KGC and freemasons the same thing???

[Walker Colt]

Is the KGC the same thing as the Masons? According to Kosh ... No. But he is ONLY a Master Mason.. 3rd degree. OUt of 32 or 33. The first Third Party in the US was teh Anti-Mason Party. What does that tell you?

The highest degree in Masonry is the 3rd degree Master Mason.

 

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[cccalco]

The highest degree in Masonry is the 3rd degree Master Mason.
[/quote]

Walker is dead on. There is Mason higher than the 3rd degree Master Mason. I also find in interesting that abt one Third of the KGC members there in Texas were F&AM. About a Third of the signers of the Declaration of Independence and of the US Constitution were said to be Freemasons. Now this doesn't make the US a Masonic Plot and if one third of the original KKK were Masons it only means that Freemasons have always been active in their communities. Never let a gavel fall without a brother in the hall.

 

[Hal Croves]

cccalco,
I am not sure if you made a mistake when typing your second sentence but it seems to contradict your quote. I have attached a diagram below that may help understand the structure of the Masons (Copyright B. Edelstein 1929). As I said, two main groups with many subgroups to consider.

Cat Jockey,
You are obviously a passionate person. I don't think that I subscribe to some of the things that you write about, however when it come to Freemasons (here in the U.S. and elsewhere)... well, there are simply too many examples of Masonic "coincidences" in the founding of national and state governments. Perhaps it had to be that way in order to achieve anything tangible... just look at how dis-functional our congress is today. The media keeps reporting that it is broken and perhaps the current system just may be. I read somewhere that the way to conquer various groups in conflict was to reduce them into two distinct parties while keeping one foot in each camp. It seems to be an effective strategy.

Red Healer,
That 3rd party that you write about is for me the most interesting part of American political history. Dig deeper if you have not already done so.
I have mixed feelings when it comes to the groups that you list... "Freemasonry, KGC, Monarchy of Europe, the Vatican, etc." They are each to some degree a secret society and in the words of MAHATMA GANDHI, secrecy is anti-democratic by its nature. I will leave you with a quote from my fathers all time favorite comedian Julius Henry Marx "I would never belong to a group that would accept someone like me as a member."

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[Walker Colt]

The 3rd degree Master Mason is the highest degree in Masonry. I am 32 degree in the Scottish Rite and Knight Templar in York Rite and have held positions in the Lodge. Of course the conspiracy theorist would say I won't get the secrets until I become a 33rd degree mason.

 

[Hal Croves]

Walker Colt,
That is quite an accomplishment. If you don't mind, could you please explain your reasons for posting on this thread? I only ask because as a 32nd degree you are in a unique position to educate the "non-mason" members (myself included). From the link to your website, I am assuming that you have some ancestral connection to the Confederacy or perhaps just a passion for history. Either way, a high ranking Mason posting on this KGC thread (with connections to the Confederacy) would understandably capture the attention of what you describe as "conspiracy theorist". In fairness, some of us simply see a consistent pattern of Masonic involvement and just want to understand how it can be so. Unfortunately the Masons that I have encountered on other threads are reluctant to have an open conversation about the brotherhood. I am hoping that you are the exception and that any conversation can be held with mutual respect and courtesy.

"Of course the conspiracy theorist would say I won't get the secrets until I become a 33rd degree mason." The way this reads is that you have already been intrusted with all the secrets of the Masons and that there is nothing more you will learn when and if you reach the 33rd degree. Is this correct? Thank you!

 

[watercolor]

The 3rd degree Master Mason is the highest degree in Masonry. I am 32 degree in the Scottish Rite and Knight Templar in York Rite and have held positions in the Lodge. Of course the conspiracy theorist would say I won't get the secrets until I become a 33rd degree mason.

This is quite interesting. . . I just found this ring in the woods this past Thursday and have been wondering if it is unique enough to find its owner, or is this just wishfull thinking on my part. I think it's been lost for a long time as several coins from the teens & twenties were found in the general area (I apologize if this hijacks or digresses from the original post).

 

[Walker Colt]

Walker Colt,
That is quite an accomplishment. If you don't mind, could you please explain your reasons for posting on this thread? I only ask because as a 32nd degree you are in a unique position to educate the "non-mason" members (myself included). From the link to your website, I am assuming that you have some ancestral connection to the Confederacy or perhaps just a passion for history. Either way, a high ranking Mason posting on this KGC thread (with connections to the Confederacy) would understandably capture the attention of what you describe as "conspiracy theorist". In fairness, some of us simply see a consistent pattern of Masonic involvement and just want to understand how it can be so. Unfortunately the Masons that I have encountered on other threads are reluctant to have an open conversation about the brotherhood. I am hoping that you are the exception and that any conversation can be held with mutual respect and courtesy.

"Of course the conspiracy theorist would say I won't get the secrets until I become a 33rd degree mason." The way this reads is that you have already been intrusted with all the secrets of the Masons and that there is nothing more you will learn when and if you reach the 33rd degree. Is this correct? Thank you!

