Lord Archibald Hamilton on 1715 fleet salvage...in Florida AND the Bahamas ?

[Smithbrown]

I'm really curious now, Ivan, because everything I can find on the death of Henry Jennings suggests that he either died at home or in a Spanish prison, which is pretty hard luck if he was such a committed Jacobite, since the Old Pretender had moved to Madrid after France signed up to a peace treaty with Britain. Now this is not a subject I have done much orginal research on, except for helping a couple of pirate ships with their cannon inquiries and I must say I have been much impressed by the rigour of their historical approach. Anyway, sources and evidence would be nice.

I think there is a world of difference to signing up to a legimate and legal business of privateering in time of war with your locals, no matter what their political views and carrying out clandestine correspondence with traitors. At best you could lose your estates, at worst your head.

I am not sure if this is of any help to the wider audience discussing this particular topic, except there is wide room for wide interpretations of the "known" facts.

 

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[LM]

I suggest the place for information would be in the Vatican archives. Dell

OK, I appreciate the bold, but where might one start in the Vatican archives to find something that lends even slight plausibility to this scenario?
Is this something that is actually in the archives that we know about, or is it a psychic vision of what may be in the archives?

The reason I ask is because wild goose chases almost always look and sound all the same. There's just too much hard fact that's gone uninvestigated to engage in pie-eyed, baseless speculations.

Point me in the right direction; if its there, I'll find it.

 

[Dell Winders]

I cannot argue with your logic, but if the ship is in the Bahamas, then you are already on a wild goose chase. Dell

 

[SADS 669]

It makes no sense whatsoever.

Why in gods name would a ship that just got its ass kicked so badly as to need emergency harbor- having just wittnessed the majority of its fleet reduced to rubble- turn back out into open water and head for the Bahamas when St. Augustine was not only basically equidistant (St Augustine actually a bit closer), but allowed for a coastline bearing that would've permitted the crew to survive should the ship break up in the meantime?

No chance a captain with a ship in that condition, having endured what they just endured, already within sight of the undeveloped coast but within a days sail to a major friendly port, is going to turn his ship- in such bad condition that it's going to break up upon arrival, should this 'theory' be true- back out into open waters and try to make the islands.

No chance.

The only possibility that allows for this is that the ship turned to open seas during the storm, lost contact with the fleet, survived the hurricane and appraised the islands as being closer than St. Augustine, however in order for this to be the case, for it to have sunk within Bahamian Territory after surviving the crossing from Florida, there would have been survivors. It's a virtual certainty that the historical record would reflect this, which it does not.

LM

They would have had no choice if the storm backed and blew them still floating East
Just a thought

 

[ivan salis]

the Spanish hung Jennings * for restarting his pirating ways -- he used Spanish money to help fund his jacobite friends in Scotland * against the English.-- athought both Jennings and the Spanish were catholics -- pirating was not over looked due to religion.

 

[Smithbrown]

Stupid and unlucky- bad combination for a pirate!

 

[Jolly Mon]

I think we can all safely say that the treasure evidence from Canaveral proves somewhat conclusively that the fleet was at least partially disintegrated during the storm. I just can't envision any possible scenario where a captain of a sinking ship, having just endured a storm *that* brutal and already on a coastline bearing, turns to open water and goes for the Bahamas rather than St Aug.

On the 1641 Plate Fleet, Villavicencio was off St. Augustine but thought he was in the Northern Bahamas.
His reasoning was probably that if the ship could make the 400 miles (he thought) to St Augustine, it was good to make the 800 to Puerto Rico. His decision would certainly have been different had he realized that he was actually 2000 miles away from PR and literally sitting right off St. Augustine.

He did that because he was very disoriented and had literally no idea where he was. Given the route of the 1715 fleet and where they were when the storm hit, it's extremely unlikely that was the case for any of their captains.

I am not trying to beat a dead horse here, once again I think the scenario unlikely...but...

