JESUIT TREASURES - ARE THEY REAL?

[releventchair]

Page 34 perhaps and its mention of missionary mine working. Author certainly suggests its the right state for precious stuff.

 

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[deducer]

Page 34 perhaps and its mention of missionary mine working. Author certainly suggests its the right state for precious stuff.

Page 116 near the bottom is also relevant. Note that in regard to Tumacacori, even by 1880, the author states that "nothing remain[ed] to tell of Jesuit energy and endeavor."

 

[deducer]

It seems to me that the more I question such "facts" only makes for more research and a better argument all around.

It really does, and I appreciate you doing that. It keeps the debate clean and interesting.

 

[cactusjumper]

Page 34 perhaps and its mention of missionary mine working. Author certainly suggests its the right state for precious stuff.

deducer,

I have read the report, and the author only mentions the Jesuit's three times. If you find "It is believed the Jesuit Missionaries operated here...." to be some kind of smoking gun for your theory, I believe you are mistaken.

Take care,

Joe

 

[cactusjumper]

Page 124 near the bottom is also relevant. Note that in regard to Tumacacori, even by 1880, the author states that "nothing remain[ed] to tell of Jesuit energy and endeavor."

deducer,

Perhaps he was referring to the mission buildings, which would certainly been true . The tunnels could have been anyone's.

You should not make the mistake of thinking I would not follow up on any given lead. Some I have investigated years ago and have hard copies in my library.

Take care,

Joe

 

[releventchair]

Did not find a 124. Ends at 120.

 

[cactusjumper]

Did not find a 124. Ends at 120.

releventchair,

Nice catch! My copy ends at 120 as well. Maybe we were shortchanged. Then again, maybe it's at the bottom of page 116.

Take care,

Joe

 

[deducer]

deducer,

I have read the report, and the author only mentions the Jesuit's three times. If you find "It is believed the Jesuit Missionaries operated here...." to be some kind of smoking gun for your theory, I believe you are mistaken.

Take care,

Joe

You have taken that quote out of context.

The full sentence is: "At what time the first discoveries were made by Europeans is not clear, although it is believed that the Jesuit Missionaries operated here as early as the latter part of the 17th century."

So he is obviously referring to the question of when the Europeans first discovered the mines.

 

[deducer]

deducer,

Perhaps he was referring to the mission buildings, which would certainly been true . The tunnels could have been anyone's.

You should not make the mistake of thinking I would not follow up on any given lead. Some I have investigated years ago and have hard copies in my library.

Take care,

Joe

In the first part of the sentence, he says "Tumacacori was at one time the richest of the Arizona missions, and was the scene of an active and prosperous mining industry.." so it is obvious what he means by "Jesuit energy and endeavor."

And as he said "nothing remains... save the (old church, shafts, and tunnels).." he does not mean those when he wrote "nothing remains to tell of Jesuit energy and endeavor." As obviously those things are still around.

 

[deducer]

Did not find a 124. Ends at 120.

My mistake, it is on the actual 116th page of the book at the bottom.

 

[cactusjumper]

You have taken that quote out of context.

The full sentence is: "At what time the first discoveries were made by Europeans is not clear, although it is believed that the Jesuit Missionaries operated here as early as the latter part of the 17th century."

So he is obviously referring to the question of when the Europeans first discovered the mines.

deducer,

Not at all. Here is what I was referring to:

"I have read the report, and the author only mentions the Jesuit's three times. If you find "It is believed the Jesuit Missionaries operated here...." to be some kind of smoking gun for your theory, I believe you are mistaken."

I purposely highlighted "It is believed" to show the weakness of the statement. He did not even say.....I believe. In addition to that, as I also said: " the author only mentions the Jesuit's three times." That does not seem to indicate any real importance to "Jesuit mining". I know he makes references beyond naming the Jesuits directly, but I still feel it's a pretty weak indictment. After all, you are trying to convince me. Got to come to the dance with something a little more convincing than that.

Good luck,

Joe

 

[deducer]

deducer,

Not at all. Here is what I was referring to:

"I have read the report, and the author only mentions the Jesuit's three times. If you find "It is believed the Jesuit Missionaries operated here...." to be some kind of smoking gun for your theory, I believe you are mistaken."

