JESUIT TREASURES - ARE THEY REAL?

[Old Dog]

 

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[Oroblanco]

Lamar wrote

Please try and grapple with a relatively simple concept

I could make the same request of you, but I doubt it would have any effect.

You are sure welcome to believe as you do, that there never were any Jesuit mines or treasures, but I still respectfully disagree and will not be silent. You are in fact calling all of the sources which have been posted liars by default, either in stating or repeating, so you also call me a liar as well. Amongst those sources you are calling liars are Jesuits Father Polzer, Nentvig, Keller and others which is a bit strange considering your stated high regards for the Society but I suppose it is necessary under the circumstances for you to take this position. I don't particularly care what you call anyone, but don't ask me to believe that the Jesuits never had any mines, and never had any treasures - I know better.

Thank you Joe for your photo of one of those missing pages, do you have any of the secular records? Those would be infinitely more interesting for someone like me.

Wishing you all a very Happy New Year,

Oroblanco

 

[cactusjumper]

Roy,

It could be that those kinds of records are one of the sources for my fictional story. If that were the case, they would have to remain sealed.

Take care,

Joe

 

[somehiker]

Gollum:

Source; a Letter from Nentvig to Zeballos (July 16, 1764)

http://southwest.library.arizona.edu/rudo/front.1_div.8.html

"I also request instructions from Your Reverence on how to proceed if in the future similar information which we have been forbidden to impart is requested. I do not wish to trample on statutes and precepts, even if they are interpreted in a less strict manner, nor do I care to undertake superfluously another's work."

This quote is from an exchange of information unrelated to mining ,but it does illustrate an apparent restriction regarding communications within the order.
What would be the "spin" on this....out of context?
Sounds fishy to me.

Don't get me wrong,though,for I really do not care whether or not the Jesuit Fathers themselves were in control of the mines.

Regards:SH

 

[cactusjumper]

Roy,

"You are in fact calling all of the sources which have been posted liars by default, either in stating or repeating, so you also call me a liar as well. Amongst those sources you are calling liars are Jesuits Father Polzer, Nentvig, Keller and others...."

I must respectfully disagree with you, my friend. The history of the Southwest, and the world, is replete with false stories that have been believed and repeated by highly respected "sources". A good friend of mine once told a story that I knew to be untrue. While I told him he was factually wrong, I did not call him a liar. Historically, he was mistaken, but believed he had the facts.

Lamar believes he has the facts. He believes the original sources for these stories were attacking the Catholic Church and the Jesuit Order.
The fact that others, later repeated these stories as historical fact does not make them liars, but they could be factually mistaken. We are aware that some Jesuits did indeed get involved in limited mining. I say limited, because when it was discovered, they were removed.

To change this history, you will need to lay your proof out before the world. Foolish as that may seem, until you do that, it all remains a nice little story, not unlike the story I have told.........Period.

Take care,

Joe

 

[mrs.oroblanco]

Somehiker,

for I really do not care whether or not the Jesuit Fathers themselves were in control of the mines

That is part of the issue, though, isn't it? The people who really cared are long-gone, and yet - the Jesuits still feel the need to continue the lies - THAT's the curiosity.

B

 

[cactusjumper]

Beth,

You are throwing a mighty wide loop there. Would you care to name the Jesuits who are continuing to lie? Keep in mind, folks, that to lie, you must know that what you are saying is false.

Thanks,

Joe

 

[pegleglooker]

Oro,
Remember, a blue collar person takes something, he is stealing.... and when it is done by a white collar person it is " misappropriation ".....
and the blue collar person WILL GO TO JAIL.... the white collar person will pay a fine... Welcome to American Justice. In the words of Redd Fox when he went in front of the judge for the first time and he said he saw " justice", only he said it was " just us "......

PLL

 

[lamar]

Lamar wrote

Please try and grapple with a relatively simple concept

I could make the same request of you, but I doubt it would have any effect.

You are sure welcome to believe as you do, that there never were any Jesuit mines or treasures, but I still respectfully disagree and will not be silent. You are in fact calling all of the sources which have been posted liars by default, either in stating or repeating, so you also call me a liar as well. Amongst those sources you are calling liars are Jesuits Father Polzer, Nentvig, Keller and others which is a bit strange considering your stated high regards for the Society but I suppose it is necessary under the circumstances for you to take this position. I don't particularly care what you call anyone, but don't ask me to believe that the Jesuits never had any mines, and never had any treasures - I know better.

