Legend of the Stone Maps

[sailaway]

According to Peralta Document signed and verified by the Governor of the area, found inside the back cover of the Jesuit book it says the mines were Spain's property. Laws that came about after that are trumped by the older law, reason common law still is still applied even though that is older than the United States. There was never a contract between the U.S. and Spain on interest in the west, only Florida. The King repeatedly complained that these mines would drain the whole treasury of Spain because of the repeated requisitions sent to the crown for operation expenses. There are records of these letters in Spain. If they were not owned by the Crown then why the request for operation funds? Spain is forced by law as Catholic and they get their money parts by law in Spain, has nothing to do with ownership or operations. This encourages the priest to get the most out of anything making money as they get a portion. Hence they have a vested interest to make everything profitable as they get their portion off the top. While living in Spain my mother passed out bibles, they were all taken away by the church and the people were told if they needed to know anything the priest would tell them what they needed to know. was almost kicked out of the country for that.
I am not saying that taking on the Federal Government a case would prevail only there is a possibility that this mining controversy may have some interesting twist as things unfold. Simply examining why the Church that has denied any knowledge of mining in the area, is now in bed with a controversial issue that could expose saints as not being so saintly? Ryan's camp brought up the Mel Fisher connection, was why looking at that side too, even though I knew the boy's when living in Key West. Yes I proudly wore my Chonch Republic Shirts in the early eighties, Still have one in my Tee-Shirts. I used to sit on the shores of Woman Key back then and watch them working, blowing holes in the sand with the prop. They even asked me as a Native American how I felt about the Lawsuit to recover certain mineral deposits. My reply was it does no one any good being in the ground, yet the smallest scar on Mother Earth was the only way I could support any effort like that. In other words am against pit mining. Was asked that because there was resistance in court against the efforts they were pursuing on land.

 

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[audigger53]

That's 400 feet from the surface not sea level so you could still fly in there. As far as registration, I think those regulations will be history soon.

Talked with a guy out here and his Drone only had 20 minutes fly time and cost him a Grand ($1000). It came with a back pack for packing it into areas and for storage. Some of the areas I would love to fly one into would take an hour or more of battery life to get it there and back.

 

[azdave35]

Talked with a guy out here and his Drone only had 20 minutes fly time and cost him a Grand ($1000). It came with a back pack for packing it into areas and for storage. Some of the areas I would love to fly one into would take an hour or more of battery life to get it there and back.

a guy on youtube has a video where he flew his drone 3.2 miles..and back on one battery

 

[audigger53]

a guy on youtube has a video where he flew his drone 3.2 miles..and back on one battery

Sounds pretty good if you had spare batteries, you could search an area, then go back and refine the search area. Would need to set an alarm clock for 1/2 life of the battery with a 5-10% fudge factor. Would hate to get excited and loose the drone coming back. Wonder how good they are with thermals?
In Arizona, New Mexico in the mountains the thermals get quite nasty. Fly into El Paso some time and watch the drop as they come into the landing approach. Your stomach will jump right up the first time it happens to you. Worse than flying into John Wayne Airport (Orange County).

 

[audigger53]

According to Peralta Document signed and verified by the Governor of the area, found inside the back cover of the Jesuit book it says the mines were Spain's property. Laws that came about after that are trumped by the older law, reason common law still is still applied even though that is older than the United States. There was never a contract between the U.S. and Spain on interest in the west, only Florida. The King repeatedly complained that these mines would drain the whole treasury of Spain because of the repeated requisitions sent to the crown for operation expenses. There are records of these letters in Spain. If they were not owned by the Crown then why the request for operation funds? Spain is forced by law as Catholic and they get their money parts by law in Spain, has nothing to do with ownership or operations. This encourages the priest to get the most out of anything making money as they get a portion. Hence they have a vested interest to make everything profitable as they get their portion off the top. While living in Spain my mother passed out bibles, they were all taken away by the church and the people were told if they needed to know anything the priest would tell them what they needed to know. was almost kicked out of the country for that.
I am not saying that taking on the Federal Government a case would prevail only there is a possibility that this mining controversy may have some interesting twist as things unfold. Simply examining why the Church that has denied any knowledge of mining in the area, is now in bed with a controversial issue that could expose saints as not being so saintly? Ryan's camp brought up the Mel Fisher connection, was why looking at that side too, even though I knew the boy's when living in Key West. Yes I proudly wore my Chonch Republic Shirts in the early eighties, Still have one in my Tee-Shirts. I used to sit on the shores of Woman Key back then and watch them working, blowing holes in the sand with the prop. They even asked me as a Native American how I felt about the Lawsuit to recover certain mineral deposits. My reply was it does no one any good being in the ground, yet the smallest scar on Mother Earth was the only way I could support any effort like that. In other words am against pit mining. Was asked that because there was resistance in court against the efforts they were pursuing on land.

