Looking for KGC experts to Host new Discovery Channel series

[dog the treasure hunter]

I say start the show now. I want to see the interviews of the possible KGC Treasure hunters. There ideals,plans,where they would like to hunt,their team. I want to see how you guys go about who you select. Maybe pick 5 teams. The Central middle Mississippi river region team, the Northeast region team, the Southeast region team, Northwest region team, the Southwest region team. Lots of material to keep the show going. You get to see different tactics and teamwork,and you get to see what was going on in each region at the time. Like spies and sabotage in the Northeast.

 

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[Texas Jay]

Very interesting, Texas Jay.

I'm curious to know how you find any relevance of the Fisher court battle for the shipwreck Nuestra Senora de Atocha to a court case against the U.S. Government over ownership of Secret Depositories within the boundaries of United States, made by a Secret Society formed during the civil war time period and sworn to promote and uphold the ideals of the Confederacy...whose assets were surrendered to the U.S. Government at the end of the Civil War?

Please elaborate.

The relevance between the Fisher case and found KGC depositories can be easily stated by two words which were the basis of Fisher's case against the State of Florida - "Finders-Keepers".
Members of other secret societies, such as the Masons, the Knights of Pythias, the I.O.O.F., also believed in the "ideals of the Confederacy" and you didn't see the Feds seize any of their assets, did you?
And, if you knew your KGC history, you'd know that the organization was formed in 1854, long before the Civil War started in 1861.


~Texas Jay

 

[Ditlihi]

Yes, as I clearly stated before, most if not all the KGC depositories were created after the War ended, in the 1870s and 1880s. The treasure in them have no connection to the Confederate Government which ceased to exist in 1865. The treasure stockpiles are composed of other "lost treasures" that were discovered by the Knights after the War ended such as old Spanish gold, silver, and religious artifacts that were left from their occupation of various parts of the country in and before the 1700s. Some of it was the result of legitimate businesses that KGC members were set up in by the secret society after the War to revive the Southern economy after the terrible Reconstruction Period. According to Dr. Roy Roush, members who were set up in such businesses as banks, livery stables, hotels, saloons, and other prosperous enterprises contributed as much as 50% of their profits back to the organization. I believe these businesses converted this cash into gold and possibly silver bars that are untraceable. Then you have the KGC's mysterious connection to the Medieval Knights Templar, from which it's been said that they "inherited" many priceless historical and religious artifacts and treasure from the Crusades. The Confederate Treasury, at the end of the War, had very little in cash reserves and it's never been proven where that money went or that it was taken by KGC members. Even if it was, it would represent a very tiny amount of what the KGC stashed in its depositories. The Federal Government has NO case, other than what the IRS would demand, for seizing and keeping treasure from these depositories.
Judge Advocate General Holt stated in his report to President Lincoln, of Oct. 1864, that the Order of American Knights (KGC after they changed their name near the end of the War) numbered about 400,000 in the North alone! According to your assessment, the Federal Government had a right to seize any earnings each of these members made after the War. That's ridiculous.
~Texas Jay
View attachment 1522303[/B]

There you have it, TJ. Are you prepared to provide the provenance of all the wealth assumed to be languishing in these so called KGC Depositories, beyond the shadow of doubt? If it has never been proven where the Confederate Treasury went.....how can you say it did not end up in these depositories?

The KGC was a proven to be seditious secret organisation promoting the Confederacy, whose treasury conveniently disappeared at the end of the war. It would not matter when the assets were moved to that location. The U.S.Government would have a very good case to claim ownership, Imho.

The relevance between the Fisher case and found KGC depositories can be easily stated by two words which were the basis of Fisher's case against the State of Florida - "Finders-Keepers".
Members of other secret societies, such as the Masons, the Knights of Pythias, the I.O.O.F., also believed in the "ideals of the Confederacy" and you didn't see the Feds seize any of their assets, did you?
And, if you knew your KGC history, you'd know that the organization was formed in 1854, long before the Civil War started in 1861.


~Texas Jay

I wonder how well that "Finders-Keepers" thing would work in view of current antiquity laws.

If I knew my KGC history? Lol. All one has to do is read your website on the Knights of the Golden Circle to know you are aware that the Confederacy was born of the KGC. I won't take offense though, and I won't insult your intelligence by assuming you know what you're talking about.

Good luck if you decide to jump on the band wagon. I'm actually rooting for you. It will be interesting to see how it all comes through the wash.


Best wishes,

Dit

 

[uglymailman]

I hope you can get a show done. I'll watch the first one and if good will watch more.
I see the same problems for recovery that have been addressed in previous posts. If on State/Federal land you have problems. If in a Cemetery you have problems. If on private land you have problems. If it's on my land I'm going to want half.
I put the "all finds will go to the hunter" in the same category as I'll love you forever, some assembly required, read my lips, no new taxes, it'll only sting a little etc..
If your contract is more than a couple of pages in big letters, I'd pass. Good luck.