I purposely highlighted "It is believed" to show the weakness of the statement. He did not even say.....I believe. In addition to that, as I also said: " the author only mentions the Jesuit's three times." That does not seem to indicate any real importance to "Jesuit mining". I know he makes references beyond naming the Jesuits directly, but I still feel it's a pretty weak indictment. After all, you are trying to convince me. Got to come to the dance with something a little more convincing than that.

Good luck,

Joe

Once more, the adjectives and verbs used, relate to the subject of the sentence which is "discoveries":

At what time the first discoveries were made by Europeans is not clear, although it is believed that the Jesuit Missionaries operated here as early as the latter part of the 17th century.

Why is it important that the Jesuits are mentioned only three times? After all, the report is not exclusively restricted to mining, but encompasses the territory of Arizona.

Also, nowhere did I say that "this" was "the smoking gun," and in fact it is just one of the many instances shown to you in these past few pages that strongly hint at, if not prove outright, industrious Jesuit mining activity at Tumacacori and Guevavi, and most of which you have yet to respond to.

 

[cactusjumper]

Once more, the adjectives and verbs used, relate to the subject of the sentence which is "discoveries":



Why is it important that the Jesuits are mentioned only three times? After all, the report is not exclusively restricted to mining, but encompasses the territory of Arizona.

Also, nowhere did I say that "this" was "the smoking gun," and in fact it is just one of the many instances shown to you in these past few pages that strongly hint at, if not prove outright, industrious Jesuit mining activity at Tumacacori and Guevavi, and most of which you have yet to respond to.

deducer,

I see.....and you place no importance in the fact that he wrote "it is believed" instead of it is known?

As for how long it takes me to respond to everyone's statements of "fact", I have to research the true history before I reply. I notice you only do an Internet search on key words and reply very quickly. I like to have a broader scope of information on the subject first. That would be why you quoted page "127"......in error.

Take care,

Joe

 

[releventchair]

The mention of climate leads me to a cliff. Were favor required to determine station regardless of whether a mission was established and easier,if providing precious metals to the order gained favor enough to keep me out of a deep snow winter the metals were not for me they were for the order and wheres the shovel.
Knowledge of South America,s works were not secrets. Nor the mining in North America. Many missions in milder climates.While many hairy legged ol boys knew privation at its root even if it was not a constant,add bitter cold as a threat.Add the Apache welcoming all who would be martyrs in the S.W. and a station elsewhere would sound good too.

 

[Oroblanco]

Another long winded one so I must ask your indulgence yet again, thank you in advance.

Cactusjumper wrote

Roy, My Friend,

I don't believe any of the slag was removed for the silver content. To be a profitable project, I suspect you would need many hundreds, if not thousands, of tons of material. I doubt any prospector would do that......for practice?

Well we have a report that the now-missing slag was hauled away and sold for the silver content. So you are stating that the man who claimed the slag was sold for the silver content is lying. Can you provide some other explanation as to where it went and for what purpose? Copper perhaps? It would be unique if the slag were taken and sold for copper content, as I have never heard of anyone ever doing that. Copper prices are simply not high enough. So as you do not believe that slag was removed for the silver, what happened to it? The slag heaps are missing today, except for two which were only recently found. Thanks in advance;

Cactusjumper also wrote

I am hardly "dismissive", rather I think I am suspicious of many "facts". My past experiences with a "friend" have made me much worse I fear. It seems to me that the more I question such "facts" only makes for more research and a better argument all around.

Your statement previous, quote

Treasure hunters are convinced with the smallest amount of "evidence" and "documentation". Anything that gives even the slightest hint to further their beliefs is always blown out of all proportion.

is quite dismissive to my eyes; it does not further the discussion in any way other than casting aspersions on treasure hunters as gullible, wishful-thinking and ready to blow any tiny piece of evidence out of proportion.

Cactusjumper also wrote

deducer,

I have read the report, and the author only mentions the Jesuit's three times. If you find "It is believed the Jesuit Missionaries operated here...." to be some kind of smoking gun for your theory, I believe you are mistaken.

You are making a big deal out of the statements in Hamilton's report, and I read it much the same as Deducer, not that it was "believed" that the Jesuits were working mine, at which point you cut off the remainder of the statement, but the relevant portion "AS EARLY AS" Since you see Hamilton's statements as SO blurred and vague enough as to not support the contention that the Jesuits were mining, how about this?

