LDM, OZ, & CALALUS

Hal

I am not obsessed with the Tucson artifacts and I have told only my opinion . For sure are odd and hard to decrypt , and for sure some wanted to use them like a piece from the roots of their specific religion .
I believe the artifacts are part of the Central America ( and south US ) history but for now don't exist many proofs to state this . I believe and I hope how one day this story will be cleared up and the people will see them to the Museum like what they really are .


markmar,

I did not mean to imply that you were "obsessed" with the story. After reading the thread, I simply tried to offer you one possible explanation to your question of "why". Unfortunately, I spent some time believing that the objects and their supporting story might be authentic. Research and a conversation with those perpetuating the story quickly convinced me otherwise. That's a shame because I do believe in very early contact with people from the east. The objects and those that promote them as something more make a complete mockery of history and those searching for truth.

The only aspect of the discovery that might be controversial is the material in which they were found and even that is explained when it is pulverized, mixed with H2o, and allowed to dehydrate back into something resembling its original form.
 

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Hal

To claim something a mockery of history or fake , the specific scientists should have 100% evidences to state this . But when exist a small percent of doubt and a small evidence how the artifacts could be original , then a new legend is born .

Happy New Year to you and to every treasure hunter and their families !
 

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Hal

To claim something a mockery of history or fake , the specific scientists should have 100% evidences to state this . But when exist a small percent of doubt and a small evidence how the artifacts could be original , then a new legend is born .

Happy New Year to you and to every treasure hunter and their families !

 

markmar,

I am obviously not a scientist but I thought that you might appreciate a response formed by applying scientific reasoning.

First, I needed to learn about calcic horizons and the conditions in which they form. Joseph R. McAuliffe's work on Sonoran Desert soils is, in my now educated opinion, about as helpful as it gets.

"Many desert soils contain prominent, whitish layers called calcic horizons. These are accumulations of calcium carbonate, the same material found in chalk, concrete, and agricultural lime. In the Sonoran Desert, the tops of these horizons are typically less than twenty to forty inches (50 to 100 cm) below the soil surface. Calcic horizons may be very thin (six inches; 15 cm) in some soils and contain only small amounts of calcium carbonate. In other soils, these horizons may be very thick (greater than three feet; 1 m) and strongly cemented. These nearly impenetrable, cemented layers, or petrocalcic horizons, are commonly called caliche."

According to McAuliffe, scientist have only recently demonstrated the role of wind, calcium carbonate dust particles, and precipitation in the formation of these calcic horizons (caliche). It's a slow, continuous process taking thousands of years to form.

Think about this for a moment. Countless thin coatings of this chalk like dust being washed down into the desert sub-soils by rain, and over long periods of time, and by chemical reaction, transforming into these hard, cement like whitish calcic horizons.

"The amount of precipitation that infiltrates into the soil is the most important factor that determines the depth to which calcium carbonate is transported and accumulates."

Annually, Tucson receives about ten inches of rain.

"In relatively moist parts of the Sonoran Desert, such as areas near Tucson, Arizona, where annual precipitation averages ten inches (25 cm) or more, calcium carbonate tends to accumulate at depths exceeding ten inches (25 cm)".

If this is correct, any undisturbed caliche deposit at the kiln site should begin at depths greater than ten inches. Meaning, there should be at least ten inches of soils covering the caliche. That was not the case. Compare this to the photograph, this time paying attention to the soil depth (the thin dark band above the caliche). It measures four to six inches at best.

The "small hill" from which the objects were taken was actually an abandoned materials mound.

At the time of their discovery, the positioning of the Silverbell Road objects "beneath layers of undisturbed caliche" perplexed even the most adamant skeptics. The fact that they were found in (or beneath?) the Pleistocene deposit (2.4 million to 11,000 years old) bearing inscriptions dating to the year 775 or 800 (AD) made absolutely no sense. And still, thats where they were found. Had the objects been discovered closer to the surface, in the Holocene deposits (less than 11,000 years), opinions today would be much different.

It didn't happen that way. The impossible discovery level and the fact that hallow cavities were reported around several of the object was, for skeptics, a red flag. However, based on the testimony of those who actually witnessed the excavations and according to several professionals, the objects were clearly encrusted in caliche.

The result was a general confusion and suspicion that eventually lead to accusations of fraud. Personally, I believe that the finger pointing was unjustified.

