Legend of the Stone Maps

[sailaway]

Rethink on the Survey of 1568. I have problems with the survey and Chuck's claims. Was it a hoax that Chuck and his cronies pulled over on the paper that ran the story? If it was a hoax why go through the trouble to file a claim on the Cheryl Anne in the Superstitions as the survey area was west of town, north of the Gila River Bend on the Interstate, easy to get to, and can drive right to it. There were no corner markers of #5 or #8, however there were 6 Tunnels and 3 Shafts. I saw the picture that was in the paper of Chuck at the mine with the 5 stone above the entrance. Was this the #5 shaft marked in the survey? Chuck had several claims in the Supers, so if he found this shaft of the 1893 Fair Stake why would he not file claim on it, especially if he thought it was historic? Some of you reading this may know the truth and should shed light on the subject. I hate to think of Chuck as a scam artist even though by what I have read there are plenty that would claim that with out proof positive. I know he had an armed army down at the Cheryl Anne as you can read stories of Tom K going in to visit him, he described machine gun nest and snipers on the hills around the camp. The Cheryl Anne was at the junction of the Hoolie Bacon and Red Tanks trails just to the east. The Claim is the bright Quartz Cliffs over the water hole just before Brads Canyon. I know for a fact the purple rocks was a scam, so it could be Chucks claim of finding the Lost Dutchman was a scam also?
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[Gregory E. Davis]

Good evening Sailaway: Just to clarify your statement about "Greg Davis's private Lost Dutchman's files", What you viewed is material and items open to the public for research and can be examined by people making an appointment to see them. Any private files I have or material intrusted to me by others to keep confidential are locked away in a special file and not open to the public. Cordially, Greg Davis

 

[sdcfia]

Good evening Sailaway: Just to clarify your statement about "Greg Davis's private Lost Dutchman's files", What you viewed is material and items open to the public for research and can be examined by people making an appointment to see them. Any private files I have or material intrusted to me by others to keep confidential are locked away in a special file and not open to the public. Cordially, Greg Davis

Your second sentence is an odd one. Why would you say something like this? I'm not trying to impugn you or your reputation, but only to observe that this entire "Dutch Community" thingy is fraught with guarded secrets and "gotcha" moments that seem to be simply intended to extend the life of this mostly dead "legend."

 

[cactusjumper]

Your second sentence is an odd one. Why would you say something like this? I'm not trying to impugn you or your reputation, but only to observe that this entire "Dutch Community" thingy is fraught with guarded secrets and "gotcha" moments that seem to be simply intended to extend the life of this mostly dead "legend."

Hi Steve,

I don't see anything wrong with Greg's statememt.....at all. Many of us are given information with the caveat that we keep the information to ourselves, and tell no one else. SC once gave me some information that he requested that I keep to myself. He may have done that to test me, but I kept the story to myself for more than a year, or two, after he died.

Take care,

Joe

 

[sdcfia]

Hi Steve,

I don't see anything wrong with Greg's statememt.....at all. Many of us are given information with the caveat that we keep the information to ourselves, and tell no one else. SC once gave me some information that he requested that I keep to myself. He may have done that to test me, but I kept the story to myself for more than a year, or two, after he died.

Take care,

Joe

I your see point, Joe, and I clearly understand the concept of secrecy in such matters. Hell, I lived a double life of sorts myself for many years protecting proprietary information, and certainly saw no benefit to anyone by advertising it. In my case, when I got old and worn out, I simply placed everything into the public domain (except a couple things, ha, ha), for the benefit of anyone interested. However, I guess in a large ongoing cottage industry such as the "LDM Insiders Club", folks need to constantly jockey for position and standing by guarding secrets. That's fine from a social pecking-order perspective, but it makes an outsider wonder if the secret was genuinely valuable, why would it still a secret after all this time? Or, on a darker note, what if the secret was of such a nature as to kill the entire legend?

 

[Real of Tayopa]

Do you have a copy of tat map to go with NP's lil map ??

 

[sailaway]

I only found one copy online of the Manuel Alejandro Peralta map and it is not good quality.

 

[Real of Tayopa]

Gracias Sailaway They all help.

 

[ttracer]

Actually there is a height law of 400 feet for drones now. And you must register it with the Gov.

