Lets try to put ourselfs in the outlaws footsteps back in the day!!??

[Mr.Jody]

Let me ask something,over a period of time, how far do you folks think a stash would sink into the ground? Say like a coin or a 5pound sack?

 

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[GoldBack]

Let me ask something,over a period of time, how far do you folks think a stash would sink into the ground? Say like a coin or a 5pound sack?

Depends on:
1) the climate of the given area
2) the soil type
3) along with the weight of the buried object
4) and possible if there was/is any active river(s) nearby the target

Rainy climate with a lesser rocky soil and a fairly heavy object may sink further than say a dry climate with very rocky soil with the same weight. But im just shooting in the dark here, have no real knowledge of the subject.

 

[zerojinx]

I don't think you are far off in your assesment. But unless you have a geologically unstable area it shouldn't be that far down in the ground, assuming it was left under a rock on the surface, or even just placed a a few feet down. America doesnt have that long of a history, and hence the object, no matter how heavy should not have sunk more than a foot or two. Assuming we are talking about loot that a group of robbers could carry on thier horse or a pack mule or two.

However, if the loot is in an area known for karst topography, such a sinkholes and numerous caverns in the area, then could be deep in the ground if the site it was buried in collapsed into a sinkhole and then was silted in due to flooding or use as a trash dump in a later period. Area's this may be of potential concern are in Missouri, Tenn., Kentucky, Texas/NewMex (guadalupe mnts), just to name a few off the top of my head. You also have the problem of regular river floods, or even flash floods in the SW. This can alter the landscape and further bury the loot.

 

[Mr.Jody]

Yep, so I have read some posts that the outlaws like to stash along creeks or rivers....not good for us modern day hunters...

 

[Tuberale]

Let me ask something,over a period of time, how far do you folks think a stash would sink into the ground? Say like a coin or a 5pound sack?

I asked that of a soil scientist at Oregon State University a few years ago. His reply may be of help here.

He stated soils accumulate in Oregon at the rapid rate of 1 inch per 200 years. Even recently dropped coins don't go much deeper than the surface of the soil. It takes literally thousands of years for a cache to be buried a foot deeper than it was originally buried.

He said that was true of most of the United States. Erosion can change that consideration, along with other weather factors locally. Frost/freeze/flood/earthquakes/volcanic eruption ... all can affect small areas of land. But it general, he said, these forces are just as likely to raise a buried object as bury them deeper.

And there are exceptions. A coin dropped into deep mud, as many Western towns developed before macadam roads were built starting in the 1910-1920's, might become pushed even deeper by the action of horse, cattle, sheep, mule, or other livestock stepping on the coin when the soil was quite pliable. The larger the animal, the deeper the object might be pushed. It's unlikely an animal would force a coin deeper than 4 inches, though.

I'm certain we'll hear many more theories and specific instances. I'm just saying that's what a soil scientist told me.

 

[simonds]

Well I'm not a scientist but I have buried many fence posts, 2-3 feet deep.
They have never settled deeper, I wish they would cause I have to go around the fence line every spring and drive them back down. if I don't they will heave right out of the ground in a few years. I think the same goes with buring anything. The frost will push it up if you are in this climate zone. Maybe not in the south or south west, I don't know, I'm just an old retired cowboy.
Happy Trails

 

[truckinbutch]

Got mixed feelings on Simonds' post . My area of WV rocks hoove out of the ground every spring .
Metal , on the other hand , seems inclined to sink subsurface .
Jim

 

[Tuberale]

Well I'm not a scientist but I have buried many fence posts, 2-3 feet deep.
They have never settled deeper, I wish they would cause I have to go around the fence line every spring and drive them back down. if I don't they will heave right out of the ground in a few years. I think the same goes with buring anything. The frost will push it up if you are in this climate zone. Maybe not in the south or south west, I don't know, I'm just an old retired cowboy.
Happy Trails

Bet you didn't reset those posts until after the ice in the bottom of the postholes had either drained or thawed.

Not everything buried gets pushed out of the ground. Case(s) in point: Have you ever seen coffins on top of the ground after a heavy freeze or frost? I don't think those coffins get buried deeper with time, either.

 

[Mr.Jody]

very good point simods!
I'm glad everyone is posting thier opinions GREAT THREAD

 

[RGINN]

Jason in Enid mentioned something there. The whole point of robbin a bank was to get money to use, not bury in some sort of bank. Those guys spent money as quick as they got it. If things went bad and they got cornered, one of the first things you would want to do if you had time was stash the evidence though. The well planned robbery involved stashing some fresh mounts on down the escape route, too. Along with makin sure any fences were cut along your intended escape path. Many hold ups were not too well planned, in hindsight. Outrunning a posse was possible, as sometimes it was made up of folks who weren't real eager to get within shootin range of the bad guys. It seems I've read more cases of bank robberies being foiled right there in town by the law and armed citizens than ones about robbers being brought to bay by heroic posses outside of town.