I am convinced that the objects were encased in material (caliche?) and found exactly as reported only, the encasement occurred sometime in the 1890's. The small mound could not have contained a Paleocene deposit, only something that came to resembled one.

Remember at one time, this was the site of six reported lime kilns. Thousands of pounds of abandoned processed and raw materials hauled from the Tucson Mountains would have been piled there. In thirty years (and 300+ inches of rain), this undisturbed, abandon "mass" would have eventually melted, dissolved, and reformed into something resembling a Paleocene deposit. The process continues today and the kiln operation has, for the most part, disappeared back into the earth.

The people involved in the search at the time could hardly appreciate the location that they were working. Did they know about the six kilns that once stood there (only one remains) or the fact that the lime kiln operation was directly responsible for deforesting much of the Tucson area? The amount of material processed at the sight must have been enormous.

If the objects were discovered as reported, and not "planted" during the dig, and if the inscribed dates are "correct" (not real) this is the only possible "scientific" explanation. The objects were made and buried in the mound of caliche material some thirty years before their discovery. About the same time these kilns were shut down by concerned ranchers.

As to the identity of the rascal responsible for the objects, I have a name for the hat, but it's only a guess at this point.

I don't see any need to write about the inscriptions found on the objects as that argument has been well covered by others here on TNet, and in the media, and the problems are numerous.

It's a strange fantasy, perpetuated by people who care little for historical accuracy and even less for those they string along with offers of obtaining some secret, reserved knowledge. It's nonsense.

You are correct about one thing. The objects are now undeniably part of the history of the American Southwest.

Photograph: JM Hunter The Tucson Artifacts
 

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Hal,

"I am convinced that the objects were encased in material (caliche?) and found exactly as reported only, the encasement occurred sometime in the 1890's. The small mound could not have contained a Paleocene deposit, only something that came to resembled one."

That would be around the time of the early Mormon's in Arizona.

You are correct about doubting the placement (depth) of the artifacts in the caliche. The other problem it presents is the wide difference in depth of the various artifacts.

Good work,

Joe
 

markmar,

I am obviously not a scientist but I thought that you might appreciate a response formed by applying scientific reasoning.

First, I needed to learn about calcic horizons and the conditions in which they form. Joseph R. McAuliffe's work on Sonoran Desert soils is, in my now educated opinion, about as helpful as it gets.

"Many desert soils contain prominent, whitish layers called calcic horizons. These are accumulations of calcium carbonate, the same material found in chalk, concrete, and agricultural lime. In the Sonoran Desert, the tops of these horizons are typically less than twenty to forty inches (50 to 100 cm) below the soil surface. Calcic horizons may be very thin (six inches; 15 cm) in some soils and contain only small amounts of calcium carbonate. In other soils, these horizons may be very thick (greater than three feet; 1 m) and strongly cemented. These nearly impenetrable, cemented layers, or petrocalcic horizons, are commonly called caliche."

According to McAuliffe, scientist have only recently demonstrated the role of wind, calcium carbonate dust particles, and precipitation in the formation of these calcic horizons (caliche). It's a slow, continuous process taking thousands of years to form.

Think about this for a moment. Countless thin coatings of this chalk like dust being washed down into the desert sub-soils by rain, and over long periods of time, and by chemical reaction, transforming into these hard, cement like whitish calcic horizons.

"The amount of precipitation that infiltrates into the soil is the most important factor that determines the depth to which calcium carbonate is transported and accumulates."

Annually, Tucson receives about ten inches of rain.

"In relatively moist parts of the Sonoran Desert, such as areas near Tucson, Arizona, where annual precipitation averages ten inches (25 cm) or more, calcium carbonate tends to accumulate at depths exceeding ten inches (25 cm)".

If this is correct, any undisturbed caliche deposit at the kiln site should begin at depths greater than ten inches. Meaning, there should be at least ten inches of soils covering the caliche. That was not the case. Compare this to the photograph, this time paying attention to the soil depth (the thin dark band above the caliche). It measures four to six inches at best.

The "small hill" from which the objects were taken was actually an abandoned materials mound.