Two different types of mining here. One by Spain subjects that the King endorsed and one by the Jesuits themselves using Indian labor "For the Glory of God" and the Jesuits themselves. The last did not pay the Royal Tithe and was another reason for expelling them from the "New World". Now the Peralta's were mining in Apachira as it was know then and may well have paid the Royal Tithe. They had many locations that they worked in the Supes (IMO). I doubt that all of the mines were worked out/pinched out. So some of those if found could be worked today, but under the rules of Wilderness, it would have to be a rich mine for the operating costs to be low enough percentage wise to make a profit. If it is an already hard rock shaft then the damage to the surface would be minor. Ie the shaft has already been dug. Any of the ranchers there would love to make "Cash Money" packing the supplies in and the ore out, with guards of course.

 

[sdcfia]

sailaway, Pedro de Peralta, born in 1584 and Governor of New Mexico 1610-1613, neither issued Spanish Land Grants nor had the authority to do so. The first Spanish Land Grant in today's Arizona was given to Toribiro Otero in 1789 for a house and 26 acres at Tubac. AmeriSurv.com - The Spanish Grants of Arizona All other grants recognized by the US were issued by Mexico, not Spain. Your argument to the contrary regarding the "1568 mining claim markers" will only make sense if you can show the alleged Peralta land grant document. I don't believe you can.

As far as the rest of your argument, it rests on a "Jesuit book" and "Peralta mining claim map" allegedly found by Mr. Crawford in the Superstition Mountains, as I understand what you've said, and also some "documents found in Spain". Even if these documents exist, this whole shebang is beginning to sound uncomfortably familiar to another "Peralta Land Grant" in Arizona in the late 1800s that would have given James Reavis and George Willing 18,000 square miles of Arizona and New Mexico. Reavis's documents were determined to be frauds. Whatever Crawford had, or Ryan and the Tumlinson group has, will have to pass muster too in order to be considered seriously.

On another note, people interested in early mining lore ought to educate themselves on the nuts and bolts of mining laws practiced in the New World, particularly in Mexico. There is much available about the subject that contradict many misconceptions held by folks who believe everything they read in treasure magazines, etc. I posted a bibliography on the topic a couple years ago on some other thread. I'm not going to track it down, but it can be found with some digging. Or, better yet, a truth seeker might be better convinced if he research it for himself.

 

[azdave35]

Sounds pretty good if you had spare batteries, you could search an area, then go back and refine the search area. Would need to set an alarm clock for 1/2 life of the battery with a 5-10% fudge factor. Would hate to get excited and loose the drone coming back. Wonder how good they are with thermals?
In Arizona, New Mexico in the mountains the thermals get quite nasty. Fly into El Paso some time and watch the drop as they come into the landing approach. Your stomach will jump right up the first time it happens to you. Worse than flying into John Wayne Airport (Orange County).

the better drones stream wifi back to your cell phone while you fly so you can see where you are going even 2 miles away..it will give you the altitude...distance away and battery life...the dji phantom4 has between 20-25 minutes of flight time...they also have a return home feature so if you lose control of the drone it will automatically return to the point where it was launched..as far as thermals go if you fly in the morning there isn't much thermal activity...

 

[sailaway]

Never said Pedro issued land grants. The land Grant was issued by the King. The mining claims lay within the boundary of that original land Grant. You have seen the Stones and what is on them. If you have a better theory then please let us know what it is. Look in the book Fact and Fiction of the Dutchman's Lost Mine and read the map of Manuel Alejandro Peralta. Even today You do not own a claim on public property, the Mineral Rights are leased from the government. That gives you right to mine that area. Same applied to the Salt River Basin Mines in Spanish Territory. Think of it as if it is a Spanish National Park, land owned by Spain not just Governed. I believe it was considered "set aside" land by the Crown.

 

[sdcfia]

Never said Pedro issued land grants. The land Grant was issued by the King. The mining claims lay within the boundary of that original land Grant. You have seen the Stones and what is on them. If you have a better theory then please let us know what it is. Look in the book Fact and Fiction of the Dutchman's Lost Mine and read the map of Manuel Alejandro Peralta. Even today You do not own a claim on public property, the Mineral Rights are leased from the government. That gives you right to mine that area. Same applied to the Salt River Basin Mines in Spanish Territory. Think of it as if it is a Spanish National Park, land owned by Spain not just Governed. I believe it was considered "set aside" land by the Crown.

