"La Magdalena" and other wrecks full of treasure in the east coast of Fl

[Peg Leg]

Re: "La Magdalena" and other wrecks full of treasure in the east coast of Fl

I just made contact with a couple of people attending Flagler College in St. Augustine through a Real Estate Company that I am dealing with AND BOTH speak and read SPAINISH.
They are interested in Research. I will be meeting both tomorrow in St. Augustine.
I am talking a few artefacts (coins) to really get their blood flowing. This could develope into something useful.
Later
Peg leg

 

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[ivan salis]

Re: "La Magdalena" and other wrecks full of treasure in the east coast of Fl

having some one that si habla espanol is a plus when reading old spanish stuff amigo

 

[Rusty Sailor]

Re: "La Magdalena" and other wrecks full of treasure in the east coast of Fl

I think that " old man " knows where approx. the fishermen pulled up that cannon. He knows of fishermen that were bringing up pieces of eight in their nets there also.

 

[Chagy]

Re: "La Magdalena" and other wrecks full of treasure in the east coast of Fl

I think that " old man " knows where approx. the fishermen pulled up that cannon. He knows of fishermen that were bringing up pieces of eight in their nets there also.

Hello Rusty,

The information on the fisherman, the cannon and the coins is a quote of the book "Shipwrecks in Florida Waters" by R. Marx pag 68...no one really knows where Marx got the information...I have tried to find old newspapers, THing magazines, etc, etc. but I have not been able to find any article about it....

All the best,

Chagy.....

 

[FISHEYE]

Re: "La Magdalena" and other wrecks full of treasure in the east coast of Fl

Chagy,

Maybe you need to talk to "old man" Marx.ask him if the fisherman is still around that he talked to.

Also if anyone has any archival documents that are in archiac spanish they need translated.my next door neighbor is from spain.she can read all that stuff.

 

[Chagy]

Re: "La Magdalena" and other wrecks full of treasure in the east coast of Fl

Chagy,

Maybe you need to talk to "old man" Marx.ask him if the fisherman is still around that he talked to.

Maybe Tom Gidus can be able to help me there, he visits Marx every once in a while.....
Tom next time you go to see Marx can you please ask him about the 1500s cannon story.... this was back in 1983
I still got some DR cigars for you

 

[mad4wrecks]

Re: "La Magdalena" and other wrecks full of treasure in the east coast of Fl

As a matter of fact, I am scheduled to see him early next month. I'll see what I can come up with.

 

[barney]

Re: "La Magdalena" and other wrecks full of treasure in the east coast of Fl

Yes, definitely an old thread, but I was wondering about a couple questions...

Did LA MADALENA (LA MADELENA [sic]; Singer from Marx) wreck off Canaveral or near the Bay of Montecristi, Dominican Republic in 1563, or are these two separate vessels? Is the Canaveral wreck LA MAGDALENA (Captain Cristobal Rodríquez) different from the DR wreck, LA MADALENA (Captain Cristobal Rodríquez Garrucho), per Bobadilla, or is there some duplication and spelling errors producing a phantom wreck somewhere? Any clarification would be appreciated....

Also, Singer (from Marx) cites the loss of several vessels off Rio Palmas (Florida) in 1554, one of which was SANTA MARIA DE YCIAR. There was a SANTA MARIA DE YCIAR lost off Padre Island along with a few others in 1554. So, again are we dealing with two vessels with identical names or was there an erroneous entry producing a phantom wreck? I guess its possible, but you can't blame raised suspicions at two wrecks of the same name being wrecked in the same year in two different places....

Thanks in advance for any clarification or additional (cited/referenced) information!

Cheers,
Mike

 

[mad4wrecks]

Re: "La Magdalena" and other wrecks full of treasure in the east coast of Fl

Mike, Rio Palmas (Florida) is the same latitude as Padre Island. I think Marx got the location mixed up in his first book and Singer copied it. The 1554 fleet went down off Padre Island and those 3 ships were (tentatively) identified.