At the time of their discovery, the positioning of the Silverbell Road objects "beneath layers of undisturbed caliche" perplexed even the most adamant skeptics. The fact that they were found in (or beneath?) the Pleistocene deposit (2.4 million to 11,000 years old) bearing inscriptions dating to the year 775 or 800 (AD) made absolutely no sense. And still, thats where they were found. Had the objects been discovered closer to the surface, in the Holocene deposits (less than 11,000 years), opinions today would be much different.

It didn't happen that way. The impossible discovery level and the fact that hallow cavities were reported around several of the object was, for skeptics, a red flag. However, based on the testimony of those who actually witnessed the excavations and according to several professionals, the objects were clearly encrusted in caliche.

The result was a general confusion and suspicion that eventually lead to accusations of fraud. Personally, I believe that the finger pointing was unjustified.

I am convinced that the objects were encased in material (caliche?) and found exactly as reported only, the encasement occurred sometime in the 1890's. The small mound could not have contained a Paleocene deposit, only something that came to resembled one.

Remember at one time, this was the site of six reported lime kilns. Thousands of pounds of abandoned processed and raw materials hauled from the Tucson Mountains would have been piled there. In thirty years (and 300+ inches of rain), this undisturbed, abandon "mass" would have eventually melted, dissolved, and reformed into something resembling a Paleocene deposit. The process continues today and the kiln operation has, for the most part, disappeared back into the earth.

The people involved in the search at the time could hardly appreciate the location that they were working. Did they know about the six kilns that once stood there (only one remains) or the fact that the lime kiln operation was directly responsible for deforesting much of the Tucson area? The amount of material processed at the sight must have been enormous.

If the objects were discovered as reported, and not "planted" during the dig, and if the inscribed dates are "correct" (not real) this is the only possible "scientific" explanation. The objects were made and buried in the mound of caliche material some thirty years before their discovery. About the same time these kilns were shut down by concerned ranchers.

As to the identity of the rascal responsible for the objects, I have a name for the hat, but it's only a guess at this point.

I don't see any need to write about the inscriptions found on the objects as that argument has been well covered by others here on TNet, and in the media, and the problems are numerous.

It's a strange fantasy, perpetuated by people who care little for historical accuracy and even less for those they string along with offers of obtaining some secret, reserved knowledge. It's nonsense.

You are correct about one thing. The objects are now undeniably part of the history of the American Southwest.

Photograph: JM Hunter The Tucson Artifacts

That is a great post Hal, very well written. :notworthy: :notworthy: :notworthy: :thumbsup: "Like" was not a strong enough compliment IMHO.
 

From the photo it looks like the recovery was from the side of a hill. Reminds me of a hole my friend dug nugget shooting. Under four foot of that crap found a tin can. The spot was next to a wash. The can worked its way under the layer.
 

Hal

From a scientific angle , in normal conditions , you could be right . But , when the human intervention is present , then , the scientific explanation should be mixed with other new possibilities .
And I believe so , how every region has his own soil particularity and is wrong to put a single label for a large territory like the Sonora Desert .
 

LDM, OZ, & CALALUS

Science is often proven wrong especially when it comes to the age of deposits etc... Even Gold deposits in some theory's form a lot faster than the thousands or millions of years science assumes...watched some pretty interesting lectures about the relation to fault lines and mineral deposits...we just don't understand enough about what is really happening

The right combination of sediment could easily form a thick hard crust over a matter of a few years imo...especially as violent as some of the monsoon foods can be...
 

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You mean radio carbon dating? Yeah it been proven to be flawed in a lot of cases...for one thing there is no long term control test to verify its accuracy just because the test has not been around for long enough...it's just widely accepted..it's really just a theory IMO...there's a lot more going on that we don't even come close to understanding. There have been tests that carbon dated some plant life that was less than a few years old as millions of years old. I used to do a lot of research on the subject...definitely a deep rabbit hole to get into...
 

You mean radio carbon dating? Yeah it been proven to be flawed in a lot of cases...for one thing there is no long term control test to verify its accuracy just because the test has not been around for long enough...it's just widely accepted..it's really just a theory IMO...there's a lot more going on that we don't even come close to understanding. There have been tests that carbon dated some plant life that was less than a few years old as millions of years old. I used to do a lot of research on the subject...definitely a deep rabbit hole to get into...

Uhm ...Yeah. NO.

Please read this, then start over.

dating | geochronology :: Principles of isotopic dating | Encyclopedia Britannica

Would you believe that back in the 80's I gave a presentation to a state college on this?
 

