JESUIT TREASURES - ARE THEY REAL?

[cactusjumper]

Are you saying that Mr Bird is fluent in Spanish? I didn't know the man, and could not say.

Mike

Mike,

Not really. I should have said WAS very fluent in Spanish. Believe Mr. Bird died before I was born, so neither of us know him.

Take care,

Joe

 

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[cactusjumper]

Springfield,

You wrote it while I was thinking about it.

Take care,

Joe

 

[gollum]

Mike, page 3 from the Bird document seems to provide a confusing message. Do you support the notion that 'hundreds of Spanish adventurers', with encouragement and military protection from the Crown, were doing most of the mining in the Santa Cruz Valley during this period - and were not only paying their fifth to the Crown, but an additional fifth to the church, which was apparently not mining, but providing slaves to the Spanish (as Bird seems to be indicating), who were? If this is true, it seems to change things. Please explain.

Deducer, the Hamilton report, while useful on several levels, nonetheless was published (as clearly stated in the Authorization Act on Page 5) to entice capitalists to invest in Arizona mines. 10,000 copies were printed for this purpose. There's nothing wrong with this - it was a common practice then, and is now, for states looking for growth. However, I would be cautious relying on everything stated therein as 'factual'. The Arizona mines' history and potential are presented in the very best light, but supported by less than definitive sources. It's a sell job, and a good one - its why Hamilton was hired.

Oro - no need to apologize for the lack of reliable data. It is what it is. This is why we're asking the questions. Don't get frustrated that some of us need more than conjecture. We want to believe - really.

Springy, Springy, Springy,

Making intellectual leaps again are we? Nowhere does it say or infer that the Jesuits were providing Indians as slaves. What it does say is that:

Indians occupying this region, who readily embraced Christianity, coming easily under the domination of the gentle priests. Those Indians were tillers of the soil and laborers. From among them were drawn the workers in the mines, and on the Ranches that the Friars and laymen, among the Spaniards discovered and exploited.

Have you ever read anything at all about Jesuit Reductions? It has been quoted before, and if you don't have a copy, you really should get one for this discussion, of Father Polzer's "Rules and Precepts of Jesuit Missions in Northwestern New Spain." You will read in several places how the Indians were very upset because the Jesuits worked them so hard in the mission fields that they didn't have time to tend their own meager crops. And also regarding that statement.... do you know what LAYMEN are? Maybe you have heard the term LAYBROTHERS? Actually, Bird's description of the situation is EXACTLY what I have been saying for a long time; Jesuit Temporal Coadjutors (or laymen) ran the businesses for profit and mines. They did all the things the Jesuits were not allowed to do under pain of excommunication.

As their labor was very cheap, giving the Indians a bare subsistence, with which the latter were content, and their processes were crude and primitive, yet inexpensive, those heavy exactions were not really burdensome

As to the money given to the Church. EVER HEAR OF TITHING? 99% of all Spaniards were/are Catholic. According to the Council of Trent (1545-1563):

The payment of tithes is due to God; and they who refuse to pay them, or hinder those who give them, usurp the property of another. Wherefore, the holy Synod enjoins on all, of whatsoever rank and condition they be, to whom it belongs to pay tithes, that they henceforth pay in full the tithes, to which they are bound in law, to the cathedral church, or to whatsoever other churches, or persons, they are lawfully due. And they who either withhold them, or hinder them (from being paid), shall be excommunicated; nor be absolved from this crime, until after full restitution has been made. It further exhorts all and each, that, of their Christian charity, and the duty which they owe to their own pastors, they grudge not, out of the good things that are given them by God, to assist bountifully those bishops and parish priests who preside over the poorer churches; to the praise of God, and to maintain the dignity of their own pastors who watch for them.

Unlike today in America, tithing was required by both secular and Church laws. Spanish paid 1/5th to the crown and 1/5th to the Church. I don't know of any specific amount required to tithe in the 17th and 18th centuries, but I bet the priests would put some serious shame and embarrassment on folks that tithed less to the Church than they gave to the King (and the King REQUIRED 1/5th).

Best - Mike

 

[ConceptualizedNetherlandr]

You have taken that quote out of context.

