Lets Discuss (like gentlemen) "The Great Divide" - Artifact Sales

[ScubaFinder]

Re: Lets Discuss (like gentlemen) "The Great Divide" - Artifact Sales

Sorry we made you puke Tom....I'm also sorry you have already given up. Are there a few hypocritical bureaucrats in the DHR / BAR in Florida, yep...I could name names but what purpose would it serve. There are a few in our ranks that I could say worse about too. You suffer from the age old problem of categorizing people into stereotypes. One archaeologists does something you don't like, so you brand them ALL as un-tustable and useless. Typical behavior for many people on these forums. Try meeting 15 or 20 archaeologists and speaking with them like a gentleman, you'd likely find that you like about 19 of them and have a lot in common with them.

I don't see them as the enemy, and most of them don't see us as enemies either. We cannot continue to let a few unethical treasure hunters brand us all as grave robbers anymore than we can continue to ASSUME that all archaeologists are ivory tower elitists. It's simply not true on either side of the coin, and we have to be intelligent enough to see it and DO something with it other than complain

 

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[bigscoop]

Re: Lets Discuss (like gentlemen) "The Great Divide" - Artifact Sales

It's not just about archeologist, it's about the systems and the mechanices of those systems that are already established that, in all fairness, many of them "have" to operate in. This isn't to say that they all enjoy these systems, or that they all agree with these systems, but as it stands, they do have to operate within them.

I had a DNR Officer in Indiana explain a similar situation to me this way one time, "I agree, I think it's a stupid law and I'm certainly not out here looking for it and have plans to do so, but if it's brought to my attention, and my superiors know it's been brought to my attention, then you're getting a ticket."

 

[Twisted One]

Re: Lets Discuss (like gentlemen) "The Great Divide" - Artifact Sales

As to what Tomclark wrote, you are very right. The Archaeologist have all of the power. They are seen by the government as a group of people with power, why is that? What gave them power?

We are looking for that same power, and the quickest way to do so is through cooperation with the archaeologist whom already have that power. The archaeologist did not have to fight anyone to obtain that power. For us to get any sort of power we would have to fight the archaeologist.

Currently we have no say as to what we can and can not do, unless we manage to pull enough of us together to achieve it. If we were able to develop a committee that consisted of archaeologist and hobbyist than we would have some say in matters.

It is a long the lines of, "If you can't beat them, join them". At the rate that they further influence laws that effect us, we can fight them after the bill is written or during it's conception. Where do we have a better chance of making changes? At conception.

 

[Jon Phillips]

Re: Lets Discuss (like gentlemen) "The Great Divide" - Artifact Sales

All puking aside.......

It's their "game" right now....They are holding the cards.....BUT.....There are waaaaaay more hobbyists that will oppose them if our hands are forced than there are draconian state archaeologists that think they are the only ones that can hold history in their hands.

That's what it will come down to, and that's what will shift the power to us.....Registered voters that are vocal. It's all a numbers game at that point. I doubt they could raise a "ruckus" like all the combined efforts of metal detectorists, bottle diggers, fossil hunters, arrowhead hunters, divers/pro salvors, etc.

It's important that we all be involved in what's to come or it will be 100% against us.

If we present a fair and ethical plan that protects the sites that need protecting, and still allows for the hobbyist collector to enjoy their pursuits, it will work out best for both sides....it will make it the same side even......

Sites that are already historical parks are off limits anyway...there is no money for new parks (in Florida anyway), there are plenty of places to find interesting things on state or federal lands that aren't now, or will they ever be, parks. Permit money could go towards keeping existing parks open and park rangers employed.

The items recovered from "oblivion" will at least be around for future generations...Any professional that says it's better to let them rot than be in the hands of a "common citizen" should be immediately fired, as they have no respect for what they are paid to bring to light...same goes for any state or federal employee found throwing away artifacts because they are too numerous or "multiples or duplicates".

The things that need to be struck from any existing or future regulation needs to be the "anything man-made over 50 years old" part... that is absolutely ridiculous!!!

Also, I believe there is an exception to the federal artifact regulations for bullets, and coins...that should be the norm, as those are "multiples and duplicates" that end up in the dumpster....

