JULIA THOMAS

[Oroblanco]

Hola amigos,

Cactusjumper wrote

Around 1985, three men rode up to the pit mine. On the way, one of them stopped and pointed out the empty holes that had contained Waltz's caches. He then took them to the pit mine, which was still, somewhat, covered. I have been told that he "was dying to open the mine up".

That information, and more, I developed on my own. I would never have known anything about that mine if not for a very good friend. He is the one who took all of the pictures and actually went into the mine. That is how I know that there is no ore left in the mine.

I was convinced that it was the LDM when I left my friends home after being shown and given all of the pictures and supporting evidence. Very few people know all of the details of the information I later developed on my own, other than my friend and two other good friends, one of them being cubfan (Paul).

Most Dutch Hunters don't believe this mine is the LDM. Those who don't believe don't have the additional facts that I have. Most of the arguements for, and against, can be found here:

http://www.thelostdutchmangoldmine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=1122

I have a rather serious objection to identifying this interesting mine as the Lost Dutchman, we have covered it before but without assays and/or an ore sample from that mine, it is not possible to determine absolutely; however, from the rumor that has been in circulation, the ore from that pit mine was high in silver as well as gold; this is a normal thing to find in a silver district (several of the richest silver mines in Tombstone district suddenly turned out to be high in gold at a certain depth, generally the water table seemed to be the delineator in that case) but the fact of being high in silver, would tend to rule out it being Waltz's mine. Waltz's ore was quite low in silver. The type of ore could also be debated, but we don't know what type came from that particular pit mine whether it was epithermal, mesothermal or hypothermal, however at least some of the silver mines in Rogers canyon were epithermal, not the correct type we are looking for.

I realize that some would be comforted and satisfied with a certainty that the Lost Dutchman was found and is now all worked out, but so far I am not convinced this is the case. I am not the expert and when I bring up the ore, it does seem to irritate some of our amigos here but the ore is the only thing that can settle the Lost Dutchman case scientifically enough to rule out intelligent argument. So my apologies to our friends who will be aggravated by my bringing up the whole issue of the ore, no offense was intended and after all, a rich mine is a rich mine the actual name is not really that important.
Oroblanco

 

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[cactusjumper]

Hola amigos,

Cactusjumper wrote

Around 1985, three men rode up to the pit mine. On the way, one of them stopped and pointed out the empty holes that had contained Waltz's caches. He then took them to the pit mine, which was still, somewhat, covered. I have been told that he "was dying to open the mine up".

That information, and more, I developed on my own. I would never have known anything about that mine if not for a very good friend. He is the one who took all of the pictures and actually went into the mine. That is how I know that there is no ore left in the mine.

I was convinced that it was the LDM when I left my friends home after being shown and given all of the pictures and supporting evidence. Very few people know all of the details of the information I later developed on my own, other than my friend and two other good friends, one of them being cubfan (Paul).

Most Dutch Hunters don't believe this mine is the LDM. Those who don't believe don't have the additional facts that I have. Most of the arguements for, and against, can be found here:

http://www.thelostdutchmangoldmine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=1122

I have a rather serious objection to identifying this interesting mine as the Lost Dutchman, we have covered it before but without assays and/or an ore sample from that mine, it is not possible to determine absolutely; however, from the rumor that has been in circulation, the ore from that pit mine was high in silver as well as gold; this is a normal thing to find in a silver district (several of the richest silver mines in Tombstone district suddenly turned out to be high in gold at a certain depth, generally the water table seemed to be the delineator in that case) but the fact of being high in silver, would tend to rule out it being Waltz's mine. Waltz's ore was quite low in silver. The type of ore could also be debated, but we don't know what type came from that particular pit mine whether it was epithermal, mesothermal or hypothermal, however at least some of the silver mines in Rogers canyon were epithermal, not the correct type we are looking for.

I realize that some would be comforted and satisfied with a certainty that the Lost Dutchman was found and is now all worked out, but so far I am not convinced this is the case. I am not the expert and when I bring up the ore, it does seem to irritate some of our amigos here but the ore is the only thing that can settle the Lost Dutchman case scientifically enough to rule out intelligent argument. So my apologies to our friends who will be aggravated by my bringing up the whole issue of the ore, no offense was intended and after all, a rich mine is a rich mine the actual name is not really that important.
Oroblanco

Roy,

I can appreciate your being reluctant to accept my story as fact, but there are no credible rumors of the ore from that particular mine having a silver content. No assay, made public, has been forthcoming with good reason. If you believe that mine is the Silver Chief, you are likely mistaken.

