JESUIT TREASURES - ARE THEY REAL?

[deducer]

deducer, my opinion is that we don't know the truth about the '82 pounds recovery', and never will. There are several versions floating around. This ought to tell you something - maybe everyone has been misinformed. I'm done talking about it.

There are only two versions "floating" around, and one of them is Bob's.

If anyone is misinformed, it is Bob/his party.

The big hole in Bob's wealthy rancher/Mexican revolution theory is the Gadsden purchase of 1854, which ceded the entire Arizona territory to the United States, including the land of today's Nogales, AZ.

The Mexican revolution occurred from 1910 to around 1920.

But just because the territory was US property long before the revolution, this doesn't necessarily rule out the possibility that the Mexican revolution reached up to and across the border since it was not as well monitored as it is today, hence my researching this topic a little more.

As it turns out, the establishment of Fort Buchanan in Sonoita, Arizona, in 1856, which I believe is just 30 miles from Nogales, effectively rules this theory out.

The other possibility is that there may have been a wealthy Mexican rancher, but instead of fleeing the revolution, he may have been in fact, fleeing the Americans.

Further research into Fort Buchanan also ruled this out.

Prior to the establishment of Fort Buchanan, a large part of this area was subject to frequent Apache raids, and miners and ranchers did not settle
in this area until after the fort was established (Sacks, 1965, 207).

Therefore we can rule out the theory that a wealthy Mexican rancher buried those caches.

Again, I am not questioning Bob's integrity or honesty; I am sure he is an outstanding individual, but his theory just doesn't pass the test.

 

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[Springfield]

... I am still waiting to see a list of treasure writers/authors whom became wealthy from the profits of their treasure writings. If anything, a writer whom included false/faked info only discredits himself/herself. ...

Pulp media writers have never made much money, but they have received recognition. Treasure magazines couldn't give a hoot if their writers' submissions are 'true' - they want good stories that people will pay for. Credibility in this genre seems to be a moot point.

... I don't think anyone is proposing that the exaggerated legends are true ...

Thank you.

Your point about SOME mines being over-rated is also true ...

Thank you.

Can you cite an example of a Jesuit silver mine in southern Arizona, which was proven to be LOW grade? Thank you in advance.

Yeah, somewhere back in the 129 pages - within the past month, I believe - somebody posted links to old reports about early Anglos inspecting played out workings - drifts, trenches, etc. - whose dumps and veins sampled too low to pursue. Any answer I give to your question can easily be attacked, of course. So, let me turn it around on you - can you provide assays of vein material from an abandoned Jesuit mine prior to Anglo exploitation?

Your point about the operation of mines, "under the eyes" of the Spanish and yet the Spanish did nothing about it, is based on the assumption that the Spanish would definitely have done something about it if there really were such mines. ...

That's right - if the mines had been rich enough, they would have been seized, using the Crown's authority. My premise from the beginning has been that the Jesuit/Spanish mines in Arizona's Santa Cruz Valley were likely 'modest' - producing enough silver to manufacture church vestments and copper to cast mission bells. I suspect the rumors of huge Jesuit precious metals caches are greatly exaggerated, and that any valuables cached prior to the expulsion seem likely to have been only church ornaments and perhaps some trade silver. Of course I could be wrong, and if more convincing evidence to the contrary surfaces, I will modify my position.

 

[Oroblanco]

Springfield wrote

Treasure magazines couldn't give a hoot if their writers' submissions are 'true' - they want good stories that people will pay for. Credibility in this genre seems to be a moot point.

I am surprised that the Treasure magazines have you as their public relations spokesman. You are of course stating your opinions, not fact. I doubt very highly that the editors of Western and Eastern Treasures, Lost Treasure and others, would have appreciated your views, much less agreed with them.

Springfield also wrote

Yeah, somewhere back in the 129 pages - within the past month, I believe - somebody posted links to old reports about early Anglos inspecting played out workings - drifts, trenches, etc. - whose dumps and veins sampled too low to pursue. Any answer I give to your question can easily be attacked, of course. So, let me turn it around on you - can you provide assays of vein material from an abandoned Jesuit mine prior to Anglo exploitation?