 

[barney]

Re: "La Magdalena" and other wrecks full of treasure in the east coast of Fl

Mike, Rio Palmas (Florida) is the same latitude as Padre Island. I think Marx got the location mixed up in his first book and Singer copied it. The 1554 fleet went down off Padre Island and those 3 ships were (tentatively) identified.

Gotcha - thanks for confirming one suspicion. The Padre Island wrecks were listed as:

ESPIRUTU SANTO
SAN ESTEBAN
SANTA MARIA DE YCIAR

Singer (from Marx) lists the three as:

SANTA MARIA DEL CAMINO
SAN ESTEVA
SANTA MARIA DE YCIAR

Any idea on the difference in the first name in Singer/Marx's list (CAMINO), or was that possibly a synonym for the ESPIRUTU SANTO?

Thanks again - that's at least a couple phantom wreck entries I can scratch....

Cheers,
Mike

 

[itmaiden]

Re: More wrecks full of treasure in the east coast of Fl

The French at Fort Caroline "acquired" a couple of Spanish "sugar boats". Really ticked off Menendez. You know the rest of the story.

itmaiden

La Madelena was reportedly lost on a shoal near cape canaveral* only 16 out of 300 survived --- source -- singers "shipwrecks of florida" -- he uses as his source-- marx's book "spanish treasure in florida waters, a billion dollar graveyard" 1979 -- later "updated" in 1985 and retitled as "shipwrecks in florida waters" --the part about it being lost near the cape canveral area must be in the 1979 book --the updated one fails to say where it was lost at oddly-- humm

the unnamed nao lost in 1600 was french built according to marxs "shipwrecks in the americas"

don't know if its the same "San Ignacio" but potter talks about a ship by that name in 12 ft of water near duck key P 229 (#36)---(no date of sinking but I think its a 1733 fleet wreck by the same "religious" name as that of the earlier vessel which is of course quite common)--- what makes me think that is potter has it linked with the San Fernando* P.228 (#33) off coffin's patch --*Chuck Mitchell of key largo said that he and others moved to marathon and dove 5 months before hitting the San Fernando -- said they found two 1732 pillar coins and many dated cobs found as well as a silver sword and many other items --

interesting note in his book "shipwrecks in florida waters" on p 70 (#25)-- marx notes that in 1571* or 2 that a letter written by was written by* Adelantado Pedro Menendez de Aviles (translated by --Jeanette Thrubar Conner in 1925 for the fla hist soc -- on page 31 vol 1 of a 2 vol set -- titled --"Colonial Records of Spanish Florida") -- that two ships going from mexico to santo domingo?* for a cargo of sugar and hides* was hit by a storm off of cape canveral*? and sank and most of the men were killed by indains while trying to return to st augustine 30 leagues away (30 leagues is 78 miles at 2.6 miles to the spanish leauge)-- I find it odd that if they were after sugar and hides* and going from mexico to santo domingo* ( a fairly straight across voyage) -- then how in gods name did they get so off course as to sink near cape canaveral? hummm --very strange--what if sugar and hides were code words being used for gold and silver? -- could the two vessels really be the two 1571 treasure galleons possibly? ( the offical record states that they didn't get to try a salvage ops for seveal months and nothing was found -- maybe because they were lost in area full of a lot of hostile indains? and the indains looted the wrecksites which is why nothing was found by them later) seems like he would not be bothered so much by a couple of sugar and hide ships -- and the question remains--- if they going "from mexico bound for santo domingo for sugar and hides""--then why they were lost near the cape? this is very very far from where they should have been at -- the area would be more likely the area where treasure ships would be lost travelling on thier return voyage loaded with treasure forr spain ,,, just thinking,,, Ivan

 

[itmaiden]

Re: More wrecks full of treasure in the east coast of Fl

I found a ton of information on the Bahamas and wrecks there, some "initiated" by island residents, and then there are the shipwrecks like the Atocha that wrecked in what was known as the "Bahama Channel".

itmaiden

Well I was able to verify the existence of "La Magdalena" in "Seville et l'Atlantique" "Le trafic de 1561 a 1595
1563R page 44

Then in "Armada Espanola" by Duro Vol II page 465 I was able to confirm that the vessel belonged to the fleet of Juan Mendez it says that 5 vessels were lost near Bahamas....but thats all it says.....
it does have a source: Reg. del C. de I., fol. 68.