OK, sailaway, here is exactly what those stones are: claim corners per US Mineral Survey 1568, surveyed in 1901 by US Mineral Surveyor James Dobbins. The claims are located in the Superstition Mining District, as you can see. The titleblock is shown here, and the link to the GLO records are also included.



https://glorecords.blm.gov/details/survey/default.aspx?dm_id=315021&sid=emrfqo5e.zma

Regardless what the Spaniards and Mexicans did in today's Arizona when they controlled the land, they were defeated by the US in war and lost all prior rights, save the several Mexican Land Grants in the southern part of the state that were acknowledged by the US government. By your reasoning, what's to stop the Dutch from demanding parts of Manhattan Island or the French from trying to get New Orleans back, because before they were pushed out, they owned it?

 

[azdave35]

OK, sailaway, here is exactly what those stones are: claim corners per US Mineral Survey 1568, surveyed in 1901 by US Mineral Surveyor James Dobbins. The claims are located in the Superstition Mining District, as you can see. The titleblock is shown here, and the link to the GLO records are also included.

View attachment 1416555

https://glorecords.blm.gov/details/survey/default.aspx?dm_id=315021&sid=emrfqo5e.zma

Regardless what the Spaniards and Mexicans did in today's Arizona when they controlled the land, they were defeated by the US in war and lost all prior rights, save the several Mexican Land Grants in the southern part of the state that were acknowledged by the US government. By your reasoning, what's to stop the Dutch from demanding parts of Manhattan Island or the French from trying to get New Orleans back, because before they were pushed out, they owned it?

rules of war ...to the victor goes the spoils....in other words....whoever wins the war..takes what he wants

 

[Carl995]

OK, sailaway, here is exactly what those stones are: claim corners per US Mineral Survey 1568, surveyed in 1901 by US Mineral Surveyor James Dobbins. The claims are located in the Superstition Mining District, as you can see. The titleblock is shown here, and the link to the GLO records are also included.

View attachment 1416555

https://glorecords.blm.gov/details/survey/default.aspx?dm_id=315021&sid=emrfqo5e.zma

Regardless what the Spaniards and Mexicans did in today's Arizona when they controlled the land, they were defeated by the US in war and lost all prior rights, save the several Mexican Land Grants in the southern part of the state that were acknowledged by the US government. By your reasoning, what's to stop the Dutch from demanding parts of Manhattan Island or the French from trying to get New Orleans back, because before they were pushed out, they owned it?

That's really cool you found this!! Thanks!!

 

[sdcfia]

That's really cool you found this!! Thanks!!

You can find all sorts of cool stuff on that BLM website.

 

[sailaway]

Thank you for finding the proper information sdcfia regarding information on those stones as it clears up a long time problem. No the French sold the land and the Mexicans lost a war. The Spanish were not involved in the war, so private property of the crown is different. It is the same as ill gotten gains, where one sells property to another yet it was not theirs to sell. it is neither here nor there as was simply exploring into where the Church is headed with Ryan's camp and does not include me. I am no real property attorney (even though I have a relative who is) so my searching into property is limited, without consulting another. I should not concern myself with others issues when I have a huge issue to deal with myself. Thing is am worried I have been too transparent with my own search and others are attempting Piracy.

 

[azdave35]

Thank you for finding the proper information sdcfia regarding information on those stones as it clears up a long time problem. No the French sold the land and the Mexicans lost a war. The Spanish were not involved in the war, so private property of the crown is different. It is the same as ill gotten gains, where one sells property to another yet it was not theirs to sell. it is neither here nor there as was simply exploring into where the Church is headed with Ryan's camp and does not include me. I am no real property attorney (even though I have a relative who is) so my searching into property is limited, without consulting another. I should not concern myself with others issues when I have a huge issue to deal with myself. Thing is am worried I have been too transparent with my own search and others are attempting Piracy.

piracy?...aye matey..they will walk the plank for piracy

 

[somehiker]

Yep, but I'd be more worried about Spanish spies.
Cause they don't play nice, like the rest of us guys do.
Caught these two watchin me just last week.

