Lesson in Treasure Legend Values 101........

[gollum]

Hey Folks,

I own many Treasure Books by different authors. I have many Treasure Magazines with many articles about treasures. Many people reading those stories take them at face value! Don't!

There are the problems with those old treasure stories' values. Rarely are the values given in 1855 dollars (for instance). When the writers put these stories into their books, they most always converted the value to the current (at the time of the writing) values. So, as the story gets retold and rewritten (most of the newer authors just retell the stories from older books, and change some of the verbiage so as not to get sued), the values go up exponentially! Take this "for instance":

1855 Real Story: Guy buries a sack of dust. Value $1000

1965 1st Retelling: Story doesn't sound as good being worth only $1000, so he converts it to 1965 dollars. Now it is a $20,000 story. Sounds meatier!

1974 2nd Retelling: This writer thinks that the $20K was in 1855 dollars, so he converts it to 1974 dollars. Now the cache is worth $150,000! WOW! Let's go find it!

1985 3rd Retelling" This guy makes the same mistake as the last guy, and converts it to 1985 dollars. Now this sack of dust is worth $3,000,000! Leave the wife and kids, sell the house and go! We're rich!

And so on, and so on, and so on, until 2006 when the sack of dust is now a cave full of gold bars valued at $10,000,000 ( I didn't even mention the poetic license that storytellers take when they are weaving the stories to sell their books)!

Look for weights, not values! Even though they are exaggerated as well, you can get a better idea of the truth.

Who says size doesn't matter!

Mike

 

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[stefen]

Gollum,

As you may be well aware, almost in every instance of a lost mine, ledge or cache, the person or persons involved have died suddenly, many times in the care of others, or have mysterously disappeared. Hmmmmmmmmmmmm

 

[gollum]

Gollum,

As you may be well aware, almost in every instance of a lost mine, ledge or cache, the person or persons involved have died suddenly, many times in the care of others, or have mysterously disappeared. Hmmmmmmmmmmmm

Well, that part is the most plausible. I'm not sure where you live, but if you have ever been out in some of our Southern California Deserts, it's easy to make a mistake on figuring out how much water you would need. Especially 100-200 years ago before there were roads and cars. Back then, you not only had to figure water and food for yourself, but for your horse as well! Sometimes they would plan on getting water from "tanks", which are rock formations that hold rainwater (and it RARELY rains out there). Sometimes they would get to the tanks, and the tanks would be dried up! With 80-100 miles before the next town, you may just have died and not realized it yet.

Very many prospectors died in those days from dehydration, hunger, Indians, Thieves, Animals, and accidents. If you fall and break your leg 100 miles in the desert, without a horse, you are most likely a dead man!

The prospectors that did well, usually had Indians as friends that would show them the tanks that had water year round. Also taught them which plants were edible, and carried water in them. The reason most of these stories have a part about a dying man is because they died quite often back then.

There are three reasons most of these stories have yet to be proven or disproved:
1. If anybody found a lost mine, they most likely kept it a secret.
2. Even today, with 4X4s and ATVs, many of these desert areas are impassible except on foot. And with temperatures exceeding 125 degrees f. not too many people go wandering around out there.
3. Many people believe that these stories are just stories. That is not true! There are MANY lost mines and treasures out there. People have found caches of gold, silver, and jewels large enough to retire on. These same people say that there many more waiting to be found.

My point in this thread is not to cast doubt on idea of lost treasures, but to warn people not to believe everything they read in many of these treasure books and magazines. Some of them make the effort to find out what the original story was, but many don't. Draw your own conclusions, but research, research, research!

Oh! I just saw you live around Tustin! My bad. Make this loop one time. It will be a days drive:
>Take I10 to the 62
>Take the 62 past TwentyNine Palms, all the way to the 177 (it dead ends there)
> Take the 177 South back to the I10
> Take I10 East to the 78
> Take the 78 South (or West)
> Stay on the 78 until you get to Oceanside and the I-5
> Take the 5 back home.