There should be no retroactive penalties or confiscation for past items, no matter how or where they were recovered, unless someone can prove (in a court of law, not an administrative hearing or such unconstitutional junk), that they were recovered illegally on a historic site (as in state park...not "archaeological zones"). If they make it illegal to wear a green shirt...they can't go back and fine everyone that has ever worn a green shirt.....

I would have no problem reporting unusual finds....The finds should remain the property of the finder...if the government wants them bad enough, they could buy the items. I'm sure some would donate items if they were to be studied and/or displayed for the benefit of historical knowledge. The reporting system could be all online, with exceptions for people that are not that computer literate to mail in pictures or descriptions. There could be a list of common items that didn't need to be reported (or a list of items that did, if it was the shorter of the two options). The cost of that system would be minor....if it was too much of a finacial burden...then put one of these guys that has all the time on their hands to make up crazy regulations on it....or fire them and put that money on it!!!

Issue salvage permits like they are going out of style....then sit back and collect all that tax money on fuel, food, equipement sales and rentals, hotels, boat repair, beer!, and all the other taxes that come with it....Oh!...and if anyone finds anything of value...the state can sit back and collect 25% or whatever it is of the items....win/win.

Anyone that sells guns for profit have to keep pretty serious records of everything they buy and sell, and give regular reports...there are plenty of places that sell guns, so it must not be that hard to send in reports on a pre-printed form.....

The regulations are coming....so it all comes down to: Do we want to have a say on what they end up being, or sit back and have crazy stuff jammed down our throats? I can't believe that the major manufacturers and retailers aren't all up in arms every time some state or city tries to ban anything that even smells like metal detecting/artifact collecting.......

 

[Twisted One]

Re: Lets Discuss (like gentlemen) "The Great Divide" - Artifact Sales

Well as I have said before, in California state parks are being closed left and right, some already are shut down, some are on the list for being shut down with in the year due to the California budget.
I doubt selling licenses, permits, etc... to detect in California would fix the budget enough to support those parks, but it sure as heck couldn't hurt their budget either.
You figure if you had 10,000 hobbyist agree to it in California pay for a $100 set of classes to get their license, and then pay a $40 a year permit. That is quite a bit of revenue for the state parks.
Of course if half of them are still closed due to the current budget I don't see a ton of people paying to detect them.

Who knows, I think it would be beneficial to the state, what's it like in Florida right now, all the parks are open? I wonder what would happen if they did a system like the current gold claims? You are leasing the rights to detect there, it is for you and only you, unless something that fits an archaeological concern is found. While you have the claim you are paying a certain amount a year, and you are required to do some sort of improvement to the area. Isn't that how gold claims work?

 

[ScubaFinder]

Re: Lets Discuss (like gentlemen) "The Great Divide" - Artifact Sales

Yes, I believe that is how gold claims work in California at least, I haven't looked into that in a few years though. I like your idea of scouting areas and obtaining a "Claim Area". The metal detectorist could police the area for looters, provide trash clean up, and report all artifacts found to the officials. The money would help in many ways, which would be left up to the powers that be to decide which areas to spend it on. Once you complete your claim area, you'd apply for another and start again. I don't think the bulk of recreational hunters would go for this idea, but the serious ones would and we would help the archaeologists by doing so. Definitely a good thought! Thanks!

 

[Twisted One]

Re: Lets Discuss (like gentlemen) "The Great Divide" - Artifact Sales

Yeah I was think of a claim being placed on an area where something significant was found, but not worth financing a full archaeological dig. Then a claim could be filed allowing the hobbyist to dig there. I think this is a situation where documentation of items, depth, etc... could be required to keep the claim. If something of great significance is eventually found the archaeologist have not lost everything leading up to that point, and if nothing but some minor relics are found then the owner of the claim can possibly make a profit.

Of course that theory of creating a system to determine the significance of an item would have to be already in place, or the battle would just rage on over whether the claim was legit or not.