 

[simonds]

Tuberale,
The reason coffins don't pop out of the ground is because they put you 6 feet under. Same goes for utility poles and such. Buildings at least 42 inches. In my area the frostline is at least 3 feet deep. Anything above the frostline is going to heeve and move with the frost. Maybe not completely out of the ground, but it is going to move.
I don't think someone on the run is going to stop and dig a hole very deep to bury the stolen goods. I would look for a quick hiding place, like rocks, hollow tree, large log or something to hide it under. Just my opinion.
Happy Trails

 

[sportinwood]

Let's not forget that the robbers may not, and most likely did not, have the luxury of time to bury or hide the loot if there were a posse hot on their trail.
The smart ones would already have a stashing spot set up. Dig a hole deep enough to hold the goodies, throw it in, and then roll a preset rock on top, or drop a bush into the hole, and presto, instant concealment. Some of these gangs were chased for a week before being caught up with. In order to keep well ahead of the posse, these guys had to get rid the excess weight and travel light and fast. There were others who were caught within a few hours, and the recovery was zero. How many times have we read "none of the gold was recovered".

Give some thought to the dollar amounts of gold often claimed to have been stolen from stage coaches, trains and banks. At the time gold was $20.00 an ounce, so, $20,000.00 in gold is 1000 ozs. 1000 ozs divided by 16 ozs. to the pound = 62.5 lbs. Not terribly heavy.
$100,000.00 divided by $20.00 = 5000 ozs. divided by 16= 312.50 lbs. That's a lot of weight for 3-4 guys to be hauling. If there was any chance of escape, it, the excess weight, would have to be gotten rid of quickly.

Hope this gives you something to think about.

While I do agree that weight would play a role in how far the loot could travel there are allot of variables that would have to be taken into account.

Just to name a few:
How heavy is the man riding the horse?
How many men were involved?
Was the loot taken by just one man or did several men take separate bags?
How healthy was the horse?
Was it easy or hard riding?

With all this in mind it would be difficult at best to determine how for the loot is away from the scene of the crime.
You should also realize the precious metals are measured in Troy ounces which is 12 Oz. to the lb. rather that 16. So at $20,000.=1000 Oz. divide that by 12 = 83.33 lb. and $100,000 = 5000 Oz. divided by 12 = 416.66 lb.
Now while the extra 20 lbs. may not be a big deal the extra 100 certainly would be. Now think about the man carrying it.

For instance Jesse James stood 5'8" tall and weighed in at 155 lbs. add the 83 lbs to him and now his horse is carrying 238 lb. I would think he could ride quiet a bit further than Cole Younger who was 5'11" and weighed in at 230 lbs. add the 83 lbs. to him and you get 313 lbs.

Now if you were a horse expert and could find the exact stats on any particular robbery.
Such as:
Breed and health as well as size of the horse.
Weight of the robber.
Exact rout of travel.
Exact amount of loot.
etc. etc. etc.

You may have a chance at narrowing down where the treasure lies.

I'm probably reading too much into all of this but if we are looking at things from a mathematical standpoint we need to be as accurate as possible.

Just my 2 cents... HH!!!

 

[Jason in Enid]

of course, back then these guys rode horses all thier lives. They would have known without calculations how far thier horses could go. But that doesnt mean they went until thier horses gave out THEN buried the money. If they knew it was too much of a load, they would have ditched it quick.

Also.... All these huge numbers of stolen $$$. B.S.! What were they robbing, Fort Knox? Small town banks, trains, stage coaches, didnt keep anything close to the "legend" amount stolen. They typically got a few hundred to a few thousand, and I bet a lot of that was in cash instead of gold or silver.

 

[zerojinx]

Jason in Enid mentioned something there. The whole point of robbin a bank was to get money to use, not bury in some sort of bank. Those guys spent money as quick as they got it. If things went bad and they got cornered, one of the first things you would want to do if you had time was stash the evidence though. The well planned robbery involved stashing some fresh mounts on down the escape route, too. Along with makin sure any fences were cut along your intended escape path. Many hold ups were not too well planned, in hindsight. Outrunning a posse was possible, as sometimes it was made up of folks who weren't real eager to get within shootin range of the bad guys. It seems I've read more cases of bank robberies being foiled right there in town by the law and armed citizens than ones about robbers being brought to bay by heroic posses outside of town.

I dont think there were that many fences to slow em down, definately not out west. Area's with alot of fences, would have put the robbers on the roads. I'm thinkin though that most of the robberies were planed out. The ones that didnt plan to well were probably the ones who feel victim in town. These i think would have been the spur of the moment roberies.

