i can only repeat what i have read recently,

in the British museum are a collection of 23,000 cuneiform tablets and a large obelisk that was bought there from the middle east during the late 1800's they were put in storage and literally forgotten about until quite recently, they were believed to be Assyrian records or receipts,

but within the last few years it was found they contain the story of the lost tribes (up to a point) and tell of the people being sent or leaving that area, after the Assyrian invasion these are still being studied by Jewish scholars from the various universities in Israel along with a great deal of those universities own documents,

they now believe the the parting of the red sea was in fact a place in northern Syria called the red marsh a large area which floods quickly at regular intervals, and not what is called the red sea that most believe,

the large body of water was what we now call the black sea, the people moving north and west taking many years, the tribe's estimated to between 125,000 and 400,000 people some moving north and the majority west, those moving west making up what are now the north European Jew's
the total number of Jews at this time being 5,000,000

i have read there is quite a lot of geological evidence at both places including the large body of water they crossed which is referred to, also the other marsh is thought to be the area of what is now south west France,

whilst those heading north and north east are what are now the pashtuns, i have included the following article, and lets just say they are a bit pissed about it, hehehe,

it is known that 2 of those amongst the pilgrim fathers who sailed from plymouth were Jew's and there names are known and many people in north America can be traced back through their DNA to these two people,

there is a great deal on the net about this but much of what the various archies and Jewish scholars believe is not fully pr oven, but the distances and timelines match, (so they say ), but it does make interesting reading,

copied article below


An Indian geneticist has taken blood samples from the Pashtun Afridi tribe in Lucknow, Northern India, to Israel where she will spend the next 12 months comparing DNA with samples with those of Israeli Jews.

The samples were taken in Lucknow's Malihabad area because it was regarded as the only place safe enough to conduct such a controversial project for Muslims.

Shanaz Ali a senior research fellow, will lead the study at the Technion Israel Institute of Technology in Tel Aviv.

There are an estimated 40 million Pashtuns around the world including more than 14 million in Afghanistan and 28 million in Pakistan, mainly in the North West Frontier Province and Tribal areas but also with a strong presence in Karachi.

Many have grown up with stories of their people being "Children of Israel". According to legend, they are descended from the Ephraim tribe which was driven out of Israel by the Assyrian invasion in around 700BC.

Evidence of ancient Jewish settlement has been found in Herat, close to Afghanistan's border with Iran, where a graveyard contains tombs inscribed in Hebrew. The Afghan capital Kabul also has a centuries-old synagogue which has long been abandoned.

Navras Aafreedi, a leading researcher on the Lost Tribes of Israel, said the DNA investigation could have major modern repercussions.

"It could be seen as scientific validation of traditional belief about the Israelite origin of [Pashtuns] and can have interesting ramifications for Muslim-Jew relations in particular and the world at large," he said. as the pashtuns are the original Taliban

John
 

Re: Lost Dutchman in the Superstitions? What is wrong with this 'picture'?

BB

the crystal skulls were found to be a modern fraud quite a few years ago, the original skull was was bought by the guy who claimed to have found it in Mexico, he obtained it from an antique dealer in Paris (France) who still had the receipt he had written for tax purposes, and admited he had 13 made, in a factory in germany, one with a separate jaw and the others without, due to the cost,
when tested with an electron microscope they were found to be made from a type of crystal that is only found in one part of the world, and that is in Italy, the firm in germany were also tracked down and admitted they had made them,

John
 

Re: Lost Dutchman in the Superstitions? What is wrong with this 'picture'?

John,

Nice post.

Hard to believe that anyone is still touting Crystal Skull stories, when the information you have posted is available to any casual researcher into the facts.

All they need to do is enter "crystal skull legend" into their search engine and read the bad news. And yet, here comes bb, a self proclaimed guru of research and facts, regurgitating the same tired fairy tales.

Here is an article from the Smithsonian: http://www.archaeology.org/0805/etc/indy.html

Take care,

Joe
 

Re: Lost Dutchman in the Superstitions? What is wrong with this 'picture'?

Hi Jose / Joe

thanks guys, i actually read both the articles sometime ago and not on the net, although the second part of the tribes post was from there after i had gone to try and find out the names, i often read things but don't take note of the the author, or who's research it is,
but I'm glad you enjoyed them,

Joe, as a couple of the guys on here know I'm planning on moving to Mexico (i had hoped to be there by now) but for various reasons have had to put it off for a while, but once I'm out there I'll try and get to the LDM rendezvous hopefully next year to meet one or two of you guys,

PS i think i would prefer armadillo to garlic !!!,

John
 

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