Thank you Joe for your photo of one of those missing pages, do you have any of the secular records? Those would be infinitely more interesting for someone like me.

Wishing you all a very Happy New Year,

Oroblanco

Dear Oroblanco;
First and foremost I did not call you or anyone else a liar, therefore, please do not attempt to twist the truth into something else. I happen to have studied Fr. Poltzers' (AVM) research and while it is very accurate, it is also somehwat limited in scope and detail. I also understand quite clearly that Fr. Poltzer was an ordained Roman Catholic priest, therefore he had many other responsibilities and duties which limited the amounf of time which he could dedicate in pursuit of his historical interests. I, fortunately, suffer from no such debilitating tasks, therefore I was able to devote much more effort and to the task at hand than he.

Back to the point. It's simple. There exists NO proof that the Jesuits mined for gold and/or silver and NOWHERE on their respective mission or reduction lands under their control can one find evidence where they actively mined for said minerals. There does exist several instances of mine workings having been established on FORMER Jesuit territories AFTER their expulsion, but again, these instances are documented as such.

Also, Frs. Nentvig, Keller and others were only doing what they were SUPPOSED to do, which was to report any and all details of note for forwarding to the proper secular authorities in order that the nobility gain a more clear idea of the possible wealth New World held in store and how it could best have been exploited. Not ONLY did the Jesuits report these facts, so did the Franciscans, the Dominicans and all other missionaries. They all wrote the same types of reports and recorded their observations. They also reported on the fields of grass, the lumber in the forests, etc, yet no one is interested in THOSE facts, only the ones where the word GOLD or SILVER is mentioned.

The Spanish Crown had the original (and very noble) idea of turning the wilderness of the New World into an extension of Spanish life back on the Continent (the European continent). They envisioned the natives, being good and loyal subjects all, being overseen by lower ranking nobility, who were in turn governed by the middle ranking nobility, on up the ladder, just as it was in Spain.

The Jesuits, Franciscans and other Orders were sent to the New World with directives to help explore and tame the wilderness, and to convert the natives to Christianity, therefore taking the first steps in becoming subjects of the Crown of Spain (and also Portugal, to a lesser degree). Over time, the Crown began to alter their collective view towards the New World colonies and as such, they eventually succombed to allowing the colonies to be exploited by the rough hewn and ignoble colonists. And this is what happened and nobody can deny this fact.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[mrs.oroblanco]

If the lies were not continuing, then the history of Jesuit mining would be in everyone's history books, the internet and not hidden in out of the way places like in Mexico, a couple of Arizona spots and a few works by author's who came way before us.

Just by virtue of the fact that all these things are still held close to the vest, and the modern day Jesuits (well, the few I know, and the few who have made some writings) either say they know nothing - or - which is even more interesting - refuse to talk about the past.

When you can go to your local internet site and pull Jesuit history documents from an online digital library (and be complete), then the lies will have stopped.

Until then............................................


B

 

[lamar]

Gollum:

Source; a Letter from Nentvig to Zeballos (July 16, 1764)

http://southwest.library.arizona.edu/rudo/front.1_div.8.html

"I also request instructions from Your Reverence on how to proceed if in the future similar information which we have been forbidden to impart is requested. I do not wish to trample on statutes and precepts, even if they are interpreted in a less strict manner, nor do I care to undertake superfluously another's work."

This quote is from an exchange of information unrelated to mining ,but it does illustrate an apparent restriction regarding communications within the order.
What would be the "spin" on this....out of context?
Sounds fishy to me.

Don't get me wrong,though,for I really do not care whether or not the Jesuit Fathers themselves were in control of the mines.

Regards:SH

Dear somehiker;
Wow, that certainly seems to be very d@mning to me! I'd say, based upon that snippet, that the Jesuits were G-U-I-L-T-Y! However, I tend to look at things in the context by which they were intended to be viewed, therefore I have taken the liberty to copy & paste the ENTIRE applicible portion of the letter in question:
My Beloved Father Provincial Francisco Zeballos, [...] Pax Christy

I have just replied to a letter from His Excellency the Viceroy dated May 19th, in which he asks me for a map of this province. I had one left, identical to the one carried by the deceased Tienda de Cuervo but not so well finished. Because the Viceroy's request demanded urgency, I sent it as it was. My vision is poor, and without glasses to improve it, I would have blurred the chart had I tried to amend it.