 

[Kentucky Kache]

Also.... All these huge numbers of stolen $$$. B.S.! What were they robbing, Fort Knox? Small town banks, trains, stage coaches, didnt keep anything close to the "legend" amount stolen. They typically got a few hundred to a few thousand, and I bet a lot of that was in cash instead of gold or silver.

True, but wouldn't you want to find a few hundred to a few thousand, face value, in gold and silver? Of course in most cases paper money would be gone now.

 

[Mr.Jody]

Whats a "huge number"? A 5 pound leather sack of gold coins or silver coins to me is "HUGE" . I do know of a couple "huge number" loots that was taken,AND 1 or 2 "coins" has been recovered!
Not saying every outlaws back in the day were robbing Fort Knox, but there actually is some big time heists that happened and the folks were caught not to long after and were found broke!Some were known to rob "several" things and people .Lets not forget about the jewelry and weapons that were taken too...
VERY INTERESTRING OPINIONS OF EVERYONE!

 

[Tuberale]

Tuberale,
The reason coffins don't pop out of the ground is because they put you 6 feet under. Same goes for utility poles and such. Buildings at least 42 inches. In my area the frostline is at least 3 feet deep. Anything above the frostline is going to heeve and move with the frost. Maybe not completely out of the ground, but it is going to move.
I don't think someone on the run is going to stop and dig a hole very deep to bury the stolen goods. I would look for a quick hiding place, like rocks, hollow tree, large log or something to hide it under. Just my opinion.
Happy Trails

Now usually around 6 feet.

Sorry, Happy Trails. Just pullin' your leg.

Yep, some smaller objects can get heaved by frost or freezes.

People on the run are not going to stop and dig a hole. Where did they keep their shovels on the darn horses? Under a rock or maybe in an animal burrow (like a badger, squirrel, bear) but more likely shallow cave. Tossing a heavy bag off a bridge seems pretty likely too: at least you have a landmark that's unlikely to move soon. In the West, behind a large log is always possible too. If the log was Western Red cedar, it may still be there 1,000 years from now! A case where it pays to know your flora.

 

[sportinwood]

Tuberale,
The reason coffins don't pop out of the ground is because they put you 6 feet under. Same goes for utility poles and such. Buildings at least 42 inches. In my area the frostline is at least 3 feet deep. Anything above the frostline is going to heeve and move with the frost. Maybe not completely out of the ground, but it is going to move.
I don't think someone on the run is going to stop and dig a hole very deep to bury the stolen goods. I would look for a quick hiding place, like rocks, hollow tree, large log or something to hide it under. Just my opinion.
Happy Trails

Now usually around 6 feet.
Sorry, Happy Trails. Just pullin' your leg.
Yep, some smaller objects can get heaved by frost or freezes.
People on the run are not going to stop and dig a hole. Where did they keep their shovels on the darn horses? Under a rock or maybe in an animal burrow (like a badger, squirrel, bear) but more likely shallow cave. Tossing a heavy bag off a bridge seems pretty likely too: at least you have a landmark that's unlikely to move soon. In the West, behind a large log is always possible too. If the log was Western Red cedar, it may still be there 1,000 years from now! A case where it pays to know your flora.

HMMM... Now that you mention that I do remember a story. I don't have all the details but I remember that a man had robed a train or a coach of an entire army payroll that was on its way to Fort Douglas Utah. It was payroll for I think 1000 troops. He road south west on the west side of Utah lake and was caught up with by the posse. He had nothing with him but when questioned about it he admitted to throwing the money down a "Badger Hole". While I don't know how much truth there is to his claim. I think that it is very likely that is exactly what he did. Maybe he rolled a rock over it or something to mark his cache or maybe he knew he was going to be caught so he just wanted to ditch it so he could claim in hopes of getting off the hook that he had nothing to do with the robbery and without the money they would have no proof.

I was thinking that maybe we could all put our heads together and try to research out one of these lesser known robberies. Kinda like a T-Net treasure hunt. What do you guys think?? Anybody have a good one that we could try to find? One that doesn't already have 766,298,094,111 people looking for it??

 

[Jason in Enid]

Well, the first step is to research local papers from that time and find an article giving basis to the legend. Can't do this from a distance. Don't trust any stories, find the facts yourself. Oldtime papers posted when people came into town to visit, so a robbery of any kind WILL be in the paper.

If you can't find it, it didnt happen.

 

[Mr.Jody]

[/quote]


I was thinking that maybe we could all put our heads together and try to research out one of these lesser known robberies. Kinda like a T-Net treasure hunt. What do you guys think?? Anybody have a good one that we could try to find? One that doesn't already have 766,298,094,111 people looking for it??
[/quote]

yep, thats what Im talking about!!