400 ft if not adjacent to a structure. Cliff face should qualify. Sloped ground etc. So it's 400 agl local of as tall as the structure you are next to.

 

[sailaway]

To those of you who have looked at the Mountain Man deposit and thought it is easy to get a sample from there. It is a very dangerous place where that ore is located, as it is at the very top of a 600 foot vertical wall. The only way to gain access to the ore is scaling the head then repelling down to the ore. The Mexicans would pry the ore from the deposit and let gravity do the work. Approximately half way down is a ledge that sticks out about 40 feet with a stone and concrete hut on the ledge to protect the person who repelled down to the ore on the ledge. The end was tied off down on the ledge, then the rope was dropped down and the hut was to get inside away from the rope when dropped or any more ore that may work its way down when this was done. There are several holes in the roof where ore has fallen through, and has not been repaired. Person on ledge would heave the ore over the side to crew down below. When all the ore was removed from the ledge the rope was draped around the hut and one end secured below and the person on the ledge would climb down the other end. The rope would be pulled from around the hut, as the rope started to fall on its own, they let go and ran from the falling rope. Then the rope and climber would be taken back to the top to repeat the process, for this reason it took a minimum of three people to complete the process of removing ore from the side of the deposit. Only an experienced wall climber should attempt such a challenging scale on a dangerous cliff face.

 

[Eldo]

To those of you who have looked at the Mountain Man deposit and thought it is easy to get a sample from there. It is a very dangerous place where that ore is located, as it is at the very top of a 600 foot vertical wall. The only way to gain access to the ore is scaling the head then repelling down to the ore. The Mexicans would pry the ore from the deposit and let gravity do the work. Approximately half way down is a ledge that sticks out about 40 feet with a stone and concrete hut on the ledge to protect the person who repelled down to the ore on the ledge. The end was tied off down on the ledge, then the rope was dropped down and the hut was to get inside away from the rope when dropped or any more ore that may work its way down when this was done. There are several holes in the roof where ore has fallen through, and has not been repaired. Person on ledge would heave the ore over the side to crew down below. When all the ore was removed from the ledge the rope was draped around the hut and one end secured below and the person on the ledge would climb down the other end. The rope would be pulled from around the hut, as the rope started to fall on its own, they let go and ran from the falling rope. Then the rope and climber would be taken back to the top to repeat the process, for this reason it took a minimum of three people to complete the process of removing ore from the side of the deposit. Only an experienced wall climber should attempt such a challenging scale on a dangerous cliff face.

Got any pics of that Sailaway? Would love to see it for myself one day..... Got all the gear and a 600 ' static rope, plus 2-60m dynamic ropes, a cordless hammer drill for anchors and tons of free time.

Honestly I would like to know so I could go rig anchors for individuals and explorations as well as the creation of exotic gold mine tours.....

 

[cactusjumper]

To those of you who have looked at the Mountain Man deposit and thought it is easy to get a sample from there. It is a very dangerous place where that ore is located, as it is at the very top of a 600 foot vertical wall. The only way to gain access to the ore is scaling the head then repelling down to the ore. The Mexicans would pry the ore from the deposit and let gravity do the work. Approximately half way down is a ledge that sticks out about 40 feet with a stone and concrete hut on the ledge to protect the person who repelled down to the ore on the ledge. The end was tied off down on the ledge, then the rope was dropped down and the hut was to get inside away from the rope when dropped or any more ore that may work its way down when this was done. There are several holes in the roof where ore has fallen through, and has not been repaired. Person on ledge would heave the ore over the side to crew down below. When all the ore was removed from the ledge the rope was draped around the hut and one end secured below and the person on the ledge would climb down the other end. The rope would be pulled from around the hut, as the rope started to fall on its own, they let go and ran from the falling rope. Then the rope and climber would be taken back to the top to repeat the process, for this reason it took a minimum of three people to complete the process of removing ore from the side of the deposit. Only an experienced wall climber should attempt such a challenging scale on a dangerous cliff face.

sailaway,

That is a very, very interesting story. Any idea how they found the outcropping in the first place?