In Marx book it says that there were 16 suvivors but it does not say where did they arrive
he does give a source: AGI, contratacion, legajo 2899

Also Marx talks about a shrimpboat that in 1983 snagged a bronze cannon dated 1500s
Does anyone here know anything about this story?

All the best,

Chagy......

 

[barney]

Re: More wrecks full of treasure in the east coast of Fl

Sorry, I was looking for sources other than Marx/Singer. Marx's referenced letter would actually support Bobadilla's work that LA MADALENA was lost off the DR and not Canaveral. Perhaps really LA MAGDALENA and the events got smeared together, resulting in the confusion?

The French at Fort Caroline "acquired" a couple of Spanish "sugar boats". Really ticked off Menendez. You know the rest of the story.

itmaiden

La Madelena was reportedly lost on a shoal near cape canaveral* only 16 out of 300 survived --- source -- singers "shipwrecks of florida" -- he uses as his source-- marx's book "spanish treasure in florida waters, a billion dollar graveyard" 1979 -- later "updated" in 1985 and retitled as "shipwrecks in florida waters" --the part about it being lost near the cape canveral area must be in the 1979 book --the updated one fails to say where it was lost at oddly-- humm

the unnamed nao lost in 1600 was french built according to marxs "shipwrecks in the americas"

don't know if its the same "San Ignacio" but potter talks about a ship by that name in 12 ft of water near duck key P 229 (#36)---(no date of sinking but I think its a 1733 fleet wreck by the same "religious" name as that of the earlier vessel which is of course quite common)--- what makes me think that is potter has it linked with the San Fernando* P.228 (#33) off coffin's patch --*Chuck Mitchell of key largo said that he and others moved to marathon and dove 5 months before hitting the San Fernando -- said they found two 1732 pillar coins and many dated cobs found as well as a silver sword and many other items --

interesting note in his book "shipwrecks in florida waters" on p 70 (#25)-- marx notes that in 1571* or 2 that a letter written by was written by* Adelantado Pedro Menendez de Aviles (translated by --Jeanette Thrubar Conner in 1925 for the fla hist soc -- on page 31 vol 1 of a 2 vol set -- titled --"Colonial Records of Spanish Florida") -- that two ships going from mexico to santo domingo?* for a cargo of sugar and hides* was hit by a storm off of cape canveral*? and sank and most of the men were killed by indains while trying to return to st augustine 30 leagues away (30 leagues is 78 miles at 2.6 miles to the spanish leauge)-- I find it odd that if they were after sugar and hides* and going from mexico to santo domingo* ( a fairly straight across voyage) -- then how in gods name did they get so off course as to sink near cape canaveral? hummm --very strange--what if sugar and hides were code words being used for gold and silver? -- could the two vessels really be the two 1571 treasure galleons possibly? ( the offical record states that they didn't get to try a salvage ops for seveal months and nothing was found -- maybe because they were lost in area full of a lot of hostile indains? and the indains looted the wrecksites which is why nothing was found by them later) seems like he would not be bothered so much by a couple of sugar and hide ships -- and the question remains--- if they going "from mexico bound for santo domingo for sugar and hides""--then why they were lost near the cape? this is very very far from where they should have been at -- the area would be more likely the area where treasure ships would be lost travelling on thier return voyage loaded with treasure forr spain ,,, just thinking,,, Ivan

 

[barney]

Re: "La Magdalena" and other wrecks full of treasure in the east coast of Fl

If LA MAGDALENA was part of the Nueva Espana fleet that departed Havana around August 11, 1563, and reportedly was struck by a hurricane around September 10, then the fleet should have been well north of Canaveral by that time, yes? I have seen information indicating between three and five vessels lost. Also, I believe there is speculation Teddy Tucker discovered Menendez's capitana off Bermuda. Unless there were multiple storm events, this is not really adding up...