I attempted to explain this to His Excellency, but not being familiar with court etiquette nor with the style used with such personages, I fear that unknowingly I may have committed some error and displeased him, and I may have made matters worse by refusing to furnish information about the latest incidents with our enemies although I did say that day by day, in spite of the precautions taken by the governor, the Seri and Apache Indians are gaining on us, the former having killed nine soldiers at Aigame. These are matters upon which His Excellency would be more thoroughly informed [than I].

I did not have anything worthwhile to call to His Excellency's attention although I had heard that the governor had issued orders to the captain and his soldiers at Fronteras to join in a foray against the Seris and Pimas at Cerro Prieto. But not knowing this with certainty, I did not mention it.

Being overburdened with work, I have had no time for soliciting data. Father Och, who, because of his hernia, left Bacerac on orders from the Father Visitor, is now here awaiting an easier assignment, and were it not for his presence I do not know how I could care for so many afflicted with smallpox, more than sixty in Oputo alone, and


[page xxiv]

just as many, whom Father Och is attending physically as well as spiritually, in Guásabas, eleven leagues away. Without his care most of them would have died.

My reply to the Viceroy was in the penmanship of Father Och which is very good. I mention this to Your Reverence in case the Viceroy is offended, in which case you might send someone to explain my awkwardness. I also request instructions from Your Reverence on how to proceed if in the future similar information which we have been forbidden to impart is requested. I do not wish to trample on statutes and precepts, even if they are interpreted in a less strict manner, nor do I care to undertake superfluously another's work.

I shall rejoice if Your Reverence is enjoying good health; thanks be to The Lord I am well. I continue praying to God, on whose Sacred Sacraments I commit myself, that you will be with us many years.

Oputo, July 16, 1764.

The humblest servant and vassal of Your Reverence,

Juan Nentvig

P.S. I failed to mention that in order to comply better with the wishes of the Viceroy, I cited the last chapter of the description of Sonora carried by Señor Tienda de Cuervo without letting him know that I had written it. I am sure he will agree with me that it would be expedient to subdue and punish the enemies of Sonora. If by chance the description were not in the hands of the Viceroy, Your Reverence could order that a copy be made from the one sent to you some time ago with Father Ignacio Lissassoayn [sic], at least such portions that in Your Reverence's judgment should be seen by the Viceroy, who seems well disposed and might decide with earnestness upon the needed war.

Source: Translated from Temporalidades section, vouchers 17–24, Archivo Historico de Hacienda, Mexico City.



What we may plainly read is that poor Fr. Nentvig was concerned that he was overstepping his boundaries by writing to the Excellency instead of Fr. Och, who was stricken ill at the time. Fr. Nentvig was concerned that he had perhaps offended the Viceroy in some manner and that the Viceroy would have taken offense at his untrained manners. Fr. Nentvig also professes to his lack of training in courtly mannerisms which was held in VERY high regards during that particular period and so Fr. Nentvig was asking that His Excellency smooth over any trouble spots which Fr. Nentvig may have unwittingly caused. There is nothing more to the letter than this, my friend. No hidden gold mine out in the back forty, no Montazuma's treasure stashed behind the altar, no 30 foot high statues of solid silver. Just a poor frightened priest attempting to apologize for any slight which may have been taken against him for his common writing style.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[Infosponge]

Good evening Cactusjumper,

You asked,

"Infosponge,

Is it your contention that Father Jose de Torres Perea was involved in mining, or simply removing records?

Thank you in advance,

Joe"

----------------------

I do not believe Padre Jose de Torres Perea was involved with mining, but rather a victim of it. His arrival at Guevavi was well after the planchas de plata discovery, and in his report he made references to an unhealthy climate at Guevavi, sterile women, and the milk of the women who did deliver dried up, which led to the death of their babies. The archeology reports that were done on Guevavi by Robinson & Burton, actually show evidence that Guevavi at one time might have been setup as a foundry. Therefore, the unhealthy climate that Padre Jose de Torres Perea mentions could very likely have been caused by heavy metal poisoning.

Furthermore, I do not believe Padre Jose de Torres Perea removed any records either. If there were any incriminating records that were either removed or destroyed, it more than likely would have been done right before the expulsion.