Any answer you give can be easily attacked? I simply asked for an example of a Jesuit silver mine in southern Arizona, which was proven to be LOW grade? You are not willing to spend the effort to hunt up one example, but you expect me to hunt up assays of vein material from an abandoned Jesuit mine, "prior" to Anglo exploitation - which by phrasing it that way, would be a tough order to fill. Who or whom would have been taking assays of the vein materials in abandoned mines, prior to Anglo exploitations? And you ask this, as if I carry wads of these assays around in my pocket?

I have seen nothing to indicate that the old silver mines (specifically) of the Jesuits in southern Arizona were LOW grade, in fact every source points to the opposite condition, that they were high grade. Examples, which I did take some time to find, and provide for your certain rejection:

SANTA CRUZ COUNTY From Our Special Correspondent
Wandering Jew
Allen T Bird has let a contract for sinking 100 ft on this mine in Tyndall District. Another shaft will be sunk 250 ft further along the cropping. The ores are high grade in silver and copper carrying some gold.

Engineering and Mining Journal, Volume 73, pp 222

After the checkered vicissitudes of 300 years of life and death the Salero mines famous in chronicle and tale are about to be reopened and the wealth that once freighted the caracals of grasping Spain or flowed to the capacious coffers of the Church whose fathers taught the benighted savage the mercies of crucifixion that he more contentedly might slave and toil and satisfy their greed for gold will ere long be made to swell the rivulet to the brook and open its unnumbered millions long hidden in the secret crypts to the mighty sesame of the miner's searching pick. Its caves no longer guarded by the baleful fires of Arizona's ******ing curse will gleam under the flash of the electric light and be worked in peace. A group of twenty seven mines among them some of the most famous lying in parallel and intersecting ledges have passed to the hands of a company composed of some of the most wealthy influential and enterprising men of the city of New York who will without delay begin work upon a scale befitting the envied reputation of the old Salero and Tumacacora treasure troves spoken of in legend and chronicle as without a world's parallel and for whose acquisition men died and their bones whitened in the sun. Nowhere on the earth's surface can such a grouping of mineral wealth be found close and compact as by special design the lodes clear defined and regular gird the isolated hill which rises from the valley for a thousand feet belted and seamed with ore near which stands the old Mission desolate ruined and dead a landmark for years past whose floor and walls have been worked and dug in the vain hope of unearthing secret stores. Of the twenty seven mines in question thirteen of the number have had enough work done to meet the requirements of the law for the granting of patents in addition to the work done at different intervals during the past 300 years. Many of their old names have been forgotten so that by more modern appellations they are now best known. First on the line of parallels is the ojd Tumacacora now known as the Lost Mine and about whose identity speculation has long been rife. The legends of its marvelous wealth whetted the appetite of many a man to his death but it certainly is soon to be by a cleaning out of its old nooks revealed and the contents of the book for generations sealed will he known to all. The Eureka on the same ledge once worked under a different name has on surface measurement an ore body of 35 feet in thickness and along which with an intervening space of 10 feet two tunnels have been run for a distance of about 310 feet and the five separate shafts sunk at intervals along its course vary from 20 to 50 feet in depth and the whole body averages an assay between $40 and 1,300 per ton. On the same lead is another location known as the Last Resort its shaft of 10 feet showing up the same quality of ore as the one last named. Beginning on the second parallel comes the Wide West with its aggregation of 34 feet of shafts with various tunnels and cuts in and across the 5 foot vein whose lowest average value is said to be not less than $200 per ton particular portions of it being valued at four times that sum. Most of the work is new and there are about 50 tons of choice ore on the dumps. The Helen and the Romeo follow as named. The latter at one time has been extensively worked as its half filled shafts tunnels and cuts abundantly prove. The ledge is remarkable for its immense width of 40 feet and some of its ores almost beyond belief are worth about $22,000 to the ton but the general run is from $60 to $18,000. And now the old Salero with its 300 foot shaft its cavernous mouth of nearly 50 feet in diameter and its immense ore dumps bespeaks the activity and the labor done some three hundred years agone. The old shaft now full to within about 80 feet of the surface has defied the best energies of many a determined man for its reopening. Wrightson and others though failing left behind them the work of their toil and their graves mark the resting place of their ambition. The last ore taken from the mine is recorded to have yielded fully $700 per ton and the second class or refuse ores now stacked upon the dumps are said to average $200 as they lie. The Salero King a ledge of the same nature joins it on the right and forms the intervening claim between the old Salero and the Lucifer the latter a mine from which because of its compact body of 5 feet of chlorides much is expected. It was formerly worked by Wrightson who was apparently obliged to desist because of the flow of water which now fills the different shafts. On the fourth parallel ledge are located the J Sylvie Happy Thought and the Hoo Doo claims. A 5 foot vein of great merits as the ore on general average is estimated to be worth about $163 to the ton. On the fifth parallel are the Emma Lucky and Pinafore. The assessment work is done on all. The ledge is about 4 feet well defined and assays about $40 to the ton. The Red Cloud, Miner's Mine, Hard scrabble, Quick Return, Moffat, Slip, Outlaw, Sergeant, and Pearl are all good claims that will well pay for development. The Red Cloud and Miner's Mine have been the most worked. The former has a shaft of 68 feet and the latter one of 45 feet deep. The ledge shows the same in both being about 5 feet in width carrying chloride and native silver all through worth about $1,500 per ton.