Thanks,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[sailaway]

Joe, not positive but it could go back to the story of the native girl that had her tongue cut out for showing the location of the yellow rocks. But the "Crocodile in the pool of lily pads with a map of the world on its back" is referenced to in the Aztecs description of the origin of the treasure from the north that Cortez saw. Then it is just a matter of finding where gravity is bringing it from. It is a strange place to be as it is not in the main Fish Creek Canyon but in a side canyon to no where. In fact you would have to intend on going in that particular canyon because there is a steep drop off that would be a waterfall in the monsoon at the junction of Fish Creek. Only way I know what happened is evidence left behind and where everything is located. It is not a story read or told but can be confirmed by other experienced climbers, reading the clues. Like how the ledge forced the climbers to repel down to it, to retrieve the removed materials from above. There is no way to Access the ledge except from above as it is straight down below it. Humans made it onto the ledge to make the concrete, as domes do not make themselves. Other than the hut there are no features on the ledge as it is flat and ends into the wall on both sides.

Eldo, you can see the Mountain Man from the second pull off when you get to the rim of Fish Creek Canyon, before F.R.213. to get to it you go back to the first pull off, but I believe it is unlawful to park beside the road (they get towed not just ticketed) so would need another driver to drop you off and return at a set time. I do not know if you could get a permit to do a repelling venture in the wilderness. Another thing that may be a problem and get you fined is you are not allowed to leave gear behind for a next time. One more thing, have you ever tried drilling Volcanic Quartz?, it is so hard it takes takes diamond drills as carbide drills wear out before the first hole. On top of that the walk out would kill you carrying all that gear. You can not get out of Fish Creek going north so means the long walk following the creek back to the hairpin, which is 5 miles down the road. I have no idea how far it is following the creek. plus means you have to take enough water down with you to get out. would be better if you had climbers to go back up the way you go down. You have the right gear, in fact your line looks exactly like mine, 20 k low stretch rating Kevlar, really stiff? do not see any spring cams or cars. I would not attempt decent with a figure 8, only way is with a line brake. I use two in case of failure. Look at Google Earth to view the area in Fish Creek and the two side canyons north of 88.

 

[Auhunt]

Always good to have gear

 

[Eldo]

Always good to have gear

And more gear after that....

Cant have enough gear......!


Sailaway I was looking for the pulloff and cant locate the exact one on GE....you said its a pull off from rte 88? or is it a pull off from FR 213?

FR 213 leads to the waterside valley entrance to Fish Creek Canyon and the rte 88 is at the top......I am assuming that its from rte 88 as there are a ton of puloffs and cliffs there.....

I found the Canyon entrance where the rte 88 goes right by in at the upper rim of the canyon, near the switchbacks down the canyon on the road.....any way you can pinpoint the pulloff so I can recon the location.....

I wanna go up there and photo the area. Will share photos here no problem.

I am not necessarily going to install bolts, as there are a lot of bollards and boulders to rope off for anchors.....plus the drill is HEAVY

I have drilled that type of rock before and to be honest you are right about dulling bits, but my milwaulkie turns that to butter......its hardened but in a softer base layer. granite is the hardest to chip through for me. Solid throughout......

If you could help out a little by throwing a quick put in point on the trail I can do the rest.....

Thanks man this sounds like an awesome adventure......

Find any other High angle stuff and you can trust that you have a backup gear head to help.......I rig and do all kinds of vertical work on the side.....

BTW that rope is an 11mm Mammut Static Line.....no Kevlar......just plain braided Kernmantle......and a Woven sheath.....

PMI is still the best, for all around use and caving/rappelling, but its nice to not have to fight that stiffness and the softer rope is easier on bare hands so I got a Mammut spool of 200m for the big runs like this.

A Figure 8 for me is good to 200'...after that I use the SMC Stainless Steel Rappel Rack and Stainless Steel Bars......I have bounced Fantastic Pit with mine and made it to other pits with it as well. they work great as the longer rope will weight the figure eight at the top making it slow but then WAYYY to fast at the end when it lightens up......deceptive for noobs.....or guys straight out of high school ROTC class

For me Cams and Friends(spring loaded) are a little out of the price range of something a hex and/or a nut can do for simple rigging..... I oppose the directions and stack nuts for the same effect as a Cam.....a sliding expansion effect from the opposing trapezoid shapes....

Also they are more suited to lead routes from the ground up, and that again is a rarity for me, as most of my buddies are pansies and cant lead on trad gear.....or remove it when following....LOL......