The full sentence is: "At what time the first discoveries were made by Europeans is not clear, although it is believed that the Jesuit Missionaries operated here as early as the latter part of the 17th century."

So he is obviously referring to the question of when the Europeans first discovered the mines.

Ma always hated that. The idea of me being taken out of context.

Being called that always infuriated her.

 

[Oroblanco]

Greetings,
One more time, but not so long winded this time, thank you in advance.

Springfield wrote

Oro - no need to apologize for the lack of reliable data. It is what it is. This is why we're asking the questions. Don't get frustrated that some of us need more than conjecture. We want to believe - really.

I was not apologizing. Your free use of that term "conjecture" strikes me as odd however, for what this case is, is a report from an individual, whom is named. The piles of slag were seen and reported by a number of witnesses; these mounds of slag vanished, and we have ONE explanation as to where they went. What we do not have is some alternate story to explain it. You may see that as "conjecture" but I see it as the most likely, and with the evidence available, the only logical explanation as to what happened to all that slag.

If we try to explain it away as copper slag, then where did all that silver come from that adorned the mission of San Xavier? Why did father Segesser mention that he was in "the SILVER mountains" and complain that he had a hard time paying the high wages of overseers because he could not work the mines securely? All still just conjecture in your eyes?

Do we just dismiss the director of the US Mint, the governor of Arizona, the fine geologists of the US Geological Survey, when they stated that the Jesuits were the pioneer miners in Arizona? Apparently yes indeed, for we have modern historians like Polzer and Burrus who insist it isn't so!

I will close with one more statement attributing mining activities to the Jesuits in Arizona, just to show that we are hardly scratching the surface for source materials; I don't expect this will add any weight to change the minds of our skeptics, and at this point I don't think anything would. I had hoped to see some counter evidence presented, not just snide remarks and gainsaying, but then I was laboring under the mistaken impression that we all have kept open minds about the topic.

Here then, for your certain disapproval, one last source:

The Jesuit fathers were the pioneer miners of Arizona and the first Europeans to attempt the extract and reduction of its rich silver ores. When or where this first mining was done we have no means of knowing but it could not be long after the establishment of the missions at San Xavier and Tumacacori. That it was prosecuted on an extensive scale there is reason to believe from the old shafts and tunnels which are found in the mountains surrounding this old mission and from the piles of slag which are yet seen in the vicinity of the ruins. The success of the mission fathers induced others to engage in the business Many rich discoveries were made and a great deal of bullion was transported from Pimeria Alta.

When the Territory of Arizona passed into the possession of the United States there was not a single mine worked within the limits of the Gadsden Purchase or in all Arizona. Want of protection from Apache depredations had caused the abandonment of every mining enterprise and the old shafts and tunnels and the furnaces were all that was left of once prosperous mining establishments. The first mining by Americans was in the Santa Rita mountains. The Sonora Mining & Exploring Company and the Arizona Mining Company were organized some time in 1855. These companies secured possession of many of the old mines which had been opened in early times by the mission fathers and recommenced work upon them aided by all the improved machinery and appliances then in vogue.

Copper Curb and Mining Outlook, pp 22-23 Vol 14, 1916

Good luck and good hunting, thank you all for the very interesting debate.
Oroblanco

 

[deducer]

Deducer, the Hamilton report, while useful on several levels, nonetheless was published (as clearly stated in the Authorization Act on Page 5) to entice capitalists to invest in Arizona mines. 10,000 copies were printed for this purpose. There's nothing wrong with this - it was a common practice then, and is now, for states looking for growth. However, I would be cautious relying on everything stated therein as 'factual'. The Arizona mines' history and potential are presented in the very best light, but supported by less than definitive sources. It's a sell job, and a good one - its why Hamilton was hired.

Apparently you missed this part:

 

[deducer]

I had hoped to see some counter evidence presented, not just snide remarks and gainsaying, but then I was laboring under the mistaken impression that we all have kept open minds about the topic.

I was hoping for the same too, but considering the history of this thread, that is probably asking for too much.

 

[Springfield]

Springy, Springy, Springy,

Making intellectual leaps again are we? Nowhere does it say or infer that the Jesuits were providing Indians as slaves...