REPORT OF THE DIRECTOR OF THE MINT UPON THE STATISTICS OF THE PRODUCTION OF THE PRECIOUS METALS IN THE UNITED STATES pp 309-310, 1882

Springfield also wrote

That's right - if the mines had been rich enough, they would have been seized, using the Crown's authority.

Can you provide proof that this would absolutely have been the case? I know of only a single instance in which rich deposits of silver were discovered, and quickly seized upon by the authorities, the Planchas de Plata deposit. Have you forgotten the complaint of bishop Palafox, which was certainly known to the king of Spain, about the "very rich" silver mines of the Jesuits, and nothing was done? Do you contend that the silver mines Palafox referred to, were "not rich enough"?

Didn't the Spanish know about the mines of the Jesuit college of Matape, and nothing was done about them, and the mines that almost wholly supported the college of Queretaro, and did nothing about them either? Didn't captain Anza report on the gold mines near Arivaca, and nothing was done in that case, although in all these cases, once the Jesuits were thrown out, the door was open for others. In sum I disagree, respectfully, with your contention about what the Spanish authorities "would" have done, based on their in-actions seen in a number of other cases.

Now about that slag Joe?

Oroblanco

 

[Oroblanco]

PS here is the page for submission guidelines for Lost Treasure magazine, note that documentation is required; I see no mention of accepting fiction or false materials
Writer's Guidelines | Lost Treasure Online - Official Website of Lost Treasure Magazine

Western and Eastern Treasures also has their guidelines online:
Welcome To Western & Eastern Treasures Magazine
Note that they also state pretty clearly - "NO FICTION".

Side thingie on W&E Treasures, but the whole basis of the magazine is people telling of their great finds, something which you, Springfield, have stated that people would not do.

 

[Springfield]

Oro, you are a well-armed and staunch, if not rigid, defender of your position, and I applaud your tenacity and comittment. Also, I thank you for the material you've shared here - I likely wouldn't have found most of it on my own, and it's been quite instructive. The same goes to Mike and others.

Me? I'm here scouting a larger picture and frankly don't have the time to prolong the circular arguments. I don't have a horse in this particular race - I'm curious, but ambivilent. I've heard the stories and seen most of the evidence available to the public. Again, as I stated earlier today: "My premise from the beginning has been that the Jesuit/Spanish mines in Arizona's Santa Cruz Valley were likely 'modest' - producing enough silver to manufacture church vestments and copper to cast mission bells. I suspect the rumors of huge Jesuit precious metals caches are greatly exaggerated, and that any valuables cached prior to the expulsion seem likely to have been only church ornaments and perhaps some trade silver. Of course I could be wrong, and if more convincing evidence to the contrary surfaces, I will modify my position."

 

[Springfield]

... Note that they also state pretty clearly - "NO FICTION"...