 

[bigscoop]

Re: Lets Discuss (like gentlemen) "The Great Divide" - Artifact Sales

Maybe a salver/claim/hobbyist approach...three classes of permits? Each class of permit carrying it's own requirements and guidelines? But I don't think this is at the core of the issue.....I think the core of the issue/battle is, "what is to happen to all of these artifacts once they are discovered and recovered"...or whatever the case may be? From what I can tell, this is the real battle that needs to find an agreeable treaty first because none of the rest can even be reasonably discussed until a solution to this issue can be found. One side "firmly" believes the state should own and control it all, the other side "firmly" disagrees and desires to own and control what they find, or at the very least, realize a personal benefit from their investments and efforts. So to me, from what I have experienced & researched, this is the first area that needs to find an agreeable solution ahead of everything else.

 

[lookindown]

Re: Lets Discuss (like gentlemen) "The Great Divide" - Artifact Sales

Sorry we made you puke Tom....I'm also sorry you have already given up. Are there a few hypocritical bureaucrats in the DHR / BAR in Florida, yep...I could name names but what purpose would it serve. There are a few in our ranks that I could say worse about too. You suffer from the age old problem of categorizing people into stereotypes. One archaeologists does something you don't like, so you brand them ALL as un-tustable and useless. Typical behavior for many people on these forums. Try meeting 15 or 20 archaeologists and speaking with them like a gentleman, you'd likely find that you like about 19 of them and have a lot in common with them.

I don't see them as the enemy, and most of them don't see us as enemies either. We cannot continue to let a few unethical treasure hunters brand us all as grave robbers anymore than we can continue to ASSUME that all archaeologists are ivory tower elitists. It's simply not true on either side of the coin, and we have to be intelligent enough to see it and DO something with it other than complain

You think that 19 out of 20 archies agree that detectorist should be able to keep historical artifacts that they find?

 

[bigscoop]

Re: Lets Discuss (like gentlemen) "The Great Divide" - Artifact Sales

Sorry we made you puke Tom....I'm also sorry you have already given up. Are there a few hypocritical bureaucrats in the DHR / BAR in Florida, yep...I could name names but what purpose would it serve. There are a few in our ranks that I could say worse about too. You suffer from the age old problem of categorizing people into stereotypes. One archaeologists does something you don't like, so you brand them ALL as un-tustable and useless. Typical behavior for many people on these forums. Try meeting 15 or 20 archaeologists and speaking with them like a gentleman, you'd likely find that you like about 19 of them and have a lot in common with them.

I don't see them as the enemy, and most of them don't see us as enemies either. We cannot continue to let a few unethical treasure hunters brand us all as grave robbers anymore than we can continue to ASSUME that all archaeologists are ivory tower elitists. It's simply not true on either side of the coin, and we have to be intelligent enough to see it and DO something with it other than complain

You think that 19 out of 20 archies agree that detectorist should be able to keep historical artifacts that they find?

"I" don't believe they should be able to keep the truly unique or truly significant historical artifacts they find, but I do believe they should be "fairly compensated" and credited for their time, honesty, expense, and especially the loss of the item if the state wants to take possession of it. And if the state decides they don't want it, then it should belong to the finder to do with as he chooses, sell, trade, whatever. The state was provided first & fair chance and they declined. It's very possible that self-funding programs could be put into place that would support the entire process to the mutual benefit of all concerned parties. There is a better way.

 

[lookindown]

Re: Lets Discuss (like gentlemen) "The Great Divide" - Artifact Sales

Sorry we made you puke Tom....I'm also sorry you have already given up. Are there a few hypocritical bureaucrats in the DHR / BAR in Florida, yep...I could name names but what purpose would it serve. There are a few in our ranks that I could say worse about too. You suffer from the age old problem of categorizing people into stereotypes. One archaeologists does something you don't like, so you brand them ALL as un-tustable and useless. Typical behavior for many people on these forums. Try meeting 15 or 20 archaeologists and speaking with them like a gentleman, you'd likely find that you like about 19 of them and have a lot in common with them.

I don't see them as the enemy, and most of them don't see us as enemies either. We cannot continue to let a few unethical treasure hunters brand us all as grave robbers anymore than we can continue to ASSUME that all archaeologists are ivory tower elitists. It's simply not true on either side of the coin, and we have to be intelligent enough to see it and DO something with it other than complain

You think that 19 out of 20 archies agree that detectorist should be able to keep historical artifacts that they find?