Bird's surprising statements would certainly help explain where part of the Jesuits' money came from - providing labor in Spanish mines for a quite hefty fee. Now it raises the question of just who operated the metals recovery operations within the safety of the mission environs? This whole 'arrangement' sounds pretty profitable for both sides. I can well imagine that the brothers were quite ticked off when they were kicked out of the deal.

Well, anyway - your damage control posting notwithstanding ('tithing ... yeah, yeah, we'll call it tithing ... beautiful spin!'), I'm not sure you want to maintain Bird in your deck of cards. He's looking a bit like the joker in the deck.

We all agree the SJ are wolves in sheeps' clothing, whether 'illegal miners', or 'slavers/enablers', but the question has always been, and remains, 'where's the money?'

 

[Springfield]

I was hoping for the same too, but considering the history of this thread, that is probably asking for too much.

It's a forum, deducer - not a blog. There are strong allegations here and impressive circumstantial evidence to support them, but not everyone is yet in the boat. We all want the truth of the matter, whatever it is. Public opinion, 'common knowledge' and 'expert opinions' notwithstanding (all of which have a nasty habit of frequently being incorrect), my questions have always been: where are the early Arizona mines, how rich were they, who operated them, where did the money go, and if the loot was once hidden in Arizona, why would we assume that it is still hidden there? You seem primarily bent on hanging the Jesuits for their many sins - and rightfully so, IMO - but let's figure out which sins are theirs, which are the Crown's and which may be shared.

 

[deducer]

We all agree the SJ are wolves in sheeps' clothing, whether 'illegal miners', or 'slavers/enablers', but the question has always been, and remains, 'where's the money?'

"Where's the money?" is not the subject of this thread. The subject of this thread is "Jesuit treasures- are they real?" And I think that's been proven over and over again to be a resounding yes.

A period of 247 years have passed since the Jesuits were here last, so it's presumably safe to assume that a great deal of their treasure is gone, whether at the hand of the early treasure hunters, latter hunters such as Pegleg Tumlinson, miners, or looters who stumbled onto their finds. That still doesn't change the question of whether or not they exist.

It's a forum, deducer - not a blog. There are strong allegations here and impressive circumstantial evidence to support them, but not everyone is yet in the boat. We all want the truth of the matter, whatever it is. Public opinion, 'common knowledge' and 'expert opinions' notwithstanding (all of which have a nasty habit of frequently being incorrect), my questions have always been: where are the early Arizona mines, how rich were they, who operated them, where did the money go, and if the loot was once hidden in Arizona, why would we assume that it is still hidden there? You seem primarily bent on hanging the Jesuits for their many sins - and rightfully so, IMO - but let's figure out which sins are theirs, which are the Crown's and which may be shared.

This is a forum which intelligent discussion is expected according to the rules set by the mods, not juvenile snide remarks, non sequiturs, or strawman arguments.

I think your questions have been addressed many times over in the course of this thread, but obviously you have chosen to remain steadfast in your position. As you say, most of the evidence is circumstantial because of the considerable gap in history, but this should not prevent us from making educated guesses, especially when some of the facts can be corroborated and/or cross-referenced.

And as for the Jesuits, I am very fascinated with the old Jesuits- their high IQ, cunning, and hardy constitution. I have reflected on the fact that should I have been out in those mountains and something had happened to me, and provided that I was prepared properly, and did the right thing (informing another person of my whereabouts), I was mere hours from either SAR, or a hospital that was equipped to handle most anything. Those old Jesuits out on the frontier were hundreds of miles from the nearest "hospital" (and I use that word liberally) or at least days of riding from the nearest mission, should something bad have happened to them. That to me, takes a special type of mental toughness.

However as far as what they did, I will not hesitate to call a spade, a spade. I understand that what they did, they did so according to their primitive belief system at the time and so I don't really hold that against them, but that still does not absolve them of what they did.

They were far from being angels.

 

[deducer]

If I never hit desert sand again it will in my mind be richer than it was last time after reading here, and should boredom set in down the road there will be Jesuits to chase by other means.

This is by far, my favorite part of all this. To walk in the footsteps of the old Jesuits, to think about what they did and why, and imagine what they were like, how they thought and lived. They were very smart, wily and cunning, for sure. But there is a smoking gun somewhere and I am hell-bent on finding it, and that's the thrill for me; to try and catch them red-handed.