Good one, Oro. I forgot to mention below that I also enjoy your sense of humor. I truly hope to enjoy a campfire with you one day.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Sprimgfield;p yuo called attenton to oro's post [

Oro, you are a well-armed and staunch, if not rigid, defender of your position, and I applaud your tenacity and comittment


Why don't you cal a spade a spade he is bull headed'

Don Jose de la one eyed jack de le Mancha

 

[Oroblanco]

Sprimgfield;p yuo called attenton to oro's post [

Oro, you are a well-armed and staunch, if not rigid, defender of your position, and I applaud your tenacity and comittment


Why don't you cal a spade a spade he is bull headed'

Don Jose de la one eyed jack de le Mancha

HAY now Don Jose de la monophthalmus, - delicacy and fear of never being allowed to see Tayopa prevent my responding appropriately to such a statement! Besides, this is a family-oriented site!

Springfield thank you for the kind words - however I am honestly sorry that I can not provide the proof you (and some others) would like to see, to 'clinch' the case. We all have different standards of evidence or proof, and I can respect your position as well as Cactusjumper's, which however will not prevent me from continuing to look for that evidence/proof that would convince you.

Until coming to Treasurenet, I had no idea there was any controversy over Jesuit treasures and/or mines; had read Polzer's article run in Desert magazine denying everything, but did not attach much weight to it as he was after all a Jesuit and must protect his Order. So I am 'catching up' on this as much as anyone else, and the research has been both interesting and instructive <to me> - even when we end up in circular arguments.

Good luck and good hunting to you (everyone reading this) I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco

 

[cactusjumper]

HAY now Don Jose de la monophthalmus, - delicacy and fear of never being allowed to see Tayopa prevent my responding appropriately to such a statement! Besides, this is a family-oriented site!

Springfield thank you for the kind words - however I am honestly sorry that I can not provide the proof you (and some others) would like to see, to 'clinch' the case. We all have different standards of evidence or proof, and I can respect your position as well as Cactusjumper's, which however will not prevent me from continuing to look for that evidence/proof that would convince you.

Until coming to Treasurenet, I had no idea there was any controversy over Jesuit treasures and/or mines; had read Polzer's article run in Desert magazine denying everything, but did not attach much weight to it as he was after all a Jesuit and must protect his Order. So I am 'catching up' on this as much as anyone else, and the research has been both interesting and instructive <to me> - even when we end up in circular arguments.

Good luck and good hunting to you (everyone reading this) I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco

Roy,

Father Polzer was a man of honor. Why do you think he would defend the Jesuit Order if they were involved in mining in Mexico?

Received a call from Baker Looney tonight. He wishes he could make another Rendezvous, but that seems out of the question for him. He's been in and out of the hospital lately, and the doctors have only given him 6 months to a year to live. Baker is a good man and part of the history of the LDM. For any who pray, he could use some kind words.

Take care,

Joe

 

[cactusjumper]

Yes, and over the years I've read and enjoyed most of it. Thanks for condensing your responses to the questions I posed. Forgive me that I have no intention of re-reading the old material - if this topic was my obsession, I would, but I'm doing well finding the time to keep up with current posts. We all have our opinions about this, and no matter how positive we feel about our own positions, there's no guarantee any of us has the whole truth. I readily admit the empty spaces in my rationale, but I'm willing to change my views when I see new light. I'm going to use Oro's interesting civil court protocol to respond to your post. My 'scores' represent a broad estimate, in per cent, of my own confidence that your analysis is the true and correct answer. 'Juvenile', in deducer's opinion of me, maybe - but it saves additional typing.



Agreed. The plentiful anecdotal testimony from the early Anglo prospectors, miners and explorers indicate mining was done in the area prior to their arrival. Score: 90% or more.



I have some problems here. First, if the deposits were 'exceedingly rich' (undefined value judgement, of course, but justifying the rumors surrounding the Virgin of Guadalupe, La Purisima Conception, et al), it's my opinion that that they would have been located prior to the arrival of the Jesuits and exploited. The Spanish preceded the SJ by 150 years with a strong focus on metal beyond the Northern Frontier. Secondly, if the Jesuits were the discovers of the deposits, and they were as rich as rumors say, the Crown would have seized them, ala Planchas de Plata. I reject Oro's argument that the Spanish military would have been incapable of locating such mining operation, if they existed. My view is that the deposits, while good, have been overrated. Score: 50% or less.



I'll go along with this, for the most part. However, I still leave the door open that there may have been agreements with Spanish mining entrepreneurs of the day. These could have been handed the coadjutor permit for appearances sake. Score: 90% or more.



