JESUIT TREASURES - ARE THEY REAL?

[deducer]

I think that's probably the case. History often comes in differing versions.... one for private and one for public.
And sometimes those who are not infallible get the pieces mixed up. More so as time marches on.
I see no problem rationalizing either version, and don't see the display itself as being indicative of minimal or especially any "vast" treasure accumulated and concealed by Jesuits or Franciscans. Roxas built a church at Arispe, which I am sure he equipped with a bell, so it wouldn't be out of place for a statue of him to feature both bell and church were the Jesuits inclined to honour him with such. That they haven't simply suggests a lack of recognition on their part IMO, perhaps because he was one who helped to turn out the lights on an era they would sooner was forgotten. Perhaps the story related to the posters on DUSA was a muddied version of something related to the contents of this letter from Roxas.... https://uair.arizona.edu/item/217866...
Although Bacoachi is located about 70 mi to the NE of Arispe, rather than to the SE where the "bell" story placed the mines.

Regards:SH.

I have had a devil of a time trying to get the DRSW to issue me a full text document of any of the letters. Have you had any luck?

I should get into the habit of writing "Roxas" from now on, especially after seeing how his name is spelled on the facade of the church in Arizpe. I noticed that Ginny Sphar who did much of the excellent research on the Jesuits for the NPS database, had always spelled his name that way. I tried to reach out to her for more information only to find out she passed away last year.

Incidentally, the page for Roxas's biography on NPS is blank. As you say, he has been..... redacted!

 

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[Oroblanco]

Somehiker - thanks for the letter, I don't think I had seen that one before. The summary is interesting enough;

Gives population figures for the three pueblos under his administration. Describes their location. Mentions epidemics. Mentions gold deposits discovered near Bacoachi, of such magnitude that he fears the effects of a massive influx of Spaniards. Attributes several deaths to the Apaches. Notes that they are in danger of losing the province due to military inaction. Discusses the placement of new missions among various Indian groups, as well as the successes of established ones. (R. Perez) (1977)

Why should father Roxas be alarmed at an influx of a large number of Spaniards to the gold discovery? Shouldn't he be thrilled at the prospects of greatly increasing the sales of the mission agricultural products, as well as the donations of the Spanish miners to come? Or is it that he wants to keep the gold for the Jesuits, keep the Spanish from impinging on the growth of the Mission system, perhaps recruiting "their" Indians to work in the mines and not to mention, a desire to not have hungry Spaniards eating up the food and practically stealing the livestock without ever offering to pay for it? We can not know what was in the heart of father Rojas of course, but judging by other factors only, I find it suspicious, and only one of many such tidbits.

Oh well, beating the dead horse some more, never expected this would be such a lengthy debate nor so interesting.

Deducer I do not know the source of your friction with my friend Cactusjumper Joe, but I have seen his rather impressive library in person and found him to be a most gracious person (and host) no matter what our differences of opinion are, and we have several. Having held a number of debates with Joe I can attest to his excellent research - on the other hand, I do not know you at all. I do not have a bone to pick with you either just asking to please keep our discussions civil, they will get much farther that way. I too am guilty of letting things get out of hand (verbally) without even thinking about it so not throwing stones at anyone in particular. Let me approach this topic of the statue and father Roxas from a different angle:

Why would you think that someone would identify father Rojas in particular to be honored, whether by this statue in question or another? What makes him such a major player in the history of the Jesuits in Pimeria? Thank you in advance, and an OPINION is fine as an answer. Also, it might help if we knew your real name, not that it is required in any way, just lets us be a bit less formal and can get to know each other, at least until we can ever manage to meet in person. I have met a number of the members whom post on the treasure forums in person, and have never been disappointed, all have turned out to be even more charming and affable in person than the impression from internet communications only including the sometimes prickly Cactusjumper. Oh and in case you have not seen it before my name is Roy A. Decker, aka Oroblanco where ever I go online not any other ID.