Here is a news flash for everyone. If the LDM is ever shown to be found, in public, it will be from a mine outside the Superstitions. Only one of the ores that Dr. Glover had tested will match perfectly. No ore, from that vein, will be left in place in that mine.

I can tell you the complete story, I just can't reveal all of my sources. The people that cleaned that mine out are very happy with that fact. Someone else may make that information public, but it won't be me.

Take care,

Joe

 

[NativeOne]

Hello cactus jumper. You said Most Dutch Hunters don't believe this mine is the lost dutchmans mine. Those who don't believe don't have the additional facts that I have. The apache sacred cave and the lost dutchmans mine are one and the same. If you believe you have found the mine then where are the apache? did they take all the gold from their sacred cave and moved their ceremonys elsewhere? It seems as though they would never leave the sacred cave. But if you believe its the lost dutchmans mine, then you obviously, believe they the apache packed it all out and there is nothing left. Why would they leave their sacred cave when they have been actively protecting it for many many years. It just doesn't make any sense so i must disagree. Travis B.

 

[Oroblanco]

Hola Joe <and everyone reading>

No offense intended amigo, but without that ore, and without sources, your story is just another story of how someone found the LDM and mined it all out, not far different from several others over the past century.
Roy

 

[cactusjumper]

Roy,

I have been following the "I found the LDM stories" for 52 years now. You might say I have spent a good deal of that time up close and personal. Two members of my family, who didn't even know each other at the time, had their own LDM claims.

I have read most of the claims, and heard a number of such claims that have never been published.

I could rattle off a dozen pieces of evidence that are visible at this particular mine, that have pictures to back them up. Can you show me a single picture of a real mine that has the Waltz drawing of Weaver's Needle framed in a saddle?

If not, this one is different. One other thing that is different about this story, is that I didn't find the mine. My friend is not the one who found it and cleaned it out. Neither of us are looking the glory of it all. We didn't build it, we just explains it.

Take care,

Joe

 

[NativeOne]

Cactus jumper said. I could rattle off a dozen pieces of evidence. Please Do.

 

[Oroblanco]

Cactusjumper wrote

I could rattle off a dozen pieces of evidence that are visible at this particular mine, that have pictures to back them up. Can you show me a single picture of a real mine that has the Waltz drawing of Weaver's Needle framed in a saddle?

I don't own that many photos, in fact my only camera is an old Canon 35mm which I use only for supporting pix for articles, so no I don't have any photo of a real mine that has the Waltz drawing of Weaver's Needle framed in a saddle; your statement (and photo) however raise additional issues, such as what Waltz drawing are you referring to? Thank you in advance;

Cactus jumper said. I could rattle off a dozen pieces of evidence. Please Do.

Ditto.
Oroblanco

 

[cactusjumper]

NativeOne,

"Cactus jumper said. I could rattle off a dozen pieces of evidence. Please Do."

Sorry N.O., but I am much to shy to perform for strangers. Let's get to know you a little better before you start requesting favors.

There are others here who will be happy to do a little dance for you, all you have to do is start turning that little handle on the side of the grinder, and the show will begin.

Joe Ribaudo

 

[Ashton Page]

Thanks Joe,

That’s some find, to be sure. Is it the real McCoy? It would depend in large part on your interpretation of things like…… what did Waltz mean when he said “The mines in awful rough country.” Did he mean rough because of vegetation? Or did he mean rough terrain? I could make a case for either point.

Personally I believe (hope?) that it’s a few miles away from where I’ve been looking. BTW - there is another saddle

Thanks for sharing,
Ashton

 

[cactusjumper]

Ashton,

There are thousands of saddles in the Superstitions, large and small. Plenty of them can frame Weaver's Needle from the right viewpoint. Nice one over on Peter's Mesa, Tortilla Mt., Geronimo Head, Black Mt., and the list goes on.

The trick is not to find the view, but a workable or worked out mine from which you can climb a short distance above and find that view. Going north from the mine, you must have a steep, brush choked ravine with a rock house in the bottom. Along the way there should be a trick in the trail. It would also be helpful if there was a horse head rock formation along the way. You have to enter the correct ravine from a north south trending canyon.

Did I mention that the late afternoon sun should shine down into the pit, like this:

It would also be nice if you could see the cache sites along the way, but close to the mine. Did I mention the unfinished tunnel below the pit mine? You need a high ridge above the mine as well.