A ship that was able to survive the storm by keeping off the lee shore of Florida would almost certainly not be on a "coastline bearing", at least not after the storm...I don't know if you are a sailor, but a skipper would have had two options once the NE winds started whipping up...close hauled on a starboard tack or close hauled on a port tack. Running under bare poles would have been suicidal. Since the fleet was probably within a very few miles of the Florida coast when the storm hit, a port tack might very well have allowed the fleet to survive...but turning southeast back into the Bahama Channel went against conventional wisdom...it was almost certainly the smart move, though.

As far as Villlavicencio is concerned, Concepcion was not off St. Augustine when the storm abated. She was very near Lat. 32...her longitude is anyone's guess. The disaster simply shows how much the fleet was scattered by the storm...and how this scatter might well affect where the ships eventually wound-up.

 

[ivan salis]

the 1715 fleet broke up into two different fleets * prior to the main storm hitting them --the slower heavily loaded treasure vessels -- 8 vessels in one fleet and 3 plus the griffon in a different grouping ---all 5 of Ubilla's fleet --plus the two major treasure vessels from Echeverz's fleet and the dutch prize vessel "Olandeisa" * where together --since Ubilla was in overall command of the "royal treasure vessels" he ordered Echeverz and the two "royal treasure ships" in his fleet to stick with him and his fleet , Echeverz also took 1 small vessel along with him -- since the griffon was not "officially" part of the Spanish 1715 treasure fleet but was forced to travel along with the fleet or "stay in port" for 2 weeks after they departed to prevent "leaks" to pirates or treasure fleet "raiders" -- once the bad weather started to fall upon them however the griffons capt said screw hanging around with these slow Spanish vessels when there is bad weather brewing --I'm splitting on my own course --and that he did about 1 1/2 days before the main storm hit -- three other vessels from Echerevz's fleet left about 1 day before the storm hit -- they were the Nao Conception , the French price vessel known as "El Ciervo" and the tobacco hauling Nao know as the San Migual --this is known by the testimony of the pilot major of the fleet given in Havana , Cuba --when he was questioned as to what occurred to the "missing vessels -- salmon later stated that 9 vessels are wrecked with 2 of the "galleons" missing -- Echeverz's fleet was called the "galleons de terra firme" -- since by the time salmon made his report word of the conception sinking near the cape was known because of the 4 men who were found on the shore of the cape having floated on a hatch cover for 2 days was known --so the 8 vessels and the conceptions fate was known --but the French prize vessel and the tobacco haulers fate was not --however salmon said of the "of the two missing vessels there ius little doubt that they are thought to have sank in the high seas --because wreckage of a large vessel or vessels was found on the (shore north / north shore -- translation issues possible ) of St Augustine..

 

[LM]

I am not trying to beat a dead horse here, once again I think the scenario unlikely...but...

A ship that was able to survive the storm by keeping off the lee shore of Florida would almost certainly not be on a "coastline bearing", at least not after the storm...I don't know if you are a sailor, but a skipper would have had two options once the NE winds started whipping up...close hauled on a starboard tack or close hauled on a port tack. Running under bare poles would have been suicidal. Since the fleet was probably within a very few miles of the Florida coast when the storm hit, a port tack might very well have allowed the fleet to survive...but turning southeast back into the Bahama Channel went against conventional wisdom...it was almost certainly the smart move, though.

As far as Villlavicencio is concerned, Concepcion was not off St. Augustine when the storm abated. She was very near Lat. 32...her longitude is anyone's guess. The disaster simply shows how much the fleet was scattered by the storm...and how this scatter might well affect where the ships eventually wound-up.

I don't consider it 'beating a dead horse' at all.
I absolute love this kind of discussion. Brainstorming through the different scenarios and appraising them for likelihood is as important in TH'ing as a metal detector.

I'll dig up my source on Villlavicencio this evening and transcribe the passage if need be. I do distinctly recall him being put near St. Augustine while thinking he was looking at the Bahamas- after the blow- but I don't know the footnote to that, so I may have to dig deeper. Either way, primary source on that will be incoming this evening.