Most of my ancestors served in the Confederacy so I've spent years researching the National Archives and libraries for details of their unit histories. I became interested in the KGC after reading an article abt them in a Civil War magazine. I contacted the author and have helped him find information on the KGC for the last several years for his upcoming book. Even though this site is primarily focused on the KGC treasure myth there are some good people here that ask questions and bring up things abt the KGC that may send my research down a different path. If you want to know my beliefs on the subject you can scroll through my posts from the last years. As far as the 33 degree goes, it is only a honorary degree given for outstanding service. And as I often say concerning the KGC is that I keep an open mind.

 

[Walker Colt]

The 3rd degree Master Mason is the highest degree in Masonry. I am 32 degree in the Scottish Rite and Knight Templar in York Rite and have held positions in the Lodge. Of course the conspiracy theorist would say I won't get the secrets until I become a 33rd degree mason.

This is quite interesting. . . I just found this ring in the woods this past Thursday and have been wondering if it is unique enough to find its owner, or is this just wishfull thinking on my part. I think it's been lost for a long time as several coins from the teens & twenties were found in the general area (I apologize if this hijacks or digresses from the original post).

Very cool find, it is a common style ring.

 

[Scar]

I would think that in a secret society only the top dog would know all of the secrets and would be the keeper of the most secret. Probably only a handful of the next to the top degree would only know of the tops existence. So the number 33 would be a lower number. How much lower only the top would know. I have noticed that the quality and quantity of the local lodge is much lower than it was when my dad was master of the local lodge. I can only speak for my area and the way I look at it but this change started in the early 1970's.

 

[Hal Croves]

Walker Colt,
Thank you for your response. I will spend some time reading your posts and if you remember, please let us know when that book is published.

Watercolor,
Nice find!

Scar,
I am not sure how one would prove the existence of that top layer... above the 33rd degree... if indeed it exists. There are a few theorist who point to a merger at that level, with Freemasonry answering to the Church, specifically to Adolfo Nicolás Pachón, however I am not sure just how valid that idea may be.

"In all well-organized communities or congregations there must be, besides the persons who take care of their particular goals, one or several whose proper duty is to attend to the universal good...there must be someone with responsibility for the entire body of the Society, a person whose duty is the good government, preservation, and growth of the whole body of the Society. This person is the superior general."--Const. [719]

 

[Scar]

Hal, I am not a member of the Masonic Order but both grandfathers, my dad, several uncles and my first cousin, that was the closest thing I had to a brother were. My mother was a member of the Eastern Star and held a state office or station in that group. One of my uncles was a Phd, Mason and historian for my states Southern Baptist Convention for many years and wrote a book on the history of Masonry in Louisiana. My dad died when I was a senior in high school, I just turned 17, 5 days before he died in 1967. Had plenty of Masons come up to me at the funeral home and funeral to tell me how much they respected my dad and if they could be of any help to me they would be there. The only people that tried to intervene or mentor me were a couple of old ladies from the First Baptist Church that came to my house one day and told me that I was going to hell. They couldn't give me an explanation as to why I would be condemned to hell, so I told them to go to hell. Around 1980 after my first child was born, I thought it to be a good idea to follow in my father and grandfathers footsteps to try to be accepted into their lodge. I had been invited to apply by a Mason that was a good friend and I had been in the Boy Scouts with for many years when we were younger. I talked to an older fellow that was a higher up in the lodge and he told me that he would black ball me if I applied. This fellow had probably 2 people that came to the funeral home, where my dad had close to a thousand. He did have enough from the lodge to give him a masonic service. I blew the Masons off, never to try again.

 

[Hal Croves]

Scar,
I had to ask. Could you tell us why he threatened to black ball you from the lodge? If it is not something that you wish to share I understand, but it seems odd to deny someone membership... especially at the invitation of friend (not to mention your grandfather and fathers admiration by their fellow Masons). I have spent some time researching the history of Masons in Mexico and as an outsider I find any insight fascinating. I guess for me it comes down to understanding the psychological need to belong to these groups... including organized religions.

Please if possible, could you let me know the title of your uncles book on Masonry in Louisiana.

 

[Scar]

Hal, I am kind of a low life cause I didn't read my uncles book. The book is Library of Congress Catalog-card number 62-8381.

 

[Scar]

I have no idea as to his rejection of my becoming a mason. All that I could think of is that he was an ole fellow and didn't have anything and I had something and he didn't like me having more than him. His son was a State Trooper that all the other Troopers loved to dislike.

 

[Hal Croves]

Scar,
Thank you for sharing. It sounds like it was their (the lodge's) loss in the end.

Walker Colt,
One short read that helped me to better understand the evolution of Masonry in Mexico is "French Perspectives on Mexican Secret Societies" David Merchant & Paul Rich. Very insightful... for a non-Mason who is trying to understand the Mason, KGC, & Mexican connection. I read through your posts last night and was impressed.