Is your site almost invisible until you break through the thick brush and almost fall to your death into the seventy foot drop?

While none of these things by themselves are guarantees you have found the correct mine, having all of these clues, as well as many more, can't hurt. On the other hand, you might have none of that partial list, and still have found the LDM.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[Ashton Page]

Hi Joe,

I am not ruling out this mine as a possibility. Even if it’s not the LDM, it is a fascinating find. I, for one am grateful to you for sharing it.

What I am saying is that (without ore samples) whether or not is really is the LDM will depend upon understanding what Waltz said. Does “awful rough country” mean rough because of vegetation? Why else would Waltz tell Julia and Reiney to bring old clothes? Hmmmmm…..

To all of us, no matter how much we know, there is always a new perspective at looking at things. With an open mind, there is always something new – and that’s the real treasure in this, for me anyway.

I do apologize for how I worded my comment “there is more than one saddle” – that was a clue (lookie what I found) and not a snide comment. I really did not mean it as being insulting. I respect your opinion Joe - if I didn’t then I wouldn’t be talking to you.

Best,

Ashton

 

[cactusjumper]

Ashton,

No apologies needed, as my mode of delivery is often a tad irritating. I was not offended in the least. In the last 54 years, I have been, in my opinion, crossed by friends, family, acquaintances and total strangers. Think I have acquired a pretty thick skin by now. Probably wouldn't recognize a real insult if I was clubbed over the head with it.


As for ore samples, I believe they are out there. I think I mentioned that in a previous post. If they are made public, it will be just as I have predicted. The LDM will not be claimed to be in the Superstitions. I have it on very good authority that those samples came out of the pit mine. The man who told me that would be in a position to know. I trust his word.

Don't really expect anyone else to blindly accept my word on it, but that's not really important in the overall scheme of things. After all, people like bb have said, basically, that I am a know-nothing idiot. That pretty well seals the deal among those in the know.

Look forward to hearing how your find turns out. Make sure you introduce yourself at the Rendezvous, as you seem like a real gentleman. Most of us are just regular a$$ holes.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Oroblanco]

Cactusjumper wrote

Don't really expect anyone else to blindly accept my word on it, but that's not really important in the overall scheme of things. After all, people like bb have said, basically, that I am a know-nothing idiot. That pretty well seals the deal among those in the know.

Dang it Joe, you know it takes all the fun out of making personal attacks when you beat me to the punch.

Roy

 

[cactusjumper]

 

[Ellie Baba]

Hi All,

It surprises me how so many people have dedicated their lives to the pursuit of the LDM, and other lost treasures, Jesuit, Peralta, Doc Thorne, Spanish, the list goes on and on. I for one am also guilty of this same dedication.

For those who lived during the time of Christ who witnessed the miracles and his resurrection and knew him on a personal level as the "Truth and the Life" clung to his teachings to the grave. Some of us feel that way today and will in fact believe in Christ even to the grave to be raised in Glory at a later date.

Once, in the not so distant past, Jacob Waltz and Julia Thomas shared certain information concerning his now famous lost mine. It strikes me as being quite funny how she suddenly abandoned the truths that she was taught concerning her relationship with Jacob Waltz and his mine. She did not believe his story to be factually based on the truth and played the game of "lets' make some money by stretching a story about a lost mine." She was payed and then interviewed by Pierpoint Constable Bicknell to tell him the story, which later he wrote about "Ol Yacob" and his lost mine and sold it to the San Francisco Chronicle.

Pierpoint was a western "tin horn" story writer who wrote and sold stories in newspapers and created "dime store" mini novels. He wrote the story about the pygmy people that protected a lost treasure in the Soups which later attracted hundreds of naive individuals who believed the story! Pierpoint was so surprised that these folks believed him that he had to explain that the story was not true! Even then the new believers would not accept that the story was false, if anything this group of Dutch Hunters grew.

The Legend was started and there was no turning back. It is so amazing to me that people believe these stories.

Julia Thomas abandoned her search almost immediately after Jacob's death. Once she found out that she could not possess his ore she and a few others were rewarded for their assistance in creating the Lost Dutchman Mine Legend. She abandoned the teachings of her Master and no longer searched for the mine; Julia knew the whole truth and nothing but the truth, Jacob Waltz never had a mine.

See attached Mining Claim owned by Julia Thomas (Mrs. Schaffer) and translation provided below.