Good luck and good hunting amigos, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco

 

[deducer]

Why would you think that someone would identify father Rojas in particular to be honored, whether by this statue in question or another? What makes him such a major player in the history of the Jesuits in Pimeria? Thank you in advance, and an OPINION is fine as an answer. Also, it might help if we knew your real name, not that it is required in any way, just lets us be a bit less formal and can get to know each other, at least until we can ever manage to meet in person. I have met a number of the members whom post on the treasure forums in person, and have never been disappointed, all have turned out to be even more charming and affable in person than the impression from internet communications only including the sometimes prickly Cactusjumper. Oh and in case you have not seen it before my name is Roy A. Decker, aka Oroblanco where ever I go online not any other ID.

Not sure I can answer the first question, but as to the second question, Roxas in the larger tapestry of Jesuit history in New Spain, particularly at the time leading up to the expulsion was simply in the right place at the right time, and of the correct pedigree to be substantially invested in what was going on (in not being restricted as an ordinary father rector would be). He also has an unexplained absence, IIRC, from 1764 on, up to the date of the expulsion. By and large, information on him is very hard to come by- we don't even know what he looks like, yet he was not only Padre Visitador, but also Visitador General, he was also close with the powerful Anza family (having baptized Anza's sons, and wed Anza II). So in other words, Roxas was close to another major player in the Pimeria Alta:

De Anza rose to the rank of Captain in 1726 and succeeded Quirós at Fronteras, and became responsible for assigning soldiers to amongst others, the (wait for it) upper Santa Cruz River Valleys in the Pimería Alta (from the NPS database). It's not farfetched to imagine him assigning hand-picked soldiers for certain, sensitive tasks. So we have a very good friend of the Jesuits in a very critical position, as far as the "Crown's army" in the Pimeria Alta, is concerned.

Yet, we know almost nothing about him. The NPS entry on him is blank. Any inquiry about Roxas directed to the Jesuit community has been stonewalled. Why?

And this also plays a part in answering your next question, namely my true identity. Someday you and Joe will know who I am, as will everyone else- and I am sure I will have the pleasure of eventually meeting you and Joe in person; just not just yet, due to a number of reasons.

One example:

A number of years back, Tracy Hawkins posted on the LDM forum about a set of books he found at the Phoenix library, "Religious Conquest of the Americas" which, IMHO, had very incriminating evidence in that it published letters sent between missions that directly implicated not only Jesuit intrigue into mining but active concealment of "church treasure." After posting about this set of books, he decided to go back to obtain more information from these books, but according to him they had disappeared- so unless Tracy made the whole thing up (and he strikes me as a fairly straightforward and honest person, and I am sure Joe will vouch for this), these forums are apparently monitored by or read by more than just the registered posters. In this regard, I have chosen to stay completely anonymous, and divulge nothing about the nature of my research, what end it is directed towards, where I do my research, or even what focus my research is on.

Maybe this is overkill, or taking things to the extreme, but better to be safe than sorry, as they say.

 

[cactusjumper]

Not sure I can answer the first question, but as to the second question, Roxas in the larger tapestry of Jesuit history in New Spain, particularly at the time leading up to the expulsion was simply in the right place at the right time, and of the correct pedigree to be substantially invested in what was going on (in not being restricted as an ordinary father rector would be). He also has an unexplained absence, IIRC, from 1764 on, up to the date of the expulsion. By and large, information on him is very hard to come by- we don't even know what he looks like, yet he was not only Padre Visitador, but also Visitador General, he was also close with the powerful Anza family (having baptized Anza's sons, and wed Anza II). So in other words, Roxas was close to another major player in the Pimeria Alta:



Yet, we know almost nothing about him. The NPS entry on him is blank. Any inquiry about Roxas directed to the Jesuit community has been stonewalled. Why?

And this also plays a part in answering your next question, namely my true identity. Someday you and Joe will know who I am, as will everyone else- and I am sure I will have the pleasure of eventually meeting you and Joe in person; just not just yet, due to a number of reasons.