I haven't researched this aspect and will accept the Jesuits' delivery system that you've described on face value. What amount of loot sent home was precious metals is, IMO, an open question. Score: 90% plus on the protocol.



The Jesuits have always been the smartest guys in the room and, as most will attest, the most capable too. My read on this is two-fold. First, if caches exist(ed) after 1767, they were much less significant than the rumors suggest - likely church ornamentation and some trade bullion. Secondly, these caches would have been recovered by the Jesuits if deemed important. We're not talking about meek padres leaving the New World with their tails tucked between their legs - we're talking about the Navy Seals of their time. If the rumored large caches existed, you can bet they are no longer in Arizona. Score: 50% or less.

Actually, I'm not all that far removed from you guys's claims on this thread. I just don't believe the exaggerated legends that have been attached to the reasonably solid framework. Too many unverifiable treasure stories of questionable provenance, too many mysterious documents, too many faked artifacts/recoveries. Who benefits from this kind of guile? Good question - the writers, scammers and glory-seekers, for sure. Does it end in southern Arizona, or is this just part of a larger unified treasure conspiracy? If there is such a thing, I imagine the Jesuits were (are) involved.

[/QUOTE]

Springfield,

You do our Navy Seals a profound dishonor by making that insulting comparison. The Jesuits were nothing like the Seals.

Take care,

Joe

 

[cactusjumper]

Roy,

"Now about that slag Joe?"

Can you tell me what year that slag was deposited there?

Thanks,

Joe

 

[Oroblanco]

Roy,

"Now about that slag Joe?"

Can you tell me what year that slag was deposited there?

Thanks,

Joe

The slag did not appear in one year. I will be happy to give you the year-range, when you answer my questions.
Roy

EDIT scratch that. Don't bother to answer those questions. Believe what you will. BTW Polzer was a Jesuit, sworn to oath. Jesuits defend their Order, I have never yet seen a Jesuit admit to any wrong on the part of their Order. Good luck and good hunting, and our prayers are with Baker.
Roy

 

[cactusjumper]

The slag did not appear in one year. I will be happy to give you the year-range, when you answer my questions.
Roy

EDIT scratch that. Don't bother to answer those questions. Believe what you will. BTW Polzer was a Jesuit, sworn to oath. Jesuits defend their Order, I have never yet seen a Jesuit admit to any wrong on the part of their Order. Good luck and good hunting, and our prayers are with Baker.
Roy

Roy,

A year range would be fine. How would someone determine that? Was it determined that it was Jesuit slag, as opposed to Franciscan?

You asked:

A: do you claim that the witnesses whom reported seeing the slag piles, like Dr Williamson in 1860, were telling the truth or not?

Can't remember who Dr. Williamson was. 1860 was after the time of the Jesuits by almost 100 years. Were there miners there during that time? What about Franciscans?

B: if you allow that there were indeed slag heaps, what happened to them, as you dismiss the report that they were hauled off and sold for the silver content?

I believe the Franciscans used slag in the walls of the new buildings. Beyond that, I don't know how much slag was there. I don't know that it was, for sure, silver slag.

C: how do you explain the presence of smelter slag built into San Xavier and Tumacacori churches themselves?

See my answer for B, above. (Franciscans)

On a different aspect; do you agree that there was smelting activity at the missions, while padres were running the show?

No.I don't know that for a fact, but believe it was possible.

If so, where do you suppose the ore they smelted came from, if not from Jesuit (and later, Franciscan) mines?

Since I have seen no credible evidence that it was silver or gold ore that was smelted, I don't feel it's important to the subject, at least not to me.

I did not feel that my answers would be acceptable, so I have been reluctant to give them. I have been derided for not accepting the "evidence" that you have all been providing, so I thought it best to ignore them.

I have good friends who don't, or won't, accept or understand my side of the debate, and I don't want to have that become an issue. My mind is not as sharp as it used to be, so I need to be cautious as to what I say and write. I have parted company with too many good folks already.

Take care, my friend,

Joe

 

[cactusjumper]

Mike,

Hope all is well with you.

Bells were commonly cast in Jesuit Missions.

Who determined that the slag found at Guevavi was Silver? When was it tested. Did someone determine the age of the slag piles?

Same questions for Tumacacori.