Julia Thomas Mining Claim
Book of Mining Claims: Maricopa County Book 6 of Mines, Pages 393, 394 and 395
February 21, 1894
Notice of Location
To All Whom It May Concern; Notice is hereby given that the undersigned having complied with all the requirements of Chapter VI, of Title 32 of the Revised Statutes of the United States, and the local mining laws, rules and regulations, have this day located fifteen hundred <1500> linear feet of this vein or lode, bearing precious metals with all dips, spurs, angles and variations, with surface ground, three hundred <300> feet on each side of the center of vein, with all mineral deposits contained therein and all timber growing within the limits of said claim and all water and all water privileges thereon or appurtenant thereto, under and according to the provisions of the United States mining laws, under which it is located. This Claim commences at this monument and notice placed upon the ledge and runs, five hundred & 50 feet in a Westerly direction and nine hundred & 50 feet in an Easterly direction along the ledge. The exterior boundaries are as follows, to wit: Commencing at a monument of stone at the monument upon about the middle of claim, and running about six hundred feet in a North Westerly direction to a monument of stone at the North West corner of claim, thence in an easterly direction parallel with the ledge fifteen hundred feet to a monument of stone at the North East corner of claim, thence at right angles across the ledge in a Southerly direction Six Hundred feet to a monument of stone at the South East corner of claim, thence parallel with the ledge in a Westerly direction fifteen hundred feet to a monument of stone at the South West corner of claim, thence at right angles across the ledge in a Northerly thence Easterly direction about five hundred & fifty feet to a monument upon the ledge and place of beginning. This ledge may be more generally described as situated in the South side of the Salt River Mountains about tow [sic] miles South of the main Range about one & one half mile North of the Pima Indian Reservation and about six miles West, of Kyrine Phoenix & Maricopa Railroad Station. The Ledge is gold bearing rock of reddish color. In Salt River Mountain Mining District, Maricopa County Territory of Arizona and shall be known as the Montezuma mining claim.
Dated on the grounds this 21st day of February 1894.
Witness
Albert Schaffer} Albert Schaffer, Locator
Englbert Schaffer} Englbert Schaffer, Locator
Mrs. Julia Schaffer} Mrs. Julia Schaffer, Locator
Manual Elachor
Filed and recorded at request of Albert Schaffer, February 23d 1894, at 8 AM

Looking ahead for another good week!

Ellie Baba

 

[Cubfan64]

Ellie, I'm probably just thick in the head, but what are you trying to imply by posting the Schaffer mining claim? I know at least a few of us are familiar with it.

 

[cactusjumper]

Ellie,

That's an interesting take on Bicknell. I had never heard him described that way. Can you give us a source for that characterization? It's been awhile, but I did look into the man's history.

Here is what Tom Kollenborn has to say:

http://www.ajpl.org/aj/superstition/stories/Pierpont Constable Bicknell.pdf

That's, pretty much, in line with what I learned. Can you give us the title of a single dimestore novel that he wrote?

Thanks,

Joe

 

[NativeOne]

Someone said,I have it on very good authority that those Ldm samples came out of the pit mine. Question. Just how many decapitated bullet ridden bodies and vanishings have been found in or near the area of the pit mine. Is the pit mine anywhere near black top? Can any one help me with this?

 

[NativeOne]

Ellie, I'm probably just thick in the head, but what are you trying to imply by posting the Schaffer mining claim? I know at least a few of us are familiar with it.

I think it looks to me like julia was threatened and paid off to completely give up on her teachers very valuable claim. by the way how much do you think a mine of this magnitude historically, and mineral wise is actually worth, what would be the value then and what would be the value today and if this same mine is tayopa and cibola? Question: what would be the value of a human life in comparative value? Can any one help me with this? How much is a human life worth and how much is the richest goldmine in history worth.

 

[NativeOne]

I think i might have part of the answer, could it be Absolute power corrupts, Power corrupts; absolute power corrupts absolutely
Meaning

Literal meaning.

Origin

This arose as a quotation by John Emerich Edward Dalberg Acton, first Baron Acton (1834–1902). The historian and moralist, who was otherwise known simply as Lord Acton, expressed this opinion in a letter to Bishop Mandell Creighton in 1887:

"Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Great men are almost always bad men."

Another English politician with no shortage of names - William Pitt, the Elder, The Earl of Chatham and British Prime Minister from 1766 to 1778, is sometimes wrongly attributed as the source. He did say something similar, in a speech to the UK House of Lords in 1770:

"Unlimited power is apt to corrupt the minds of those who possess it"