One example:

A number of years back, Tracy Hawkins posted on the LDM forum about a set of books he found at the Phoenix library, "Religious Conquest of the Americas" which, IMHO, had very incriminating evidence in that it published letters sent between missions that directly implicated not only Jesuit intrigue into mining but active concealment of "church treasure." After posting about this set of books, he decided to go back to obtain more information from these books, but according to him they had disappeared- so unless Tracy made the whole thing up (and he strikes me as a fairly straightforward and honest person, and I am sure Joe will vouch for this), these forums are apparently monitored by or read by more than just the registered posters. In this regard, I have chosen to stay completely anonymous, and divulge nothing about the nature of my research, what end it is directed towards, where I do my research, or even what focus my research is on.

Maybe this is overkill, or taking things to the extreme, but better to be safe than sorry, as they say.

deducer,

Sorry to say I can't back up the claim that I highlighted in bold. I knew Tracy quite well over many years. He was my uncle's partner for a number of those years. Tracy was one of the great prevaricators of our time, like many other old time prospectors. He was great fun to listen to around the campfire.

Tracy was a great guy, and I was happy to talk him into coming to a Dutch Hunter's Rendezvous a few years ago. It took me a couple of years to get him there. He loved it! Many old friends and even some of his partners were there. He died before he could get to another event. He will be missed.

There is quite a bit of information on Father Rojas out there. It's not really that hard to find, if you have enough books. For some good information on his time at Arispe, you might try "Paths of the Padres Through Sonora" by Paul M. Roca. It's a good book to have with tons of great information.

"which, IMHO, had very incriminating evidence in that it published letters sent between missions that directly implicated not only Jesuit intrigue into mining but active concealment of "church treasure."

Don't know how you got that information out of what was posted.

Wayne,

Father Rojas did not build the Jesuit Church in Arispe.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[somehiker]

"Wayne,

Father Rojas did not build the Jesuit Church in Arispe."

Joe:

While it may be a question of semantics and I will need to revisit my sources relating to the history of Nuestra Señora de la Asunción (1756), I do believe Fr.Roxas is known to have done some work on the church during his time in Arispe.

"74. Mission Nuestra Señora de la Asunción de Arizpe was located on a plateau west of the Bacanuche River just north of its junction with the Sonora in north-central Sonora. Franciscans from the New Mexico Province began proselytizing in the area about 1642. A Jesuit (Jeronimo de la Canal) began visiting the local residents in 1646, and baptismal records began in 1648. Felipe Esgrecho became the first resident Jesuit missionary in 1650. The last Jesuit at Arizpe, Carlos Rojas, served there over 35 years, and greatly improved the still-standing church."
.....Notes to the Chapters

Regards:Wayne

 

[deducer]

deducer,

Sorry to say I can't back up the claim that I highlighted in bold. I knew Tracy quite well over many years. He was my uncle's partner for a number of those years. Tracy was one of the great prevaricators of our time, like many other old time prospectors. He was great fun to listen to around the campfire.

Tracy was a great guy, and I was happy to talk him into coming to a Dutch Hunter's Rendezvous a few years ago. It took me a couple of years to get him there. He loved it! Many old friends and even some of his partners were there. He died before he could get to another event. He will be missed.

There is quite a bit of information on Father Rojas out there. It's not really that hard to find, if you have enough books. For some good information on his time at Arispe, you might try "Paths of the Padres Through Sonora" by Paul M. Roca. It's a good book to have with tons of great information.

I will be sure to check out that book.

It still remains that information on Roxas is not easily accessible online, anywhere.

I am, of course, not saying that you can vouch for the library story, since you were not there- the other person who was with Tracy at the time of the story was Ernie Provence and he also has passed away. I am saying that you can vouch for Tracy's integrity as a person, but if you suddenly can't, I will be happy to dig up a few posts by you from the old LDM forum in which you endorsed him. After all, he was a close associate of your uncle for many years.

