JESUIT TREASURES - ARE THEY REAL?

[UncleMatt]

It was just a hypothetical. I can't read or Speak Spanish, so it wouldn't be me.

As far as financing the trip, I bet we could simply do a kickstarter campaign. Who wouldn't buy into such a great adventure!

 

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[Oroblanco]

Don Jose' el Tropical Tramp posted,

Uncle Matt you asked -->Who would we send out of this group? Who is best qualified to read those old documents in Spanish?
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There are several, all excellent, but for all around effect I would suggest Oro, sides it would get him away from his fixation on sheep

No I wouldn't recommend Oro - I could not be trusted with the information that might turn up. Besides I have made several commitments, Loke would be angry if I skipped out for one example and I would not care to see him ticked off - I have seen that 40 he packs.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Oro. Err ah just what IS this thingie between you and el Bandido Loke? If it means money for him, I am sure he would cooperate. The main problem would be just whose project would command srcondary attention- aside from the feminine distraction ? Naturally mine would be primary..


Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[releventchair]

There go my two nominees. Going to be like belling the cat.

 

[Somero]

Aside from the mining controversy, would the missions have made some sort of income from tithing or providing candles and other such supplies. Just seems providing the equipment for mining would be more lucrative for the missions.

 

[deducer]

Aside from the mining controversy, would the missions have made some sort of income from tithing or providing candles and other such supplies. Just seems providing the equipment for mining would be more lucrative for the missions.

A very interesting question to pose. IIRC, missions did receive payment in metal from other mines in exchange for goods, animals, or materials. They also probably received metal as a form of tithe (gold dust for instance).

IMHO, as for coming up with the means with which to mine for themselves- I don't think it was cost-prohibitive, as it seems to have been mostly hard labor that got it done back then.

But I will allow others more knowledgeable about mining to remark on that, as I am extremely ignorant on matters relating to mining and intend to maintain that ignorance as it holds no appeal for me.

 

[Somero]

Just going with the old adage "The one selling the shovels made more than the miners" Also the idea that the Priest would possibly receive "payment/compensation" for performing particular priestly duties i.e. blessings.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Heck Somero, they even charged '''rent''' to have you buried in the church or it's grounds. coffee ??

Deducer, you posted -->I am extremely ignorant on matters relating to mining
____________________________________
r
I too, am basically lazy, so were most of the Jefes of the basic missions sort like the military? The ranking officer tells the others how to do the hard work without worry of it's consequences -------$$$$.

If you had found a nice fat vein of precious metals and had free involuntary labor ----$$$$$$$-


Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[sailaway]

I have to make a clarification. I stated that the Mina Purisma Concepcion is six miles north. In fact it is hard to measure a leage in it has to do with line of sight. it can be anywhere from 3.95 miles to 9 miles per league. It depends on your altitude. so I should have said it is between 6 miles and 18 miles north.

 

[Somero]

I have to make a clarification. I stated that the Mina Purisma Concepcion is six miles north. In fact it is hard to measure a leage in it has to do with line of sight. it can be anywhere from 3.95 miles to 9 miles per league. It depends on your altitude. so I should have said it is between 6 miles and 18 miles north.

Actually should be distance walked in an hour, approximately 3 miles depending on terrain.

 

[Oroblanco]

Don Jose de la Mancha wrote

Oro. Err ah just what IS this thingie between you and el Bandido Loke?

I will plead the Fifth. At least until we can discuss in person, or Loke should decide to fill you in details.

As to Jesuits selling supplies to miners, certainly; they owned a number of STORES as listed in the inventory of that study referred to earlier. However these would be most profitable in areas where the Spaniards were active and working their own mines, which areas do not coincide with the "wild" frontier areas of Jesuit missions in many cases. The Jesuits were very active in commerce of almost every kind. Where mineral deposits were found, they mined, <whether gold or silver or salt> where sugar plantations were, they raised sugar and operated sugar refineries. All to the greater glory etc. From what I have seen, the Jesuits were not encouraging Spaniards to colonize in their mission areas, rather quite the opposite.

Good luck and good hunting amigos, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco

 

[Springfield]

... As to Jesuits selling supplies to miners, certainly; they owned a number of STORES as listed in the inventory of that study referred to earlier. However these would be most profitable in areas where the Spaniards were active and working their own mines, which areas do not coincide with the "wild" frontier areas of Jesuit missions in many cases. The Jesuits were very active in commerce of almost every kind. Where mineral deposits were found, they mined, <whether gold or silver or salt> where sugar plantations were, they raised sugar and operated sugar refineries. All to the greater glory etc. From what I have seen, the Jesuits were not encouraging Spaniards to colonize in their mission areas, rather quite the opposite.

Good luck and good hunting amigos, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco

Oro, you may find the following documents of interest, particularly "Documents from 1740, page 222" - a letter from a Franciscan in Santa Fe to a Jesuit in New Orleans, in which a trade agreement is requested. The Santa Fe Franciscan is offering plentiful amounts of silver from a rich mine in Chihuahua in exchange for 'merchandise' from the Jesuit in New Orleans - all this a result of the Mallet expedition (French Canadians) to Santa Fe. Thanks to mdog for the link.