"I" don't believe they should be able to keep the truly unique or truly significant historical artifacts they find, but I do believe they should be "fairly compensated" and credited for their time, honesty, expense, and especially the loss of the item if the state wants to take possession of it. And if the state decides they don't it, then it should belong to the finder to do with as he chooses, sell, trade, whatever. The state was provided first & fair chance and they declined. It's very possible that self-funding programs could be put into place that would support the entire process to the mutual benefit of all concerned parties. There is a better way.

Well said...I agree.

 

[ScubaFinder]

Re: Lets Discuss (like gentlemen) "The Great Divide" - Artifact Sales

My thoughts exactly bigscoop, and to answer your question Lookindown, no, but I do believe that 19 out of 20 feel about the same as I do. They believe there is a better way, and they know that we could be very helpful to them. Don't forget that on their end, they receive a virtual army of people looking for lost archaeological sites for free, and reporting what they find. In our essence, that's what the wise among us do, we look for historical sites and the things that were left behind there. Sounds a hell of a lot like archaeology to me.

 

[bigscoop]

Re: Lets Discuss (like gentlemen) "The Great Divide" - Artifact Sales

My thoughts exactly bigscoop, and to answer your question Lookindown, no, but I do believe that 19 out of 20 feel about the same as I do. They believe there is a better way, and they know that we could be very helpful to them. Don't forget that on their end, they receive a virtual army of people looking for lost archaeological sites for free, and reporting what they find. In our essence, that's what the wise among us do, we look for historical sites and the things that were left behind there. Sounds a hell of a lot like archaeology to me.

Jason,
If it is true, that roughly 19 out of 20 feel the same way, then what, in your opinion after talking with them, are the real issues and holdups preventing the joint quest for the establishment of an entirely new system? If everyone on both sides of the fence knows the current system is broken, or badly flawed, and they all recognize that there must be a better way....then what are the real issues preventing change? Is it simply an issue revolving around the 5% in power that don't feel the same way?

 

[ScubaFinder]

Re: Lets Discuss (like gentlemen) "The Great Divide" - Artifact Sales

Pretty much, that is the way I understand it. The 20% or so that believe we are not capable of doing even acceptable archaeology are the ones at the top of University staffs, government appointments, and even many of the editors at the journals. If you step outside the lines as an archaeologist, you can be black-listed in a heartbeat. The archaeologists that I associate with have families and homes, and they need to be working to support them. Openly working with treasure hunters is like career suicide to them. In truth I think we have to start the change from the top, by ousting the antiquated thinkers and letting some fresh new blood in that will accomplish something other than new legislation. Artifacts and historic sites rotting away in the ground is NOT how you protect history......you can't do it from your chair in your government office either. Show me an archaeologist with some dirt under his fingernails and I'll consider him a "real" archaeologist.

 

[bigscoop]

Re: Lets Discuss (like gentlemen) "The Great Divide" - Artifact Sales

So how are these vital positions acquired? Are they appointed positions, and if so, appointed by who?

 

[ScubaFinder]

Re: Lets Discuss (like gentlemen) "The Great Divide" - Artifact Sales

I'm not sure who does the appointing for state archaeologists, I believe they are hired or promoted from within. The lead archaeologists likely makes the decision, I know they are not elected. Something to look into for sure.

 

[piratediver]

Re: Lets Discuss (like gentlemen) "The Great Divide" - Artifact Sales

Most state and federal archaeologists are not appointed but must compete for their positions but of course having friends in high places helps as it does with any job. Since I started working on the WHYDAH in 1983 I have been branded as a pirate which is of course fitting. Despite the fact that no artifacts have ever been sold and hundreds of thousands of people have seen our exhibits and travelling show some ivory tower archaeologists turn their nose down at us and even try to stop the show from being seen at certain venues. In my opinion it is professional jealousy because most of their projects get little or no publicity and there are no crowds attending exhibits of their finds when they do get around to showing them if ever. Some of the most vociferous critics of private shipwreck exploration do not dive and have never even been underwater but still call themselves "marine archaeologists". This is like someone who does not fly calling themselves a pilot. The tide is turning a bit though I think thanks in part to the media which loves shipwrecks and treasure and in turn gets the public excited about what we all here love. When this same public sees ivory tower types telling them they can't go see a treasure exhibit they are actually helping expose themselves for the hypocrites that they really are. For a lot more info on this check out ProMes.