While Roxas technically did not build the Nuestra Señora de la Asunción de Arizpe he did leave quite a mark on the church in that the way it exists and looks today is pretty much because of what Roxas did to it, not what the original builder did. So it would not altogether be remiss to say that Roxas "built the church in Arizpe."

Something interesting I found:

"which, IMHO, had very incriminating evidence in that it published letters sent between missions that directly implicated not only Jesuit intrigue into mining but active concealment of "church treasure."

Don't know how you got that information out of what was posted.

Well, it would seem to me that if Tracy said that the books consisted of facsimiles of letters to and from missions detailing the shipping of "church treasure up north," these hand-written letters would be addressed to specific individuals, and signed by specific individuals, which would in itself be pretty incriminating.

It's too bad Tracy didn't have the presence of mind to record the names involved to give us something to go on.

 

[cactusjumper]

Gentlemen,

It's quite true that Father Rojas did a lot of work on the Arispe Church. The church itself, was built and was in use long before he was born.

As for Tracy, it was Ernie I was talking about earlier. My mistake I was never able to talk Tracy into coming to the Rendezvous, even though we offered to give him a place to sleep and a ride.

Good luck,

Joe

 

[UncleMatt]

When it comes to backing up claims with sources, I think sometimes people take that request as derogatory, when actually people are seeking closure. We all want to believe, and we seek the proofs to make such belief a reality. We would all like to approach the art of treasure hunting as if it were a science, when many of the things we pursue are simply never going to meet that threshold of scientific validity. If there were bonafide references to back up what we often seek to validate, any treasures that actually existed would have been found long ago by those who came before us. I know I feel frustration when I am unable to verify a claim that someone here has made, and I am sure others feel that way as well. But I also acknowledge that often there are simply no sources or references to refer to for many of the issues we labor over here. At least, not that will provide the closure we all seek one way or the other.

 

[cactusjumper]

UM,

Stories, and rumors are one thing. When someone makes a historical claim, he or she should give a reference.

Take care,

Joe

 

[deducer]

Gentlemen,

It's quite true that Father Rojas did a lot of work on the Arispe Church. The church itself, was built and was in use long before he was born.

What I have been able to gather is that the construction of El Templo de Nuestra Señora de la Asunción (the temple) was begun in 1646, but it only was referred to as a church circa 1756 and after, as in Nuestra Señora de la Asunción, Arizpe. It may have been that Roxas took over the building and turned it into a church in 1756. We know his name is on the plaque above the entrance doors.

 

[cactusjumper]

What I have been able to gather is that the construction of El Templo de Nuestra Señora de la Asunción (the temple) was begun in 1646, but it only was referred to as a church circa 1756 and after, as in Nuestra Señora de la Asunción, Arizpe. It may have been that Roxas took over the building and turned it into a church in 1756. We know his name is on the plaque above the entrance doors.

deducer,

It seems that we know quite a bit about Father Rojas. Quite a bit is missing because of his long spells of illness.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[UncleMatt]

I completely agree. Please don't take my previous post as promoting license to make claims without supporting facts. I would love it if everyone posted references with what they post when making claims. That would make it much easier for me to verify what they are claiming, but I also recognize memories fade, and stacks of books become large.

UM,

Stories, and rumors are one thing. When someone makes a historical claim, he or she should give a reference.

Take care,

Joe

 

[cactusjumper]

deducer,

"Yet, we know almost nothing about him. The NPS entry on him is blank. Any inquiry about Roxas directed to the Jesuit community has been stonewalled. Why?"

The reason the NPS entry is blank is because the historian who was in charge of building that site......died. It remains in limbo. Source was Anita, who is in overall charge of the history for NPS at Tumacacori.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[somehiker]

It is indeed unfortunate that "the historian who was in charge of building that site......died."
Also unfortunate that some of the links I had saved previously, relating to Roxas and Arispe, also seemed to have passed on.
example:
http://www.nps.gov/archive/tuma/Arispe.html

 

[deducer]

deducer,

It seems that we know quite a bit about Father Rojas. Quite a bit is missing because of his long spells of illness.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

If, as you say, there is plenty on Roxas out there, perhaps you could help to fill in some of the missing information?