This trip will take you through the high desert, around the Salton Sea, and through the Anza-Borrego Desert State Park. In that trip, you will have passed within 10 miles of about 25 lost mines, 10-15 caches of buried staegcoach robbery loot, 4 ledges of gold, a reef of diamonds in clay, and 5 known buried/hidden Spanish Treasures. Of those numbers I quoted, about half of them KNOWN to actually exist. The rest are plausible stories, because the dates, names, and situations can be verified.

Mike

 

[stefen]

Very familiar with the areas you mentioned. In fact, I have ridden through some it by horseback and you are correct in stating about the roughness of the terrain and the lack of water...and the ground temperature can be hot enough to literally fry an egg.

I have a home in Idyllwild which is above Palm Springs, Hemet and near Anza Borrego. Spent many trips to Mt Taquitz valley and the upper region above even before the Tramway.

This whole area is chock full of stories and those in just the areas mentioned above would fill volumns.

When you have the opportunity, would like to have a reference to the diamond reef... can do this offline by email.

 

[Heavy Chevy]

Hi Gang

"1855 Real Story: Guy buries a sack of dust. Value $1000"

Back in 1855 with gold at $20.00 an oz. =50oz.= 4 troy lbs.2oz.
At todays prices it would be a nice stash to find.

I agree with Gollum and always try to find the original source of the story.
I have seen where one modern writers' sources are mostly Lost Treasure mags.
Not exactly the best source to start with.
It is best to try first hand accounts if possible.

Just a thought,

Mike in SC

 

[gollum]

Hi Gang

"1855 Real Story: Guy buries a sack of dust. Value $1000"

Back in 1855 with gold at $20.00 an oz. =50oz.= 4 troy lbs.2oz.
At todays prices it would be a nice stash to find.

I agree with Gollum and always try to find the original source of the story.
I have seen where one modern writers' sources are mostly Lost Treasure mags.
Not exactly the best source to start with.
It is best to try first hand accounts if possible.

Just a thought,

Mike in SC

That's another reason why I try to find the oldest Treasure Story Books possible. That way, you can get the stories before they have been retold too many times (50's or 60's). And if you can find them from the 30's or 40's, you may even get first hand stories!

Mike

 

[gollum]

...I agree with Gollum..stories always change for a variety of reasons. But something I've learned here at TN holds a big CLUE about human nature.
The word is MUM. MOST people will never tell you about a stash, a cashe, a lode, a hill, and vein, etc.
Not until they;ve secured every possible iota of treasure.
Then, the lips move a little.

Bottom line, it works both ways.

Thanks for the thread, Gollum.
HH
Cap Z.

You are most correct Cap. Z.

Thanks-Mike

 

[Comanchero]

I have all the issues of Frontier Times, written by Marvin Hunter in the 1920's. Marvin was able to actually visit and talk to a lot of the old timers and get actual 1st hand knowledge of some treasures, gold mines, etc., which makes for facinating reading along with the great historical articles he wrote about, but even then, as you say human nature being what it is, I a certain that the old timers left out some very pertinent facts or clues for their own reasons, so while the fundamental basics may be absolutely true, other parts may have been intentionally distorted or remembered differently from actual circumstances, etc. Comanchero

 

[audigger53]

The other thing is that you will seldom or never be told that a "Lost Treasure" has been found. Those storys don't sell that well, there is no greed value left. I know, I found one, but it had been cleaned out in 1910.
That is part of the risk in this hobby/obsession, that I have become addicted to.<G>

 

[gollum]

The other thing is that you will seldom or never be told that a "Lost Treasure" has been found. Those storys don't sell that well, there is no greed value left. I know, I found one, but it had been cleaned out in 1910.
That is part of the risk in this hobby/obsession, that I have become addicted to.<G>

I don't think that is right. I think the public would love to read about someone finding a great cache of treasure. I believe the main reason that nobody would report finding a thing like that is because they are afraid of losing it all to Uncle Sam, Spain, or whoever else is in a position of power and authority who could and would take it away from them. Better to make 50 cents on the dollar on the black market, than to advertise it and spend years in court with lawyers fees eating up most of anything you actually receive.