About one hundred and fifty years later or in 1687 the Jesuit missionaries Fathers Kina and Salvatiero established the first mission within the region now known as Arizona. Thirty years later there were nine missions firmly established. It is known that the Jesuit fathers in charge of the missions gave some attention to mining and there are many places where remains of the Mexican style of furnace are found as well as piles of slag which bear witness of the enterprise and industry of these early metallurgists

Report of the Governor of Arizona to the Secretary of the Interior for the year ending June 30, 1902, page 33

Is that a clear enough statement, not "believed" but KNOWN? I think we have posted other such statements before, and NOT from any treasure hunter nor treasure author, like this one:

The first civilized men to visit the Arizona region were the Spanish Jesuit missionaries who from Sonora in 1687 explored the valley of Santa Cruz River and considerable portions of the Gila and San Pedro valleys. Their reports of the fertile valleys and mineral wealth of this new country led to the establishment on the Santa Cruz of the missions of San Xavier del Bac, Tumacacori, Santiago, and San Cayetano, the town of Tubac and farther north that of Tucson. The first mission in Arizona was established at Guevavi or Guebabi about 30 miles south of Tucson in 1687 and those of San Xavier and Tumacacori soon followed. These missions have an important bearing on the mining history of the region in that their founders and keepers the Jesuit fathers were in a sense the pioneer miners of the country and conducted mining operations with a considerable force of men mostly impressed Indians in connection with their missionary work. That they must have operated on a considerable scale is indicated by the extent of the workings and the slag dumps still seen near the mission ruins They named the old Salero and other mines in the Santa Rita region. The San Xavier mission 9 miles south of Tucson founded prior to 1694 and still standing an object of visit to tourists is described as a large church with imposing architecture in which $40,000 in solid silver taken from the mines in the Santa Rita Mountains near by was used to adorn the altar

Mineral Deposits of the Santa Rita and Patagonia Mountains, Arizona, By Frank Charles Schrader, James Madison Hill, USGS, pp 21

Nothing "believed" about those statements either.
What about a case where "believed" is used, along with positive statements:

The French mine is one of the old workings of the Jesuits.

<pp 302>

It is not known at precisely what time the mines were first worked by Americans but it is pretty generally believed from the best evidence attainable that the Jesuits commenced mining operations in this county about the year 1650 and as early as 1700 many valuable mines were discovered and opened in what are now known as the Oro Blanco, Patagonia, Santa Rita, and Arivaca districts in all of which localities old shafts tunnels and other evidences showing ancient and extensive workings abound while in some instances rich mines that are known to have been operated by these enterprising people have never been found notwithstanding the most diligent and patient search

<pp 301>

As in Tyndall district evidences of ancient workings appear on many of the veins leading to the belief that many of the rich mines worked by the Jesuits are located in this section.

Extracts from REPORT OF THE DIRECTOR OF THE MINT UPON THE STATISTICS OF THE PRODUCTION OF THE PRECIOUS METALS IN THE UNITED STATES, 1882

If you do not believe that anyone could re-work slag for silver, profitably, look up the ancient Athenian silver mines of Laurium mountain, in which example large piles of ancient slag were profitably re-worked. Just because you might not be willing to haul some slag to a smelter for cash (for the silver) does not mean that others would not take advantage of it.

Please do continue,
Roy ~ Oroblanco

 

[gollum]

Mike,

He didn't need a translation as he is very fluent in Spanish.

Take care,

Joe

Are you saying that Mr Bird is fluent in Spanish? I didn't know the man, and could not say.

Mike

 

[gollum]

Joe, Very simply, the preponderance of evidence for Jesuit Mining and wealth is on the side of the believers. In the 127 pages of this thread several people have posted numerous articles, official documents, etc, showing that the Jesuit Order was neck deep in many different businesses (all "FOR PROFIT" which was banned by Ecclesiastical Precept), including mining, herding horses, sheep, and cattle, raising and selling crops, owning the richest sugar plantations in the New World. Now, I know that the workaround (read: LOOPHOLE) in the Precept against Jesuits operating any business for profit was that the few places that made a lot of money, basically supported the rest of the missions in the New World and elsewhere. That is not REALLY a legitimate argument, because the King of Spain had agreed to the Jesuit request of 200 pesos per man (Jesuit) in the New World. Now granted, 200 pesos might support a poor missionero and a poor adobe mission. 200 pesos would not support:



My guess is that fantastically decorated missions required a bit more money. Why decorate a mission thusly, when they all took such vows of poverty? Because the Catholic Church and Saint Ignatius Loyola TOLD THEM TO!