 

[lairmo]

I just hope no one digs up my ancient graveyard...

 

[Texas Jay]

There you have it, TJ. Are you prepared to provide the provenance of all the wealth assumed to be languishing in these so called KGC Depositories, beyond the shadow of doubt? If it has never been proven where the Confederate Treasury went.....how can you say it did not end up in these depositories?

The KGC was a proven to be seditious secret organisation promoting the Confederacy, whose treasury conveniently disappeared at the end of the war. It would not matter when the assets were moved to that location. The U.S.Government would have a very good case to claim ownership, Imho.







I wonder how well that "Finders-Keepers" thing would work in view of current antiquity laws.

If I knew my KGC history? Lol. All one has to do is read your website on the Knights of the Golden Circle to know you are aware that the Confederacy was born of the KGC. I won't take offense though, and I won't insult your intelligence by assuming you know what you're talking about.

Good luck if you decide to jump on the band wagon. I'm actually rooting for you. It will be interesting to see how it all comes through the wash.


Best wishes,

Dit View attachment 1522323

The finder of treasure does not have to "provide the provenance" of treasure found any more than a criminal defendant has to prove his innocence. It's up to those who are seeking to take what belongs to him to prove differently and that it belongs to the Federal Government. If I recovered a KGC depository and the Feds challenged my ownership, I'd enjoy beating them in court almost as much as I'd enjoy getting the treasure in the first place. How is the Federal Government going to prove that gold bars that were smelted by the Spanish, treasure that was hidden before the American Revolution, the contents of "lost mines", relics and treasure that belonged to the long-gone Knights Templar, or that gold and silver that was earned by legitimate American businesses after the Civil War somehow belongs to them? Laughable.
By the way, I vowed after my appearance in America Unearthed: Lincoln's Secret Assassins that I'd never do another tv show so you won't see me on the screen unless it's in a rerun of that show or it's during your fantasy court challenge of my future recoveries. I've been offered to participate in 3 for-pay tv shows since 2014 when the AU episode aired and I've turned them all down. My current situation would not permit me to participate even if I wanted to but, if circumstances were different, I would seriously consider doing this one because the production company that Kevin represents has a much better reputation and track record than any of the others had. I'm motivated by history more than money or fame.

Brian Catalina Entertainment

~Texas Jay

 

[Ditlihi]

The finder of treasure does not have to "provide the provenance" of treasure found any more than a criminal defendant has to prove his innocence. It's up to those who are seeking to take what belongs to him to prove differently and that it belongs to the Federal Government. If I recovered a KGC depository and the Feds challenged my ownership, I'd enjoy beating them in court almost as much as I'd enjoy getting the treasure in the first place. How is the Federal Government going to prove that gold bars that were smelted by the Spanish, treasure that was hidden before the American Revolution, the contents of "lost mines", relics and treasure that belonged to the long-gone Knights Templar, or that gold and silver that was earned by legitimate American businesses after the Civil War somehow belongs to them? Laughable.
By the way, I vowed after my appearance in America Unearthed: Lincoln's Secret Assassins that I'd never do another tv show so you won't see me on the screen unless it's in a rerun of that show or it's during your fantasy court challenge of my future recoveries. I've been offered to participate in 3 for-pay tv shows since 2014 when the AU episode aired and I've turned them all down. My current situation would not permit me to participate even if I wanted to but, if circumstances were different, I would seriously consider doing this one because the production company that Kevin represents has a much better reputation and track record than any of the others had. I'm motivated by history more than money or fame.

Brian Catalina Entertainment

~Texas Jay

We will just have to agree to disagree on this one, TJ, as I believe the government can place a claim and it would be on you to dispute it. The same way Mel Fisher had to ( the only actual relevance I can see ), only Mel had provenance on his side. Something you obviously can't provide, judging from your reply.

Probably a sound decision not to participate, good for you.

As I said before, good luck in your endeavors. I'd love to hear that someone other than the government has profited from their search for KGC gold. And the huge contribution to history would be awesome. Perhaps it will be you.


Best wishes,

Dit

 

[ECS]

And, if you knew your KGC history, you'd know that the organization was formed in 1854, long before the Civil War started in 1861.