 

[SADS 669]

LM,

What was the direction of the storm, if it was a 2nd half of the season storm that went predominantly south to north ( spooled up below Cuba) tailing winds wiould blow anything still floating west to east guaranteed. If it was a Cape Verde storm that goes predominantly east west the tailing winds would certainly blow the floaters north west as it hits land.

I don't know the storms path at all, whoever does could guide as to where the "after the eye" winds blew anything not already on the bottom. Sailors fighting for their lives can be unbelievably inventive when it comes to,plugging leaks and not going ashore as you know.

 

[LM]

Jolly: Treasures of the Spanish Main, JC Fine. 2006 Lyons Press.

LM,

What was the direction of the storm, if it was a 2nd half of the season storm that went predominantly south to north ( spooled up below Cuba) tailing winds wiould blow anything still floating west to east guaranteed. If it was a Cape Verde storm that goes predominantly east west the tailing winds would certainly blow the floaters north west as it hits land.

I'm sure there's some scientific way to determine from what direction the storm came in in the early 18th century, although I have no idea what that method may be nor if one has ever been done.
You have to consider that we're accustomed to this:

They had this.

Not to mention tons and tons of stuff occured in their world that would dominate our 24 hour news cycle for a week if it happened now, yet went entirely undocumented or very lightly documented back then.

 

[SADS 669]

Jolly: Treasures of the Spanish Main, JC Fine. 2006 Lyons Press.

I'm sure there's some scientific way to determine from what direction the storm came in in the early 18th century, although I have no idea what that method may be nor if one has ever been done.
You have to consider that we're accustomed to this:

They had this.

Not to mention tons and tons of stuff occured in their world that would dominate our 24 hour news cycle for a week if it happened now, yet went entirely undocumented or very lightly documented back then.

LM the 1715 weather forecaster, I love it dde0aseriously, good point about the storm and lack of info, my guess would be for a straight north one from below cuba it is too late for the ones that glance off the upper Bahamas and head for the Carolina's.

I do think if anything was still floating with no way of making headway after the eye passed it went east with the very worst winds of the storm Do we know if the hurricane was a monster storm like Andrew or not?

 

[Jolly Mon]

LM,

Headed out and don't have much time to post but,




Also check out Peter Earle's work, The Wreck of the Almiranta. I don't have my copy handy, but I believe the chapter in question is titled "Shipwreck". Earle lists primary sources for his information.

Concepcion was at Lat 30 N when the storm HIT. She was arriving at the Latitude of Bermuda (32.2 N or so) when the storm abated two days later...

 

[ivan salis]

there is a great article here at T net --known as "the wind, the wind" where the location that the 1715 fleet storm came from is debated by several good minds --quite a good if a bit long read.

 

[Jolly Mon]

From A Universal History... by George Sale, 1764

 

[Jolly Mon]

From Travels in the Confederation, 1783- 1784, by Johann Schoeph

 

[Salvor6]

Great research Jolly Mon. You must have a lot of free time.

 

[Jolly Mon]

there is a great article here at T net --known as "the wind, the wind" where the location that the 1715 fleet storm came from is debated by several good minds --quite a good if a bit long read.

Hey, Ivan, I can't find that thread...are you sure that was the title?
It seems like I remember coming to the conclusion that the storm was probably moving more or less due west, but I can't remember why I came to that conclusion...LOL

 

[ivan salis]

it was a quite old one --the old hands here debated the 1715 fleet storms strength , direction and location it came from based on old historical Spanish records from cuba and st Augustine from the time period.

most thought it came from off Africa == slipped between cuba and the bahama's and then turned northward and walked up the florida coastline----- a day later a strong tailing storm (or back wall of the same hurricane possibly) struck as well .

 

[aquanut]

Hey, Ivan, I can't find that thread...are you sure that was the title?
It seems like I remember coming to the conclusion that the storm was probably moving more or less due west, but I can't remember why I came to that conclusion...LOL

That thread was started by Cornelius. Great discussion,but unfortunately was dropped with all the other threads started by Cornelius when he was banned from Treasurenet.