Look what happened to about every Ocean Treasure Salvor. The state where the wreck lies doesn't care what the salvor does. They can't be bothered with longshots. They sit and do nothing for the years the salvor works and sweats to find a certain wreck. The states give them permission to do whatever they want (within reason). Then, one day the wreck is found. Gold and Silver start coming up from the ocean floor. All of a sudden, lawyers and state attorneys generals start filing suits on behalf of the state, on behalf of Spain who originally owned the ship, on behalf the insurance companies who paid off the losses, on behalf of some schmuck who claims to have told the salvor just where the wreck was, and how to find it. A milion lawsuits from a million a$$holes. It better be a BIIIIIIIG treasure!


Mike

 

[audigger53]

Mel Fisher wrote or had someone ghost write the story of finding the Atosca. $450 million dollars, before the Gov.s started in on him. The book sold, but not that well.
The State of Florida voted in Sept. to make the State limit 13 miles offshore and retroactive back to July, because he found it in Aug.
BTW It was either 80 or 100% of any treasure found within Florida State limits belongs to Florida.
Nice guys they elected.<G>

 

[buscadero]

Stefen: I agree 100% w? what you say. My personal pet peeve is after they are attacked by Indians, outlaws, or whatever, somehow only one person manages to survive. I've heard that one over & over again.

 

[gollum]

Stefen: I agree 100% w? what you say. My personal pet peeve is after they are attacked by Indians, outlaws, or whatever, somehow only one person manages to survive. I've heard that one over & over again.

Of course you have heard it over and over again. Just like the other staple in many of the lost mine stories: while the guy was pulling ore or nuggets out, his mule wanders off, and he is left to walk for miles in the desert. He arrives at the town almost dead. He is taken to the doctors office, where he talks about the rich gold ledge or mine, then dies before saying exactly where it is. While getting the body ready for burial, they find either gold nuggets or rich gold ore in his pockets.

The reason you hear those two stories a lot, is because that sort of thing really happened a lot. Nowdays, if your car breaks down in the desert, you pull out the cell phone, or sit on the side of the road and wait for another car. There are no more killer indians (except the ones that get you drunk and make you play blackjack) In the old days, your mule wandering off or a band of unfriendly indians could easily be a death sentence.

SO, even though you hear the same storyline over and over again, with different names and locations, don't think they are bogus. Get all the boring little details of the story, and research them. Place names, people's names, dates, etc. If you can find "Skeleton Canyon", then look for "Bob Johnson." If you can find him, see if he was around Skeleton Canyon in 1847. If all that info matches, then you might want to take a little trip to the area, and see if the landscape matches the story.

Mike

 

[Heavy Chevy]

Stefen: I agree 100% w? what you say. My personal pet peeve is after they are attacked by Indians, outlaws, or whatever, somehow only one person manages to survive. I've heard that one over & over again.

Hi Gang,

Another one i hear of and get tired of hearing is
"So and So found the fist sized gold nuggets or silver bars or hens egg sized emeralds,
but since he had to go back to work the next day, he decided he would remember the site and come back on his next day off. Well, circumstances beyond his control happened and it was a few years before he returned and could not relocate the site."

I feel that someone that stupid doesn't deserve a fortune. Worried about a job when he would never have to work a day in his life after finding this treasure.

Take Care,

Mike in SC

 

[buscadero]

How about he didn't get around to going back to the fabulously rich vein or whatever for 30 yrs. Of course, by that time everything looked different & he couldn't find it again.

 

[gollum]

I agree 100%! I don't put much stock in any stories that go like that!

I could understand if it said they were close to finding something, but had work, and didn't make it back for a while. I have been in that situation before, but NEVER have I found something, then left it where I found it to go to work!