And, you would know that the KGC instigated succession from the Union, their goal, creating the GOLDEN CIRCLE, which included parts of Mexico (US Senator Jefferson Davis tried to pass an annexation bill) and Cuba.
As for the KGC being descendant of the Knights Templar and possessing their treasure, that connection has always been utilized in relation to secret societies and/or treasure tales, and always NO definitive proof exists to support those claims.
Found treasure always has a way of bringing governments, organizations, and various other claimants out of the woodwork, courts, lawyers, suits and counter suits spread over several years, the longer the better while the lawyers get rich.

Sorry, Texas Jay, but the oft quoted Mel Fisher experience was the exception, not the rule, but his story does keep hope alive.

 

[ECS]

The finder of treasure does not have to "provide the provenance" of treasure found any more than a criminal defendant has to prove his innocence...

That is not a quite true comparison, and a very simple interpretation of US treasure trove laws.

 

[Kace]

I too would like to see interviews of actual KGC Vault Hunters. I'd like it to be in open format with questions and answers as well as talking about their experiences.

My personality is such that I believe where there is a will there is a way. I would never hunt for anything that I had convinced myself that I couldn't get to or recover in this case. If I did that.. how would I know what I researched or hunted for was there? It would remain an illusion for me that never had an ending. That would drive me crazy. No Doubt.

There are ways around or through anything if you are willing to fight for it and use any and all opportunities and avenues. No doubt this wouldn't be easy or quick even, but the sooner it's started from a fresh angle the sooner it will come to fruition.

ECS, TJ and Dit gave good reasons to back up their beliefs and I appreciate that.

TJ..Thanks for posting the template you use and explaining it. Also,Thank You for the link to BCE. You stating that you aren't really looking to recover a big vault and looking more to recover smaller markers I think it was, does make me understand that better.

Dit...Thank You for taking the time to be so detailed in your explanations and reasoning...It was very concise and well written. That made the points easy to understand.

What I've learned so far for myself is that if I would happen to trip and land in a sink hole that was above a vault that collapsed when I fell on it and it contained anything even remotely related to the Confederacy...I ain't chancin' it as far as Confederate and US property laws.

The exchange of opinions between ECS, Dit and TJ was interesting in that I believe Knights of the Golden Circle was a Confederate organization...Not that they were commissioned by the Confederate States or Army or acting in Official Capacity but that the sole purpose of KGC was funding and supporting the Confederate South.

I hope Kevin Hoban/BCE can do this series, I still think it would be Very Interesting. I like that Mr Hoban has the confidence in getting through any roadblocks encountered. I'd just like to see a KGC vault recovery happen. Even if nobody got anything of value if found. If I were a KGC Mega-Vault hunter with limited resources, I'd be taking the offer seriously especially since they are picking up all expenditures and taking the monetary risk and utilizing their resources.

Historically if a KGC Mega Vault was found, this would be huge. Hopefully documentation would be found. Do one KGC Mega Vault recovery, let a museum lease it and travel the states and maybe other avenues would open for all treasure recoveries. Set the precedent for it in the USA.

JMO...

Kace

 

[Rebel - KGC]

Well, I remember Al Capone's Vault in Chicago; Geraldo was NOT amused...

 

[franklin]

And, you would know that the KGC instigated succession from the Union, their goal, creating the GOLDEN CIRCLE, which included parts of Mexico (US Senator Jefferson Davis tried to pass an annexation bill) and Cuba.
As for the KGC being descendant of the Knights Templar and possessing their treasure, that connection has always been utilized in relation to secret societies and/or treasure tales, and always NO definitive proof exists to support those claims.
Found treasure always has a way of bringing governments, organizations, and various other claimants out of the woodwork, courts, lawyers, suits and counter suits spread over several years, the longer the better while the lawyers get rich.

Sorry, Texas Jay, but the oft quoted Mel Fisher experience was the exception, not the rule, but his story does keep hope alive.

I have to come in here and reply because ECS things do not work the way you say they did. The KGC did not instigate succession here in the US. The KGC at the time the Civil War broke out was in the process of taking over Mexico and getting it into the Union as several Southern States so the South would have more slave states than north had free states. This would give them more delegates and Senators in Congress and help them to pass legislature that would help the South.

As far as the KGC starting in 1850 is only because of several members trying to get more members into the KGC. The KGC originally started around 1810, that is the first order of the KGC and it was followers of the Bonnie Blue Flag which later became the Sons of Liberty and then the Knight's of the Golden Circle. We have had the order of the KGC which can be traced back to the Crusades but then they were called Knight's Templar. All of that was eventually brought to the US when the US was just Colonies in the early 1600's. After the Civil War the KGC became OAK and today it is the Bohemian Club with it's headquarters in California.