Although in these miserable times opposing opinions have arisen among critics, some praising and others condemning the care and expense of adorning and maintaining the temples with all possible dignity and decency for the reverence due to the Supreme Maker of all creation, I will not enter into a dispute over the subject, but I believe in what Our Mother, the Holy Roman Catholic Church, has always praised, approved, practised, and in a certain fashion glorified in the lives of its Saints. One learns from the lessons of St Ignatius of Loyola, father and founder of the Society of Jesus, when he says in praise of that Holy Patriarch, “Templorum nitor, catechismi traditio, concionum ac Sacramentorum frequentia ab ipso incrementum accepere.”I shall say that my heart rejoices with delight, and I feel more inclined to worship and praise Our Lord when I enter any well adorned church. I must let the admiration argument prevail, a maiori ad minorem [from the highest to the lowest], for if we who are more rational than the Indians find incentive and devotion in temples that outshine others by their glowing adornments and will choose those in preference to the slovenly ones for Mass, Sermon, Confession, and Communion, how much more must the Indians be in need of such stimuli when nothing of what they hear takes hold upon them unless it enters through their eyes with some sort of demonstration of the Supreme Creator about whom the preacher is speaking? So, when they see that the house of God is well ordered, clean, and beautifully adorned, they perceive at once the magnificence of its Owner and Ruler. I praise the missionaries of Sonora for imitating their great Father St. Ignatius.

Jesuit apologists come and go, and when presented with a preponderance of evidence they fade into the sunset, or they pretend that someone has insulted them or the Order, or carry on nebulous arguments about minutiae so as to let several pages go by in hopes that everybody will forget about the questions they couldn't answer without basically agreeing with their opponents. Over the ten years I have been on this and other forums, I have seen the exact same actions and reactions from several different people (and sometimes several aliases of the same person).

Love him or hate him, Jim Hatt always had the best response about the constant naysayers: "Forget them. Once you have gotten to a place where you believe fully about something, go out and put you feet in the mountains. If you have proven something to yourself beyond a reasonable doubt, it doesn't matter what other people think. THAT just wastes your time."

RIP Jim

Best- Mike

 

[deducer]

I see.....and you place no importance in the fact that he wrote "it is believed" instead of it is known?

Insofar as he is making an educated guess as to when Europeans first discovered mining in Arizona, no.

As for how long it takes me to respond to everyone's statements of "fact", I have to research the true history before I reply. I notice you only do an Internet search on key words and reply very quickly. I like to have a broader scope of information on the subject first. That would be why you quoted page "127"......in error.

The manner in which I do some quick research still does not have any bearing on the veracity of the sources I quote.

If you are insinuating that this is the only way I do research on this subject, you are quite mistaken.

 

[releventchair]

Hey I mess up numbers regular. It was easily remedied. Interesting that as gollum mentioned there are 127 pages on this thread. and Joe says 127 was misquoted instead of 124. l.o.l..
Again thanks gollum and all for your patience.If I never hit desert sand again it will in my mind be richer than it was last time after reading here, and should boredom set in down the road there will be Jesuits to chase by other means.
Peace to all.

 

[Springfield]

Mike, page 3 from the Bird document seems to provide a confusing message. Do you support the notion that 'hundreds of Spanish adventurers', with encouragement and military protection from the Crown, were doing most of the mining in the Santa Cruz Valley during this period - and were not only paying their fifth to the Crown, but an additional fifth to the church, which was apparently not mining, but providing slaves to the Spanish (as Bird seems to be indicating), who were? If this is true, it seems to change things. Please explain.

Deducer, the Hamilton report, while useful on several levels, nonetheless was published (as clearly stated in the Authorization Act on Page 5) to entice capitalists to invest in Arizona mines. 10,000 copies were printed for this purpose. There's nothing wrong with this - it was a common practice then, and is now, for states looking for growth. However, I would be cautious relying on everything stated therein as 'factual'. The Arizona mines' history and potential are presented in the very best light, but supported by less than definitive sources. It's a sell job, and a good one - its why Hamilton was hired.

Oro - no need to apologize for the lack of reliable data. It is what it is. This is why we're asking the questions. Don't get frustrated that some of us need more than conjecture. We want to believe - really.