 

[sailaway]

MINERAL APPRAISAL OF CORONADO NATIONAL FOREST, ARIZONA PART 15 EXECUTIVE SUMMARY
by Mark L. Chatman MLA 23-94 1994
Intermountain Field Operations Center
http://mines.az.gov/DigitalLibrary/usbm_mla/USBM_MLA_023-94.pdf

University of Texas at San Antonio dig at the Alamo and mapped and their contents recovered and analyzed. ...... would suggest Tumacacori Polychrome. ...... fragments of lead slag and sprue was recovered. (recovery of slag) I read somewhere (will find the source as it named the person) that the Slag was recovered and shipped to Texas from Tumacacori for sale later.
http://car.utsa.edu/CARResearch/Publications/ASRFiles/201-300/ASR No. 205.pdf
Gold, Copper, Lead, and Zinc in Arizona by C. N. Gerry and T. H. Miller
Detailed Statistics/ Mine Report
Minerals Yearbook 1934
http://images.library.wisc.edu/EcoN...ference/econatres.minyb1933suppl.cgerry02.pdf
The Sykes group bought the Calabasas, Tumacacori, and Guebavi land grant both Wise and his father established homesteads upon it, but they didn't know Sykes at that time. His father got President Benjamin Harrison to set up a private land court to settle claimants to the grant. The original grant to this area was issued by the King of Spain in the 1500's to Alvar Nunez Cabeza de Vaca, The correct name of this parcel is "Luis Maria Baca Land Grant No. 3."
http://archive.library.nau.edu/cdm/ref/collection/cpa/id/24708

 

[gollum]

Bird's surprising statements would certainly help explain where part of the Jesuits' money came from - providing labor in Spanish mines for a quite hefty fee. Now it raises the question of just who operated the metals recovery operations within the safety of the mission environs? This whole 'arrangement' sounds pretty profitable for both sides. I can well imagine that the brothers were quite ticked off when they were kicked out of the deal.

Well, anyway - your damage control posting notwithstanding ('tithing ... yeah, yeah, we'll call it tithing ... beautiful spin!'), I'm not sure you want to maintain Bird in your deck of cards. He's looking a bit like the joker in the deck.

We all agree the SJ are wolves in sheeps' clothing, whether 'illegal miners', or 'slavers/enablers', but the question has always been, and remains, 'where's the money?'

First: It NOWHERE states that the Jesuits provided labor for anybody but THEMSELVES! Let's try this one more time in big letters:

Indians occupying this region, who readily embraced Christianity, coming easily under the domination of the gentle priests. Those Indians were tillers of the soil and laborers. From among them were drawn the workers in the mines, and on the Ranches that the Friars and laymen, among the Spaniards discovered and exploited.

Okay, what that says is that of all the Spaniards in the New world, the Indians worked mines and fields owned by the Jesuit Priests and Laymen (temporal coadjutors). Pretty simple statement actually, and NOWHERE does it INFER, IMPLICATE, IMPLY, GLEAN, SURMISE, PRESUME, or INDICATE that the Jesuits provided labor for anybody but themselves. RIF

Bird seems to be more knowledgeable than you regarding Jesuit History in the new world. Why take him out of my deck? He didn't say ANYTHING that didn't have some basis in fact. Please tell me anything you might have found in Bird's background that might disqualify him from what he did or wrote? Joe even says he spoke fluent Spanish, and as such, was able to self translate "La Historia del Nayarit". While I can do that, since I am not a fluent Spanish Speaker, it takes me longer (and I have to look up some words).

You easily dismiss the entire tithing thing, but that was as important then as was paying the King's Royal Quinto. As I showed by the quote from the Council of Trent just a hundred or so years before the time we are talking about. Let me restate that again in big letters:

The payment of tithes is due to God; and they who refuse to pay them, or hinder those who give them, usurp the property of another. Wherefore, the holy Synod enjoins on all, of whatsoever rank and condition they be, to whom it belongs to pay tithes, that they henceforth pay in full the tithes, to which they are bound in law, to the cathedral church, or to whatsoever other churches, or persons, they are lawfully due. And they who either withhold them, or hinder them (from being paid), shall be excommunicated; nor be absolved from this crime, until after full restitution has been made. It further exhorts all and each, that, of their Christian charity, and the duty which they owe to their own pastors, they grudge not, out of the good things that are given them by God, to assist bountifully those bishops and parish priests who preside over the poorer churches; to the praise of God, and to maintain the dignity of their own pastors who watch for them.