AJ-092: Mallet, Expedition to Santa Fe (1739-1740) :: American Journeys

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Hola El Oro, cafe??

you posted --> I will plead the Fifth. At least until we can discuss in person, or Loke should decide to fill you in details.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

No need, my friend, you have just filled in the details I will avoid the subject with your permission.

However this fixation on sheep ?

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Oroblanco]

Oro, you may find the following documents of interest, particularly "Documents from 1740, page 222" - a letter from a Franciscan in Santa Fe to a Jesuit in New Orleans, in which a trade agreement is requested. The Santa Fe Franciscan is offering plentiful amounts of silver from a rich mine in Chihuahua in exchange for 'merchandise' from the Jesuit in New Orleans - all this a result of the Mallet expedition (French Canadians) to Santa Fe. Thanks to mdog for the link.

AJ-092: Mallet, Expedition to Santa Fe (1739-1740) :: American Journeys

Yes I did catch that, thank you. Interesting too that the Mallet brothers saw and were told of other silver mines near Santa Fe, laying idle for lack of demand for the silver!


Don Jose de la wrote

Hola El Oro, cafe??

you posted --> I will plead the Fifth. At least until we can discuss in person, or Loke should decide to fill you in details.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

No need, my friend, you have just filled in the details I will avoid the subject with your permission.

However this fixation on sheep

?

Don Jose de La Mancha

Hmm I might ask you the same question?

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Amateur psychologist oro, your pass.


Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[sailaway]

Actually should be distance walked in an hour, approximately 3 miles depending on terrain.

It seems there is some confusion about a "Leagua". A Leagua is a nautical term for horizon viewed from a ship. when at deck level it is 3.94 nautical miles. (Notice Nautical Miles, it is different than land miles) When in a fifty foot crows nest on a mast it is 9 nautical miles. I live on a sailboat and have for many years. I have extensively sailed the whole of the East coast, the whole of the Gulf of Mexico, and the Caribbean. I use a Sextant and can plot my position on the earth. (Without the use of a G.P.S.) Unless one is Jesus Christ himself the term Leagua has nothing to do with walking. I have a radar and it has to be 23 feet off my deck to get the full performance of the horizon it sees, this for just a 16 mile radar. I see many power boats that use a 32 nautical mile radar but they do not get to see that far on the surface because their unit is not high enough. Yes they can see airplanes at 32 NM but what good is that? Their radars line of sight goes past the visiable horizon and sees above the water. I use mine to see land, and unless they are looking at High terrain they see nothing beyond the Radar's horizon. Oh by the way I did apply this to my calculations and the "Search area" starts at Windy Pass and goes all the way north to 10 miles straight east of the now town of Tonto Basin.

 

[deducer]

Deducer, you posted -->I am extremely ignorant on matters relating to mining

I too, am basically lazy, so were most of the Jefes of the basic missions sort like the military? The ranking officer tells the others how to do the hard work without worry of it's consequences -------$$$$.

If you had found a nice fat vein of precious metals and had free involuntary labor ----$$$$$$$-


Don Jose de La Mancha

The soldiers and their mindset is certainly food for thought. We know the Jesuits came here of their own accord, and in some cases even wanted to come here. But was the same true of the soldiers? I imagine that lot of them were conscripted from the lower ranks of the casta or were even criminals, and probably came here against their will. How much did that figure in how well they served the crown?

How many of them were Criollos?

 

[sailaway]

Now back to the subject of this thread. I was reading Father Kino's report to the Pope in 1710. In that document he states that in 1698 he personally shipped 4 to 5 million pesos of gold and silver to King Philip. The Pope had visited the missions that year and called the missions the richest in the whole of the Catholic Church. Now does this sound like a poor Mission? However I did find it strange that they could have a variance of 1 million in pesos. Let someone who is in charge of the bank not be sure of exactly how much they sent you and see if it does not raise red flags, no wonder King Philip went after them. If they shipped 4-5 Million Pesos to the Church that means the missions got that much and the Crown got that much. By Law that is how it was split up. So the mines at Tumacacori were very busy. They had 12 smelters, twelve ore crushers, and two slag pits. This all in reports.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

G'd morning saltaway, just in time for ORO's morning coffee: You said that the document mentioned that the Pope ? had visited the Missions----and called them the richest --.In actuality was the pope ever in the new world until much later

You realize that this is in complete variance with the official Jesuit position

More my friend, more, love it.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[sailaway]

Read the Spanish archives of King Philip V. This is where i found the information. Only reporting what i found.
This is the words of father Kino :
"Afterward I made other missions, or expeditions, to the north and farther to the west, and despatched friendly messages inviting all the heathen of these environs to receive our Holy Catholic faith for their eternal salvation, in imitation of these Pimas, their relatives and countrymen. "
Now it seems that the Jesuits were part of the missions of the Catholic Church.
Kino wrote this:
"Father Juan Maria de Salvatierra having entered in the year 1691 as visitor of these missions of Sinaloa and Sonora, his Reverence came in December from Chinipas to visit us; and, seeing in his Holy visit to these new missions such fertile, abundant, and pleasant lands, valleys and rivers, he expressed the opinion that they were the richest he had seen in all the missions"