 

[Rebel - KGC]

Re: KGC and Freemasons the same thing

(With MUCH sighing...); I am Past Master of my "Blue Lodge" and I know what a "black ball" can do; I ALSO know in VIRGINIA, that an INVESTIGATIVE Committee of 3 USUALLY investigates the character, criminal "records", etc. of applicants and reports back to the Worshipful Master & the "Brotherhood" of the lodge, on the "suitabilities" of the candidates to become members. I have 33 years in the "Blue Lodge", currently a 7 degree York Rite Royal Arch Mason; soon to be KT. WAS active as 32nd Degree SR Mason and Shriner... SO! BACK to the "topic"... they are NOT the same, BUT! Some KGC Knights MAY have been FreeMasons, MAINLY Royal Arch, KT, and/or 32nd or 33rd SR of the 1860's... AND! A REBEL THING (CSA) with yankee (USA) COPPERHEADS... BOTH may have had FREEMASONS, who COULD keep SECRETS! KGC wanted a "slave Empire" reaching down into Cuba, etc.; it ALL goes back into the CLOUDY MISTS of time... to the Jefferson/Burr CONFLICT. Coffee?

 

[Hal Croves]

Rebel - KGC,
Please, just one question that I can not seem to resolve. IF only one third of the KGC were Freemasons, how (based on everything the brotherhood teaches and represents) could any good Mason join the KGC. It just seems to contradict all the positive things that Masonry represents and more importantly.... why was it tolerated? I understand the 100 year + gap in time but I have never found a honest explanation. Thank you in advance.

"Let a man's religion or mode of worship be what it may, he is not excluded from the order, provided he believes in the Glorious Architect of Heaven and Earth and practices the sacred duties of Morality."

 

[Walker Colt]

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness"

Jefferson wrote these words and owned 100s of slaves. Back then whites believed the africans to be inferior. They looked at all the scientific, mathematical and engineering progress of Europe compared to nothing from the african continent. Europe had castles, roads, bridges, science, philosophy, etc and the africans had nothing compared.
It wasn't until the 1960s or so before alot of Christian churchs allowed african americans into their congregations.

The answer to your question abt the Freemasons and KGC is that by the 1800s it was a common held belief of the people north and south as well as the abolitionists that africans were an inferior race. They were raised to believe it, they saw it every day in the differences of how each race lived and were educated, and slavery was Constitutionally protected.

Even though the Declaration of Independence, the Bible, and Masonic philosphy taught equality of men they still believed africans were inferior and it didn't apply to them.

 

[Hal Croves]

Walker Colt,
Thank you for your input, but I honestly feel that simply describing the conditions of the time is not an answer. It can not be as simple as monkey see, monkey do, but you are correct in that some of the "greatest" men of those times held slaves. But there were those who openly challenged the practice... for example my personal hero John Quincy Adams... who as you know challenged Freemasonry and Manifest Destiny... and obviously slavery. "What can I do for the cause of God and man, for the progress of human emancipation, for the suppression of the African slave-trade? Yet my conscience presses me on; let me but die upon the breach."
The anti-slavery movement in France (the true home of Scottish Rite Freemasonry) began as early as 1789 and they finally outlawed slavery by 1818. The enlightened movement (via Masonic ties) influenced the Mexican government to abolish slavery by 1829, which as we all know gave rise to the fighting with Anglo-Americans in Texas. Why did it take so long for American Freemasons to turn their backs on slavery? It wasn't because "everyone" was doing it and if that were the reason, Masonry should have challenged the practice based on the morality and principles of Freemasonry. This is what I can not get my head around. With all the good that Masonry represents, there just seems to be a underlying historical pattern of self-serving manipulation. Right or wrong, I believe that these examples are what fuel the "conspiracy theorist". When non-Masons today learn of the Masonic role in U.S. government, it is only natural that they feel detached and threatened. I think that the secrecy of Masonry might just be its biggest enemy.

"It wasn't until the 1960s or so before alot of Christian churchs allowed african americans into their congregations." I agree, but this conversation is about Masonry. The shortcomings of the Church is a whole other topic... unless you feel they are in some way connected?

"They looked at all the scientific, mathematical and engineering progress of Europe compared to nothing from the african continent. Europe had castles, roads, bridges, science, philosophy, etc and the africans had nothing compared." What about the discoveries made in Egypt & Ethiopia? What about the cera perduta process? I don't think that the perception of Africa and its cultural accomplishments were as inferior as you make it seem. The enlightened Masons would have known better. Anyway, it was kind of you to respond.

 

[paratrooper]

Just to clear up a point that has been said and repeated many times. Masonry is NOT a secret society. If it were a "secret" society then most people would not even know of it'e existance. What we are is a society "with secrets". BIG difference. Try calling Coca Cola and getting the formulas from them. Good luck. Try asking KFC what the formula of the "11 herbs and spices" is. Fat chance. The fact that many of a specific group were Freemasons only goes to show that many people at that time found themselves good enough to become a member of the craft. Many people that do not become Masons do so because they know in their heart of hearts that they are not worthy. They find pleasure in bashing Masonry. This attitude is very much akin to a 3 year old that hits an adult in the knee in an effort to gain attention however negative it might be. This behavior is most often allowed and viewed with some amusement until it wears a bit thin and the child is placed somewhere to enjoy a much needed nap. As an adult I find this behaviour amusing to a point. It is usually displayed by someone that lives in his mothers basement and has a public speaking job. "Did you want fries with that?" .... They don't even know enough to rattle an EA.