 

[chipveres]

Re: "La Magdalena" and other wrecks full of treasure in the east coast of Fl

Gentlemen:

Mad4Wrecks is 100% right in placing Rio Palmas at Padre Island, TX. On old maps, what we call Rio Grande was sometimes labled Rio Palmas. The rub is that the Spanish considered everything vaguely north and east of Mexico as "Florida". That is how Marx came to report Texas wrecks as Florida wrecks.

Chip V.

 

[Vox veritas]

Re: "La Magdalena" and other wrecks full of treasure in the east coast of Fl

If LA MAGDALENA was part of the Nueva Espana fleet that departed Havana around August 11, 1563, and reportedly was struck by a hurricane around September 10, then the fleet should have been well north of Canaveral by that time, yes? I have seen information indicating between three and five vessels lost. Also, I believe there is speculation Teddy Tucker discovered Menendez's capitana off Bermuda. Unless there were multiple storm events, this is not really adding up...

Barney, there is great confusion with Menendez. In 1563 his son Juan commanded the fleet of Nueva España (not the father) and his capitana disappeared into a key of Bahamas. About Bermuda, this island is mentioned in documents of the period referred to, but not because the loss occurred nearby.

 

[barney]

Re: "La Magdalena" and other wrecks full of treasure in the east coast of Fl

Yes, I am aware we are talking about Juan and not Pedro, who obviously survived to kick some ass a few years later. But what about the Tucker claim? It should take no more than 10 days to clear Bahamas/Canaveral, so the dates are a bit confusing too.
Apparently the bulk of the fleet made it damaged to the Azores or back to Spain. I would assume there is more accurate information out there with dates, details, etc.? Some state only 2, maybe three ships were lost (capitana and one or two others, one I suppose being MAGDALENA).
Just trying to clear up some of these wrecking records....
Thanks,
Mike

If LA MAGDALENA was part of the Nueva Espana fleet that departed Havana around August 11, 1563, and reportedly was struck by a hurricane around September 10, then the fleet should have been well north of Canaveral by that time, yes? I have seen information indicating between three and five vessels lost. Also, I believe there is speculation Teddy Tucker discovered Menendez's capitana off Bermuda. Unless there were multiple storm events, this is not really adding up...

Barney, there is great confusion with Menendez. In 1563 his son Juan commanded the fleet of Nueva España (not the father) and his capitana disappeared into a key of Bahamas. About Bermuda, this island is mentioned in documents of the period referred to, but not because the loss occurred nearby.

 

[inletsurf]

Re: More wrecks full of treasure in the east coast of Fl

I know theres a wreck off daytona somewhere in 300 feet of water with gold bars.a friend that owned a dive shop had 2 guys come in an wanted him to teach them trimix.they had a 10lb gold bar they showed him an said they snagged it in a shrimp net in 300 feet of water off daytona 30 something miles out somewhere.the 2 guys werent even scuba divers so he told them he would have to teach them everything before the trimix course.he never heard from them again.the gold bar had no markings an they also said that they did some research an there was 4 other ships from a fleet in the same area.i did some poking around down at the docks at the port.the shrimpers there arent very friendly.i do know a few people that have gps snag hits that i can get a hold of.they are worth checking out.havent heard of anyone working a wreck site off daytona,so they may have givin up.

I have a book of those snag hits and let me tell you man, there's a LOT of them. Not only that, but they're anywhere from 500 to 1500 feet off in any direction, due to the distance between the loran or gps antenna and where the nets snag the structure/reef. I have had mixed luck with finding those snags (for fishing)...some have been impossible to find (bad number or covered up), or they have been gold mines of fish. Either way, I assume you guys would mag it to be sure so being covered up isn't really an issue.