 

[sailaway]

Did the Spanish Crown own the Tunnel shown on the Ruth/Gonzales -Perfil Map? I will call it Spain's Bank of America, on Crown Land. First off we know the sunken area called the Hoyo was there when the map was drawn so it is not a recent cave in. I have walked the area and see no signs of rock movement, only a natural bowl area leading to a very steep Arroyo/dry creek that ends in a bolder strewn area of the drainage to Fish Creek.
Spain knows of Civil unrest in Mexico and is unwilling to bargain with the Mexicans. Spain recruits General James Wilkinson to find a route around Santa Fe as Agent 13. Wilkinson dispatches Pike to explore a route between the Arkansas and Red rivers. Pike makes it to 75 miles north of Santa Fe. Discovering Pikes Peak along the way. Pike turns around and heads back to Georgia with his map. The first payment in gold from Spain to Wilkinson is lost in route between New Orleans and Kentucky, and Wilkinson goes to New Orleans and complains. Spain claims the gold was buried on land that I believe the description they gave to be the area of the Paducah Gaseous Diffusion Plant facility located in McCracken County, Kentucky. Next payment comes from New Orleans in Mexican Money to Kentucky. Wilkinson brought up on Treason charges, he shows up two weeks early and burns the congressional records. Spain accepts Mexican independence on Aug 24, 1821, this effectively cuts Spain off from the Bank of America. 1/3 of the known Gold in the world falls out of circulation at the same time? Why did Spain need the American Army to explore their own land?
In 1762, during the French and Indian War (1754-63), France ceded French Louisiana west of the Mississippi River to Spain and in 1763 transferred nearly all of its remaining North American holdings to Great Britain. In 1796, Spain allied itself with France, leading Britain to use its powerful navy to cut off Spain from America. In 1801, Spain signed a secret treaty with France to return Louisiana Territory to France. The King of Spain gives Louisiana to the King of France with the promise that France will not sell the territory. This was done to put a barrier between the Americans and Spanish held territory because there was already Americans crossing the Mississippi river into Missouri (Daniel Boone for one). My own Cherokee side of the family went to the cliffs on the north side of the Arkansas river just past today's Fort Smith, Ark. in 1816. Robert Livingston is ordered by President Jefferson the day transfer happened to start negotiations for Louisiana. Talks with the American's started 3 months after France got Louisiana from Spain for the sale. The Louisiana Purchase (French: Vente de la Louisiane "Sale of Louisiana") was the acquisition of the Louisiana territory (828,000 square miles = 2.14 million km²) by the United States from France in 1803.
Capture of the Spanish Xebeque frigate El-Gamo in 1801 off the coast of Barcelona, by the much smaller brig HMS Speedy
Battle of Trafalgar, 3 hours that destroyed the Spanish Empire (Oct. 21, 1805), naval engagement of a fleet of 33 ships (18 French and 15 Spanish) under Admiral Pierre de Villeneuve fought a British fleet of 27 ships under Admiral Horatio Nelson. There are still gold coins that wash up on the beach at Cadiz when there is heavy surf, originating from the crippled ships attempting to make port. The coins can be found below the cliffs on Rota Navel Air Station after waves large enough send spray over them. It acts like a shaker table and the ground actually shakes from the impact of the waves.
Many Hurricanes sink the Spanish Treasure Fleet.
https://www.jstor.org/stable/1836831
6,700,000 results online for General James Wilkinson

Treaty of San Ildefonso 1800

https://energy.gov/pppo/paducah-site

I have read many accounts of people claiming to have found the tunnel. What marks the tunnel? The entrance is memorialized with a plaque with a cross on it. Is that the Royal coat of arms beside the cross on a scroll? Only royalty could use that coat of arms to mark property.

 

[Eldo]

rules of war ...to the victor goes the spoils....in other words....whoever wins the war..takes what he wants

Sounds like a Confederate Rally in here.......Last Time I Checked You Historians Hunting Treasure Were Told Otherwise......

So many people dream up their own "Legends" to protect their "Perilous Enterprise".... even the claim to "figuring it all out" is the course for its own little war of words these days.

Perilous Enterprise

ESTA BEREDA ES MUY Peligroza......

HMMM

 

[Auhunt]

There alot to find out there just takes time an a box to think outside side of.happy hunting

 

[Auhunt]

Interesting read plz go on.

 

[sailaway]

For those that are interested you can see a hand drawn sketch of the exact same tunnel as my photo in Greg Davis's Private Lost Dutchman's files. When I first saw it I wondered why it was in there, even though I already had my photo in the above post.

For those researching the Sombrero Mines here is one of the locations, zoom in and you may find yourself wondering why you could not see this before as photo was taken from the vehicle on 88 just before FR213. This is the west bank of Fish Creek within the Lower Sombrero area.

Please observe these as National Monuments because if we all went there to take a rock sample, would ruin it. Look at the south eye for ore, Crocodile is behind mans head. Yes, I know this rock formation is named for a famous native american. My photos are natural with no filters or digital enhancements, many are simply cropped from larger photos. Remember the way to find load deposits is look for Quartz Dykes as Volcanic Intrusive then look at the intersection of Faults cutting across the Dykes plane.