Mike

 

[Goldminer]

What about the authors who do their research, (such as Dobie & Penfield), put together a plausible tale, and then blow everything with a complete fabrication of the true facts, or a complete fabrication from beginning to end? I live in Arizona, and have researched many 'lost treasures" or "lost mines", and some of these authors are unbeliveable (no pun intended) when laying out the facts. Even some of the old newspaper articles are rife with errors and exaggerations of reality. Also, consider that quite a bit of the "lost mine or treasures" were found later when the finder didn't even know they were lost!

 

[gollum]

Weeeeelllll,

Dobie was a little more of a fabricator than Penfield. I have a good friend who went to Az, to check out the Skull Cave Story. They had done a lot of research. Checked and double-checked the facts. Got the Grid Coord. of the cave. When they got there, everything was just like the story had said. The surrounding area, and the cave was exactly like the story talked about, with one exception! There was no crack in the cave ceiling, and no crystal skull. Kind of a bummer, but those are the chances you take!

Most writers these days aren't so much guilty of fabricating stories, but regurgitating old tales without doing any research. See, there are almost NO NEW treasure tales, just retellings of the same old ones. Sometimes with new research. Anybody who wants to do any REAL treasure hunting, I've got a tip for you that you can take to the bank. Find some old-timers in the area you want to hunt in. Go to local Historical Societies and the like. Sometimes they will just love to run into somebody who will listen to them. Sometimes it might take months or years to get them to open up. Either way, you will find information that you have never heard before. Same thing with local libraries. Sometimes people will collect important newspaper clippings from their area. They could have 70 years worth of clippings when they pass on, and they usually get donated to the local libraries or historical societies. They don't usually take the time to go through them at all. You can sometimes find them still bundled together from 150 years ago. That is how you find new treasure stories.

Mike

 

[Siegfried Schlagrule]

Here's why you have a problem. Dobie was a folklorist. His primary purpose was to acurately record the legends he found. Thus he could and did record multiple versions of the same story in the same book. See Coronado's Children and Apache Gold and Yaqui Silver for examples. He only did research for his own treasure projects and they were rarely printed. His literary descendants were compilers of published treasure stories. They would be Michael Paul Henson, Thomas Penfield and Thomas Terry. Henson did a litle on site research in archives but the majority of his research was going to areas and just talking to people. One researcher who stands out was Ed Bartholomew of Frontier Books who also wrote as Jesse Ed Rascoe. Karl von Mueller was an excellant researcher but only published one book of treasure leads called Waybills to Eldorado and lots of short articles of leads in National Prospectors Gazette. I am aware that w.c. jameson has a large number of treasure books and I own a number of them but have not sat down and read any of them so I have no opinion on the usefullness of them. Writing treasure books is a losing proposition for any researcher. Lets say you write an absolutely accurate book that leads the searcher to the exact right spot. The first person that goes to the spot makes the recovery. He may or may not send you proof of the recovery. The next 200 searchers go to the spot and find nothing and you are lambasted as a "fake, a fraud, a hoaxer, a liar, etc." exanimo, ss

 

[buscadero]

I also have another Dobie book, "I'll Tell You A Tale" 1960 Ed. There is a section entitled " In Realms Of Gold " that consists of a rehash of tales from "Coronado's Children & Apache Gold & Yaqui Silver ."
I also have " Lost Mines & Hidden Treasure " by Leland Lovelace (pen name?) It has the same old Breyfogle, Peg Leg, etc., but quite a few that I hadn't heard before.
I agree w/ you 100% re: Penfield & Henson, & you can include Jameson in the bunch too. All his books seem to overlap each other.

Without a doubt, Km was the premier TH'ing authority & always will be. He didn't have to rehash old tales. He always gave me the
impression that he knew much much more than he let on and I'm sure he did.
One more Th'er to mention. Frank Fish! I don't have his book, but I read it quite a few yrs. ago & it left a good impression on me.

L8R