Exactly what illness was he suffering from? Where did he convalesce? Who took his place while he was "out of circulation?"

 

[deducer]

It is indeed unfortunate that "the historian who was in charge of building that site......died."
Also unfortunate that some of the links I had saved previously, relating to Roxas and Arispe, also seemed to have passed on.
example:
http://www.nps.gov/archive/tuma/Arispe.html

Not only is the entry on Roxas blank, but so is the entry on Nuestra Señora de la Asunción, Arizpe

Nuestra Señora de la Asunción de Arizpe - Tumacácori National Historical Park (U.S. National Park Service)

I sent an email inquiring about this and the email was answered by an individual who took Ginny Spar's place (the person who died). She did not have an answer for why those two items remain blank to this day.

For those who are not aware of who Ginny Sphar was, she was a volunteer who helped compile biographies of Jesuit Missionaries in the Southwest for the NPS (National Park Service) database, and for a non-scholar, non-paid individual she did quite a fantastic job.

Example:

Ignacio Xavier Keller - Tumacácori National Historical Park (U.S. National Park Service)

 

[cactusjumper]

If, as you say, there is plenty on Roxas out there, perhaps you could help to fill in some of the missing information?

Exactly what illness was he suffering from? Where did he convalesce? Who took his place while he was "out of circulation?"

deducer,

Many of the priests in Mexico had illnesses, and some died from them. I don't recall any diagnoses, except for one occasion where a priest died from complication from a stroke. Pretty sure, no explanations for Rojas' many illnesses. Not that unusual for that time and place.

I think Father Rojas usually stayed at Arispe. A number of times (?) he was taken care of by Bartolome Saenz, SJ. in that mission, and he did assist him "occasionally".

While Father Rojas did not build the church (originally) he was responsible for remodeling and enlarging it by "a little less than half. "Apparently he is almost entirely responsible for the beauty and majesty of the structure as it stands today." In that respect, Wayne was correct.

My source here, is 'Paths of the Padres Through Sonora".

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[deducer]

deducer,

Many of the priests in Mexico had illnesses, and some died from them. I don't recall any diagnoses, except for one occasion where a priest died from complication from a stroke. Pretty sure, no explanations for Rojas' many illnesses. Not that unusual for that time and place.

I think Father Rojas usually stayed at Arispe. A number of times (?) he was taken care of by Bartolome Saenz, SJ. in that mission, and he did assist him "occasionally".

While Father Rojas did not build the church (originally) he was responsible for remodeling and enlarging it by "a little less than half. "Apparently he is almost entirely responsible for the beauty and majesty of the structure as it stands today." In that respect, Wayne was correct.

My source here, is 'Paths of the Padres Through Sonora".

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

And yet, there is so little information on Roxas, particularly in the last few years prior to the expulsion.

His last sojourn as VG from 1763-1764 took him to the Gila river, Salt River area, and of this particular time, very little information can be found in regard to where specifically he was and what specifically he was doing.

 

[somehiker]

Excerpt from Pg. 156..."Paths of the Padres Through Sonora"...



Regards:SH.

 

[cactusjumper]

This is something I wrote about Father Rojas back in Feb. 2003:

"Father Carlos Rojas was appointed visitor General in 1764. These "Soldiers of God" were appointed for three years, normally. This was the same term served by California's (Baja) Padre Visitador. Father Rojas's job was to visit the missions, including the most remote, and bring back reports of their hardships and accomplishments. He was sick during the first two years of his appointment. The Vistadores Generals did not make regular or frequent visits so his absence from the missions was not something of note. As I have said before, he did manage to make one trip in 1766. Considering his health problems, it is amazing that he survived the forced march during the expulsion since only half of the Black Robes working in Pimeria Alta lived through it. Many of those who did survive the march and subsequent period of house arrest ended up in Russia and Brazil."

That was in the days when I still believed in Jesuit treasure. I think the dates are important.

Good luck,

Joe