How many times have you lost an expensive 75 dollar black diamond quad cam when the thing will literally walk its way into the deepest part of a crack and jam itself, with the slightest movement on the rope, even pulling rope through the biner will make it walk......so bunk.....

I always hated that when the rope would move them back and forth and I would look down and they were either stuck or had walked OUT of their position......really notorious for that BTW.......solid passive anchors are still the safest......

 

[Real of Tayopa]

Eldo.just how much does 200 meters of that line weigh ?

 

[sailaway]

El Negro Sombrero

Above the Mountain Man and across Fish Creek is another of the areas that are pointed out by the Minas Sombrero Maps. The Negro Sombrero, has any one been here?

lower right of pic to view the Black Sombrero. The rock that looks like a cross on it, appears to me to be two swords crossed when I look at google earth.

Eldo I am no tour guide, your own explorations are up to you. That being said, you are thinking of violating a sacred burial site of the Apache. The Spanish/ Mexicans were killed for just such actions. I am a native myself and is why I have no pictures of the shelf. It does make me want to don my 1800's Kiowa war regalia, sit on the back of the Crocodile, beat the war drum and sing songs to those Elders of the Spirit world to remind them of the wrongs from the past.

 

[azdave35]

Above the Mountain Man and across Fish Creek is another of the areas that are pointed out by the Minas Sombrero Maps. The Negro Sombrero, has any one been here?
View attachment 1422065
lower right of pic to view the Black Sombrero. The rock that looks like a cross on it, appears to me to be two swords crossed when I look at google earth.

Eldo I am no tour guide, your own explorations are up to you. That being said, you are thinking of violating a sacred burial site of the Apache. The Spanish/ Mexicans were killed for just such actions. I am a native myself and is why I have no pictures of the shelf. It does make me want to don my 1800's Kiowa war regalia, sit on the back of the Crocodile, beat the war drum and sing songs to those Elders of the Spirit world to remind them of the wrongs from the past.

wrongs?

 

[Eldo]

OOOOH

Really....I thought you said the Mountain Man was a Deposit.....?

I have no idea of its history so if you wanna fill me in, so I don't step on my brothers' graves, that would be great....I am from the Hatchie Band of Chickasaw...a funky East Coast Half Breed...lolo

I am just looking for cool areas to come to photograph and do some high angle stuff while out there......I don't want to mess with that kinda stuff.

Was the cliff used as a high burial site? Then the Spanish knew about gold deposits there and got chopped trying to mine there?

 

[Eldo]

Eldo.just how much does 200 meters of that line weigh ?

Dry in the bag its a cool 30lbs feeling, not very much more than that....it just takes up a smaller backpack and you can throw some gear on top in the model I showed.....when its on the cliff at the top its a big drag to get going on the rappel but it opens up after a hundred feet or two, depending on the weight of the person and the device.

But get it wet in a cave or a pit......

Feels way over 100lb standing in a pit.

I rappelled Fantastic Pit in Ellison's once in the early 90's and when the PMI was rigged there by the company we used to go up there and have an incredible time. (their rope company is in the town beneath the Pigeon Mountain that has the 12 mile cave and 2 MASSIVE pits....one 440', and one 586'....that's Fantastic Pit....

The caves are so long there you have to drop a line 125'.......leave the rope.....climb a 30' rigged line that stays there.....to a ledge that makes you skirt the rim of the pit on your belly.

There you see the rig on the permanent line that's set up by PMI.......

It's rigged into the flat part of the ceiling with three bolts and a line that comes back to tie around a huge boulder for your safety line to tie into......

You have to tie in and lean out over the entire pit opening, and grab the rope, pulling it over to you to tie into your device.....that is like a wrestling match with a steel braided cable as you are perched over the complete darkness. The cave opens up halfway down so far that you are then rappelling into a HUGE base chamber that the pit formed at the bottom.

This business of making your way out is even more fun.....as in this pit you can send two teams to opposite entrances, and one team rigs the smaller 440 foot pit, and the other rig the 586' pit, and the teams meet in the middle of the 12 miles of passage, and climb the other rope out for the full breakthrough....

This cave is so awesome and was a whopping 1 1/2 hour drive in from Atlanta......

You would never know that this little small hole would hold all that.....

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