I doubt that "prior" knowledge of mining.....etc., was erased by the King's order. Mercury serves other purposes outside of mining. I have no idea why he was carrying the flask. I won't ascribe motives to Father Och. I will leave that to others who have already decided the answers. Not saying any of you are wrong, just that I am still doing research into the subject.

"The foundry at Mission San Juan Capistrano was the first to introduce the Indians to the Iron Age. The blacksmith used the mission's forges (California's first) to smelt and fashion iron into everything from basic tools and hardware (such as nails) to crosses, gates, hinges, even cannon for mission defense. Iron was one commodity in particular which the mission relied solely on trade to acquire, as the missionaries had neither the know-how nor the technology to mine and process metal ores."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_missions_in_California

Take care, my friend,

Joe

 

[Springfield]

Springfield,

You do our Navy Seals a profound dishonor by making that insulting comparison. The Jesuits were nothing like the Seals.

Take care,

Joe[/QUOTE]


Figure of speech only, Joe. After all, I read somewhere that they couldn't swim!

 

[deducer]

You do our Navy Seals a profound dishonor by making that insulting comparison. The Jesuits were nothing like the Seals.

IMHO, he was not making a direct comparison. After all, he did say "of their times," which I think is a solid metaphor because as far as the Jesuits of the 18th century, there was no questioning their tenacity and ambitions.

The Jesuits and the Seals do share some comparable traits: the ability to function in hostile territory and under hostile circumstances, yet be resourceful, very self-sufficient, and complete the mission.

The Jesuits of the New World had major enemies, the Spanish authority and those of the Indians that were hostile towards white men, such as the Apache. Despite this, they established a sophisticated trade system that reached deep into the frontier. Their resourcefulness was unparalleled to the point where they had a stranglehold on the frontier economy.

I have already pointed out how I feel that the ability to function in extreme conditions, e.g., the harsh desert, surrounded by hostiles, hundreds of miles away from the nearest "hospital" or days of riding from the nearest mission, takes a special type of mental toughness.

Another comparison that I don't think is remiss, is the single-minded dedication both organizations have towards the ideology they serve, and the extensive indoctrination and trainings that both go through. The below picture is part of the final vows process taken by modern day Jesuits (e.g., not as militant as the old Jesuits were) at the end of their tertianship, and gives you an idea of the fanatical intensity that was once there.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Joe how do you explain Tayopa and the actual collection missions for transport across Northern Mexico

Come on down and i[ll take you to two of them

, No, there are no records of them available so you will have to take your eyes and the words of the Indians that have lived there for generations as to their reality .

DonJose de la 1 1/2 eyed Jack de la Mncha

 

[cactusjumper]

Don Jose,

I don't doubt their existence for a second. What I doubt is their purpose, as you have described it. As you well know, there are thousands of such ruins thruoghout Mexico, Central America and South America. On the other hand, it may be they were used exactly as described. It makes for a great story.

Take care,

Joe

 

[cactusjumper]

Added a little to this post:

Mike,

Hope all is well with you.

Bells were commonly cast in Jesuit Missions.

Who determined that the slag found at Guevavi was Silver? When was it tested. Did someone determine the age of the slag piles?

Same questions for Tumacacori.

I doubt that "prior" knowledge of mining.....etc., was erased by the King's order. Mercury serves other purposes outside of mining. I have no idea why he was carrying the flask. I won't ascribe motives to Father Och. I will leave that to other who have already decided the answers. Not saying any of you are wrong, just that I am still doing research into the subject.

"The foundry at Mission San Juan Capistrano was the first to introduce the Indians to the Iron Age. The blacksmith used the mission's forges (California's first) to smelt and fashion iron into everything from basic tools and hardware (such as nails) to crosses, gates, hinges, even cannon for mission defense. Iron was one commodity in particular which the mission relied solely on trade to acquire, as the missionaries had neither the know-how nor the technology to mine and process metal ores."

Spanish missions in California - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Take care, my friend,

Joe

Believe I had previously mentioned that you should look at the foundry at Santa Barbara, but my failing memory had lost the fact that it was San Juan Capistrano instead.

Joe

 

[cactusjumper]

All,

Thought I might add that bells being cast for churches often had gold and silver jewelry added to the mix. Those items were donated to the church expressly for the making of the bells. I will be happy to provide a source for that information, If pressed.

Joe