Paying a tithe at that time in Spanish History was JUST as important as paying the crown. You can't just dismiss it because it doesn't fit into your argument. The only "damage control" here is you and Joe reaching at straws trying to gainsay and twist the words of SEVERAL official US Government Documents and University Bulletins that flatly state Jesuits were miners.

"Where's the money?", you ask. Simple, Canadian Law Review of 1892:



THAT is one instance of some of the Jesuit Wealth that has surfaced.

Here is one of 82 pounds of gold bars:




Here is a pic of one of 1028 silver bars (a very short distance from the above gold bars):



You can call every other gold or silver bar a fake, except for the two caches above, I might agree with you (or at least be skeptical of the find). The two finds above (to me) are beyond reproach. You can think what you will about them (as I understand you don't know the people involved and none of the backstories of either of them).

Best - Mike

 

[Springfield]

"Where's the money?" is not the subject of this thread...

[[ Treasure Net> Treasure Hunting > Treasure Legends > Jesuit Treasures-Are They Real? ]] It's the fascination of hidden riches, and the accompanying foibles of human nature that brought most of us here. Of course, I could be wrong.

... This is a forum which intelligent discussion is expected according to the rules set by the mods, not juvenile snide remarks, non sequiturs, or strawman arguments.

I think your questions have been addressed many times over in the course of this thread, but obviously you have chosen to remain steadfast in your position. ...

I'd like to think I've asked some fairly intelligent questions here. The fact that I've been given a series of fallacious arguments in return is understandable, given the circumstances of the supporting evidence - or lack thereof. If you need to trash me for this viewpoint, it doesn't prevent me from hoping I can come away from the topic with something useful.

And as for the Jesuits, I am very fascinated with the old Jesuits- their high IQ, cunning, and hardy constitution. I have reflected on the fact that should I have been out in those mountains and something had happened to me, and provided that I was prepared properly, and did the right thing (informing another person of my whereabouts), I was mere hours from either SAR, or a hospital that was equipped to handle most anything. Those old Jesuits out on the frontier were hundreds of miles from the nearest "hospital" (and I use that word liberally) or at least days of riding from the nearest mission, should something bad have happened to them. That to me, takes a special type of mental toughness.

However as far as what they did, I will not hesitate to call a spade, a spade. I understand that what they did, they did so according to their primitive belief system at the time and so I don't really hold that against them, but that still does not absolve them of what they did.

They were far from being angels.

I agree wholeheartedly with this. However, the Jesuits were primarily settlers, a situation which carries with it at least some degree of security. If I were in bad trouble in the Southwestern wilderness in pre-modern times, needing help from independent, mentally-tough guys, my first call would be to the ca 1820-1840 fur trappers.

 

[Springfield]

First: It NOWHERE states that the Jesuits provided labor for anybody but THEMSELVES! ..

"In all parts of its American possessions the Spanish crown encouraged mining, offering every facility and giving military protection. Here as elsewhere, hundreds of adventurous Spaniards prospected the hills and mountains, exploiting valuable mines paying readily to the treasury of the sovereign one a fifth and to the coffers of the church another fifth of their gross product. As their labor was very cheap, giving the Indians a bare subsistence, with which the latter were content ..."


​Still sounds to me that the Spanish did the mining with slaves provided by the brothers. This kinda supports one of your earlier posts inferring that the Jesuits' wealth came primarily from their business deals, not necessarily from their mining. The Bird passage quacks like a business deal to me - payment in metal in exchange for supplying the chain gang.

 

[cactusjumper]

Springfield,

I believe the Jesuits required the mines to pay the Indians for their work.

Take care,

Joe

 

[deducer]

The fact that I've been given a series of fallacious arguments in return is understandable, given the circumstances of the supporting evidence - or lack thereof.

What, exactly, is fallacious about this?

View attachment 995543

 

[Springfield]

What, exactly, is fallacious about this?