 

[GOHO]

Re: "La Magdalena" and other wrecks full of treasure in the east coast of Fl

The "La Madalena" commanded by Capt. Cristobal Rodriguez wrecked in 1563 is not in Florida... It wrecked on the north coast of the Dominican Republic....

 

[Bobadilla]

Re: "La Magdalena" and other wrecks full of treasure in the east coast of Fl

Hello,

Regarding the shipwreck of "La Madalena" from the 1563 fleet, I can add just the following:
The fleet set sail from San Lucar in Spain on the 24-29th of March of 1563. Departure took 5 days because there were in total of 36 ships plus three more that parted from Cadiz. They arrived to Cartagena on the 30th of June of the same year, they left Cartagena harbor on the 8th of July and arrived to Nombre de Dios on the 13th July of 1563.

There were three ships of the same name in this fleet:
1) “La Madalena”, nao of 150 tons under command of Hernando de Heredia, port of destination the New Spain
2) “La Madalena”, nao of 250 tons with master Baltazar de Jaen, also with final destination of harbors of the New Spain
3) “La Madalena”, nao of 250 tons commanded by Diego Garcia which headed for Tierra Firme.

Complete fleet loaded with treasures from the New World under the command of Juan Menendez de Aviles finally gathered in La Habana. Part of the fleet arrived from Veracruz and part from Cartagena, three ships came from Honduras, five from Montecristi and 11 from Santo Domingo. They set sail together for Spain on the 11th of August of 1563. In total there were 63 ships leaving Cuba.

There were also three ships of the same name of “La Madalena” in the fleet leaving for Spain, one of them came to the rendezvous to La Habana from Santo Domingo, it was “La Madalena”, nao/urca of 250 tons under the command of Miguel de Hurriaga, one came from Honduras, “Santa Madalena”, galleon of 300 ton under the command of Miguel de la Rea and the third one was “La Madalena”, nao of 250 tons under the command of Cristobal Rodriguez Garrucho. There seems to be only one real treasure ship from these three “Madalenas” and it was no doubt “La Madalena” under the command of Cristobal Rodriguez Garrucho. All the historical documents speak about the same ship because she can be identified by her master, Cristobal Rodriguez, who is always mentioned.

The three ships that proceeded to La Habana from Honduras were “Santa Madalena” (Miguel de Rea), “San Jorge”, galleon of 250 tons with Pedro Camina as a master, and finally “Santa Maria de Guadalupe”, galleon of 250 tons with Salvador Gomez as her master.

Royal clerks in Mexico wrote a letter to the Spanish king on the 15th of September of 1563 where they announced that “…lot of coins was sent on board of the fleet of Juan Menendez…..” (Archive of the Indies in Seville (AGI). Indiferente General, 2.006).

According to the ship´s register from Seville archive the fleet was surprised with strong hurricane after leaving the Florida straights on the 7th of September of 1563 and this hurricane lasted for several days.

“La Madalena” of Cristobal Rodriguez Garrucho is definitely confirmed to be shipwrecked. There were 300 persons on board and only 16 of them survived in a small boat. The nao carried 28 bronze cannons and when she sank there was in her storerooms:
- 50 tons of silver in bullion and coins
- 1,110 pounds of gold in jewelry and small ingots
- 170 bars of silver
- 6,000 pesos in silver jewelry like candle sticks
- Many personal valuables of passengers

Six months after the sinking a salvage ship was sent from La Habana to search for the shipwreck but it failed to find traces of her or her cargo…..Some of the historical documents show that "La Madalena" was one of the five ships that separated from the fleet during the hurricane trying to reach the port of Montrecristi and she was supposed to be lost there.

I hope it helps a little....

Best regards,
Lobo (Bobadilla)