LDM, OZ, & CALALUS

I don't want to bore you with too much science nerdy stuff but it took me about 30 seconds to find some articles..and the quote above is a good example of things that suggest it's not that accurate. And there is a lot of scientific proof against it...but the science community still seems to look the other way when it's proven fallible...just sayin. I'm by far not an expert but I always questioned the way the word millions and billions of years is thrown around and I definitely found plenty of evidence to support my suspicions.

For one thing the atmosphere is polluted and we have no way to measure the effect of the Suns cosmic rays etc from 1000 or 100000 years ago...

Also taken from one article-


There are various other radiometric dating methods used today to give ages of millions or billions of years for rocks. These
techniques, unlike carbon dating, mostly use the relative concentrations of parent and daughter products in radioactive decay chains. For example, potassium-40 decays to argon-40; uranium-238 decays to lead-206 via other elements like radium; uranium-235 decays to lead-207; rubidium-87 decays to strontium-87; etc. These techniques are applied to igneous rocks, and are normally seen as giving the time since solidification.

The isotope concentrations can be measured very accurately, but isotope concentrations are not dates. To derive ages from such measurements, unprovable assumptions have to be made such as:

The starting conditions are known (for example, that there was no daughter isotope present at the start, or that we know how much was there).

Decay rates have always been constant.

Systems were closed or isolated so that no parent or daughter isotopes were lost or added.

And on and on...

Another good article
http://www.icr.org/article/its-official-radioactive-isotope-dating/
 

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I don't want to bore you with too much science nerdy stuff but it took me about 30 seconds to find some articles..and the quote above is a good example of things that suggest it's not that accurate. And there is a lot of scientific proof against it...but the science community still seems to look the other way when it's proven fallible...just sayin. I'm by far not an expert but I always questioned the way the word millions and billions of years is thrown around and I definitely found plenty of evidence to support my suspicions.

For one thing the atmosphere is polluted and we have no way to measure the effect of the Suns cosmic rays etc from 1000 or 100000 years ago...

Also taken from one article-


There are various other radiometric dating methods used today to give ages of millions or billions of years for rocks. These
techniques, unlike carbon dating, mostly use the relative concentrations of parent and daughter products in radioactive decay chains. For example, potassium-40 decays to argon-40; uranium-238 decays to lead-206 via other elements like radium; uranium-235 decays to lead-207; rubidium-87 decays to strontium-87; etc. These techniques are applied to igneous rocks, and are normally seen as giving the time since solidification.

The isotope concentrations can be measured very accurately, but isotope concentrations are not dates. To derive ages from such measurements, unprovable assumptions have to be made such as:

The starting conditions are known (for example, that there was no daughter isotope present at the start, or that we know how much was there).

Decay rates have always been constant.

Systems were closed or isolated so that no parent or daughter isotopes were lost or added.

And on and on...

Let me know when you figure out how to alter the rates of decay. I promise I can then make you a rich person.
 

LDM, OZ, & CALALUS

Just do a lil more digging like I said. I edited the above with a pretty recent article too

Btw cosmic rays have a direct effect on c14 decay rate;)
 

One last I promise I will stop..

Although it is apparent that millions of years worth of decay—at today’s slow rates—has occurred in isotope decay systems, it is clear that that the decay occurred rapidly, during a period of extreme acceleration. Only in this way could Helium have become trapped in granites,8 Polonium radiohalos have left their signatures,9 and other microscopic scars called “fission tracks” have formed.10
 

One last I promise I will stop..

Although it is apparent that millions of years worth of decay—at today’s slow rates—has occurred in isotope decay systems, it is clear that that the decay occurred rapidly, during a period of extreme acceleration. Only in this way could Helium have become trapped in granites,8 Polonium radiohalos have left their signatures,9 and other microscopic scars called “fission tracks” have formed.10

Would you like me to recommend a good college?
 

LDM, OZ, & CALALUS

Like many just don't look at the proof to the contrary just like the mainstream science community seems to love to do...But even a broken clock is right twice a day right?

I was actually an engineering student I just always was fascinated by geology and astronomy...
 

Like many just don't look at the proof to the contrary just like the mainstream science community seems to love to do...But even a broken clock is right twice a day right?

I was actually an engineering student I just always was fascinated by geology and astronomy...

OK. Then what happened?
 

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