View attachment 995543

I held a twenty pound brick of melted gold coins once - outlaw loot. I mentioned to its owner that it's the kind of thing you see in treasure magazines. "No you don't," he said.

I'd like to believe that 1986 Treasure article, but I can't vouch for it. Is the '82-pound' story 'fallacious' - supported by faulty logic? I don't think so, but the story is simply either true or disinformative. I do know that if I had found 82 pounds of gold bars, there is no chance that I would have advertised my good fortune, now or ever

 

[gollum]

I held a twenty pound brick of melted gold coins once - outlaw loot. I mentioned to its owner that it's the kind of thing you see in treasure magazines. "No you don't," he said.

I'd like to believe that 1986 Treasure article, but I can't vouch for it. Is the '82-pound' story 'fallacious' - supported by faulty logic? I don't think so, but the story is simply either true or disinformative. I do know that if I had found 82 pounds of gold bars, there is no chance that I would have advertised my good fortune, now or ever

Maybe not you or your friend, but this man did (maybe a little ego involved? He had three partners, and none of them made any public appearances). I know him personally, and he still lives in Tucson. To this day, he has never been contacted by the IRS or any government agency. Simply because it would be too hard to prove a case. All he has to say is either "I never told Mike that is what happened" or "I made the whole thing up, and those bars were fake." Who can prove him wrong in either case? ............and the story you see on my website is exactly as he told it to me. There is nothing DISINFORMATIVE about it. He goes into great detail about the time frame and how the group figured out the cache.

One of the reasons I personally believe the story (other than the veracity of the man himself whom I know), he never suggested the cache had anything to do with the Jesuits (read the entire article).

82 found

In the article, he just mentions the Cross on the rock. He and his partners failed to see the heart under the cross on that rock.



Between that and the Cross with "V" symbols on the bars, he didn't think anything about the Jesuits until 25 years later when I told him! The entire article rings very true:

1. Searched the mountains from 1956 until 1986. Thirty years with no major finds.
2. Found the Mayan Number Rock in 1983, but didn't figure it out for three years.
3. Didn't realize the Jesuit Connection until 25 years after the fact.
4. Kenworthy found 1028 bars of silver in a hole not very many miles from the location of this find.

Aside from those two treasure stories (that are made public), I am suspect of everything else. There are a few more that I know to be true because I know the people involved, but those stories I promised to never put on paper or websites. Maybe after the guys pass on, I will tell them. What got me into all this was an 8x10 glossy of a guy I know kneeling next to a stack of gold dore and finger bars 3ft x 3ft x 6ft. It took me couple of years of knowing this guy just to see the picture.

So Springfield,

I understand your friend wanting his find to remain a secret from all but a few. Most of the seven or so people I have met that have made extraordinary finds want their finds to be kept a secret as long as they are alive. Even the late Chuck Kenworthy. He published several books. It would have greatly added to his credibility if he would have publicized his finds. He kept them mostly a secret except for a few friends. The few finds I have made, I haven't detailed. None of them put me on easy street, though.

What really sticks in my craw though, is the fact that you call all the facts presented as fallacious. Maybe you should speak to an actual Jesuit Historian as I have. Joe knows my source, and trusts him implicitly. Here was his answer to my question of "If the Jesuit Fathers had been involved (directly or indirectly) in mining, why would they still deny it 300 years later?"

His answer:

Dear Mike....I can't think of any reason they would deny it later...unless it was part and parcel of a larger picture, viz., to deny
any "commercial" activity, as defense against enemies who used that against them. jwo

Now, if he would have said, "They still deny it because it never happened", I would have been good with that. BUT HE DIDN'T! He gave me a very good reason. This man is probably the preeminent Jesuit Historian in the world. He is a Jesuit Priest that has written books on the subject, and teaches at Georgetown University. Would you like to call his words fallacious?

Best - Mike

 

[Oroblanco]

Springfield wrote

It's a forum, deducer - not a blog.

For what it is worth, you are correct; this is a forum, and also not a criminal court. We are not bound by rules of "beyond a reasonable doubt". Considering what this is all about, it is more like a civil court case, in which the burden of proof is very simple - more likely than not, or 51%.

Oroblanco