Pirate diver

 

[bigscoop]

Re: Lets Discuss (like gentlemen) "The Great Divide" - Artifact Sales

Liabilities in the Dirt & Sand

Let’s face it. Under the current archeological philosophy and applied principles and practices, every item discovered and removed from the dirt and sand should belong to the state, at the state’s cost, which translates into and endless flow of liabilities forever being added to an already increasing pile of debt. Sounds ridiculous, and it is ridiculous, unless you’re on the inside looking out. Let me explain how this madness is actually being played out so you’ll better understand why the state’s archeological directors really want everything they can get their hands on. It has a whole lot less to do with the preservation of history, and a whole more to do with, self-preservation.

Folks, simply put, it has to do with funding and budgets. You see, you can’t go asking for an increase in funding unless you can show that it’s badly needed and required. This is why so many insignificant artifacts are sitting in storage, because every last piece on record adds cost, and every added cost translates into increased expenses, and ultimately, increased funding and budgets. To the archeological community every single piece relating to history is considered an asset because they live and die by the funding these assets generate. However, in the real world, these historical pieces, even the most redundant and insignificant pieces, are actually liabilities to the state and its taxpayers because there is a cost attached to all of them. The archeological community preaches to no end that, “the private ownership and selling and trading of artifacts is a disgrace”, but in the real world of state responsibility to the taxpayers, the very management systems and practices the archeological world employs is in fact, an obvious and outright disgrace.

Imagine the mindsets that come into play in order to continually blind a responsible government in such a way? Is anyone really looking at what’s going on here? Can anyone sense that the archeological community understands full well that there is indeed a very personal monetary value attached to each and every artifact they can gather? The more liabilities they can gather, the greater the required funding to support it all. But there is one very huge and very obvious flaw to these dysfunctional practices; the public never even gets to see the vast majority of artifacts in the state’s possession. This fact alone stands as clear evidence that these items do not belong to the tax payers, but rather they are solely the property of a system whose very survival depends on them. “Preserve for continued study and education,”……how’s that possible if these artifacts can’t even be seen and held by the very people who are paying the bill? Truth is, if you took all of the redundant and insignificant artifacts the state has in its possession and you sold them to the public the state could reduce a great deal of its financial liability within the archeological community. So very clearly, “YES” the archeological community understands full well that there is a very personal, immense, monetary value in the collecting of artifacts. Any other claim to the opposite is pure denial in its most sever form.

I think its time the state sets new precedents on what “exactly” is truly a rare or significant artifact. I think they have a sworn responsibility to the state’s taxpayers to demand this action be taken. I also think the state has the responsibility to pursue new systems that generate additional funding for the archeological community that allow the private selling, trading, collecting and donating of all the privately discovered historical items that are of so little historical importance and significance that they aren’t even worth the state’s purchasing at a fair market value. Only by the implementing of a system such as this, when it is recommended by a mutual council that the state purchase an item, will it then be fully assured that the state is indeed spending its funds wisely and responsibly. It's time for the state to focuss its time and expenses on the really important discoveries, the ones that are worth funding and/or paying for.

 

[lookindown]

Re: Lets Discuss (like gentlemen) "The Great Divide" - Artifact Sales

My thoughts exactly bigscoop, and to answer your question Lookindown, no, but I do believe that 19 out of 20 feel about the same as I do. They believe there is a better way, and they know that we could be very helpful to them. Don't forget that on their end, they receive a virtual army of people looking for lost archaeological sites for free, and reporting what they find. In our essence, that's what the wise among us do, we look for historical sites and the things that were left behind there. Sounds a hell of a lot like archaeology to me.

It is archaeology...in its true form...without government control. We do need to find a middle ground, because we dont hear from the middle, we hear from the extreme ends. Like me yelling to the archies "Finders keepers" and archies yelling back "Looter". Im listening...great topic.

 

[bill from lachine]

Re: Lets Discuss (like gentlemen) "The Great Divide" - Artifact Sales

Bigscoop,

Very well thought out and worded post....hat off to you.

I would like to know the percentage of artifacts that are on public display in museums versus what is in storage never to see the light of day....it kind of gets one thinking.

Regards + HH

Bill