 

[ECS]

After the Missouri Compromise, several in the KGC realized for a perfect "GOLDEN CIRCLE", it would have to become independent of the United States.
When one studies the Confederate cabinet of Jefferson Davis, the members included KGC, Freemasons, and Davis's personal secretary was Skull & Bones. a hodgepodge mélange of "secret societies".
Yes, there was a definite connection to the Confederacy by the KGC, whose main objective was to instigate insurrection and rebellion against the Federal government of the United States.
It does not matter if the depositories were made before the Civil War, or after during Reconstruction- the prime purpose of these hidden funds were for the specific purpose of another insurrection and rebellion against the Federal government, and would be considered in the same light as that resistance group formed by Nathan Bedford Forrest during the same period.
Now if we all had a dime for every "secret society" that claimed descending from the KNIGHTS TEMPLER since that Friday the 13th day in October, that would be a true treasure.

 

[franklin]

ECS, lay a $20. US Gold Coin down, now you tell me how many different people and countries held that coin? The US Government can not prove anything private money or KGC money without documentation. As a treasure hunter I sure am not going to supply that information to them. They will have to prove that the money is not from a private hoard or from some other source. Without proving the source all the US Government can do is tax the treasure after you sell the treasure. It is only $20. in US currency unless you claim other wise. It says so right on the coin.

 

[ECS]

Let's think about that.
This thread is about looking for KGC experts, for research and recovering KGC depositories...
No the Federal government would never make that "connexion"!

PS, I'll give you a crisp new $20 Federal Reserve Note for that old only $20 double eagle coin, it is only worth $20 as you say.

 

[Rebel - KGC]

I think it started with Vice-President Arron Burr vs President Thomas Jefferson "Conflict" in 1803 or so. "AB" wanted his OWN Empire... VERY similar to the GOLDEN CIRCLE; Mexico, Cuba, Central America, South America. In FACT, REBELS/Ex-Rebels DID establish colonies in Brazil, etc. CONFEDERADOS!

 

[Kace]

I think it started with Vice-President Arron Burr vs President Thomas Jefferson "Conflict" in 1803 or so. "AB" wanted his OWN Empire... VERY similar to the GOLDEN CIRCLE; Mexico, Cuba, Central America, South America. In FACT, REBELS/Ex-Rebels DID establish colonies in Brazil, etc. CONFEDERADOS!

Ok...Where did you find the information regarding rebels establishing colonies in Brazil? That's outside of US jurisdiction.

 

[ECS]

I think it started with Vice-President Arron Burr vs President Thomas Jefferson "Conflict" in 1803 or so. "AB" wanted his OWN Empire... VERY similar to the GOLDEN CIRCLE; Mexico, Cuba, Central America, South America. In FACT, REBELS/Ex-Rebels DID establish colonies in Brazil, etc. CONFEDERADOS!

Also in British Honduras(Belize), Mexico, Peru, and Canada.
In Brazil the descendants hold cotillion balls and fly the Stars and Bars.

 

[franklin]

Ok...Where did you find the information regarding rebels establishing colonies in Brazil? That's outside of US jurisdiction.

I know one gentleman from Bedford County that was in Brazil in 1859. Later was a member of an elite Partisan Rangers. Was not Morgan or Mosby either. You can find no information on these Partisan Rangers. His brother was in the 2nd Virginia Calvary.

But seriously ECS, proof of ownership lays with the finder of treasure over all the world. If the government wants to take a treasure found then they are going to have to present the proof. The finder does not have to prove anything, the treasure is already his. The burden of proof lays with the US Government, they will have to prove that it is CSA through and by KGC. But my point being made is that when you look at money especially coined money you do not know from where it came from that is why it is called TREASURE.

Again the Golden Circle was not to form a separate country it was to enhance and expand the trade for the South. Read the KGC report from Riley, North Carolina. It was for trade and to get more states into the South as slave states. Old Abe started the succession movement it was not the KGC.

 

[Kace]

I know one gentleman from Bedford County that was in Brazil in 1859. Later was a member of an elite Partisan Rangers. Was not Morgan or Mosby either. You can find no information on these Partisan Rangers. His brother was in the 2nd Virginia Calvary.

But seriously ECS, proof of ownership lays with the finder of treasure over all the world. If the government wants to take a treasure found then they are going to have to present the proof. The finder does not have to prove anything, the treasure is already his. The burden of proof lays with the US Government, they will have to prove that it is CSA through and by KGC. But my point being made is that when you look at money especially coined money you do not know from where it came from that is why it is called TREASURE.

Again the Golden Circle was not to form a separate country it was to enhance and expand the trade for the South. Read the KGC report from Riley, North Carolina. It was for trade and to get more states into the South as slave states. Old Abe started the succession movement it was not the KGC.

Where did the information on the Partisan Ranger or Rebel Colonies in Brazil come from?

I have a lot of individual Partisan Ranger information from families of Partisan Rangers.