Sincerely,

Infosponge

 

[Oroblanco]

HOLA amigos,
Lamar I must apologize for my rather rude reply (last) it was posted in haste and my patience was short. I hold no hopes of ever bringing you over to my side of this debate, and rude responses surely won't help sway you. It is a bit exasperating that some refuse to admit the truth of Jesuit mining regardless of how much evidence is put forth, and this affected my wording of that post.

I do continue to hold out hope that you will one day question your strong belief that the Jesuits never had any mines nor treasures however, and if you should once start to question that belief, you may well be open to the possibility. After all, should you be mistaken in your so-oft stated belief, then it might be possible for you to actually locate one of the lost mines or treasures and recover it for the Society of Jesus to benefit. Besides, if it is true that the Jesuits were mining in Arizona, (and I am convinced this is the case) then they are due the honor of being the first discoverers and first miners of the territory, which is nothing to sneer at. By the way Lamar, if you should ever discover a copy of El Ocios Espanoles, I think you might find it interesting reading. With your access to Jesuit archives, you may well locate a copy.

Now for our dear readers, recall that post in which it was stated that the Jesuits' mines were taken away from them by the Spanish authorities, which resulted in the publication of a book loaded with curses upon those usurpers (mentioned earlier and above) here is a bit more detail on that rather obscure bit of history;

According to the Jesuit historians the PLANCHAS DE PLATA mine was discovered in 1739 by a Yaqui Indian who revealed its location to a Spanish trader. Its almost fabulous richness soon attracted the attention not only of Spain but of all Europe as well. Jesuit missionaries were the first to work the mine Says one of the old chroniclers "At a depth of a few yards in the bed of a canon cutting down the side of the mountain we found masses of pure silver globular in form weighing from one to two arrobas 25 to 50 Ibs. " Several pieces weighing 20 arrobas 500 Ibs were taken out and one piece found by a man from Guadalajara weighed 21 arrobas 525 Ibs. As no animal could carry so great a weight as a pack an ingenious contrivance was employed for its transportation. A litter was swung between two pack mules the mass of metal was raised into the branches of a tree the animals led underneath and the load lowered to the place designed for it. Much to the disgust of this persevering Jesuit the gigantic nugget was seized by the military commandant at Presidio de Altar and claimed for the Spanish Crown. The owner protested energetically but was overruled he appealed to the local Audiencia at Guadalajara and was referred to the Corte Real at Madrid. After seven years of litigation the Spanish King decided that the silver belonged to the royal exchequer and he further decreed that the mine henceforth be worked in the sole interest of the Crown Rather than comply with so outrageous a decree the mine was conveniently lost and it so remained in truth until 1817 when American interests discovered it and continued its development

<from Terry's Mexico: handbook for travellers, SONORA NEWS COMPANY Callé de las Estaciones 12 Mexico City Mexico T. Philip Terry, 1911 pp 75-76>

Now this "lost mine" is not lost today, which is another of the (short) list of Jesuit mines which are NOT lost. How anyone can continue to maintain that there is "no evidence" of Jesuits mining activities is puzzling, when we have Jesuit mines which are not only not lost but you can visit them.

http://www.nps.gov/tuma/historyculture/arizona-planchas-de-plata.htm

Note an extract from the web page, a passage translated from a letter,

"Toward the end of last October, between the Guevavi Mission and the ranchería called Arizona, some balls and slabs of silver were discovered, one of which weighed more than one hundred arrobas (2,500 pounds), a sample of which I am sending to you, Most Illustrious Lord."

Captain Juan Bautista de Anza to Bishop Benito Crespo, January 7, 1737.

Isn't that interesting, that BISHOP CRESPO was sent some of that raw silver? Oh I suppose our apologists will say it must have been a tiny shaving, a speck, etc. Hmm...now recall the story of the Salero silver mine, and a visit by a Bishop, named Crespo.

Lamar wrote

Back to the point. It's simple. There exists NO proof that the Jesuits mined for gold and/or silver and NOWHERE on their respective mission or reduction lands under their control can one find evidence where they actively mined for said minerals. There does exist several instances of mine workings having been established on FORMER Jesuit territories AFTER their expulsion, but again, these instances are documented as such.

Ah so you have again stated your view, which is at variance with the facts. Perhaps there isn't even hope that you will one day question your belief.

Cactusjumper wrote

To change this history, you will need to lay your proof out before the world. Foolish as that may seem, until you do that, it all remains a nice little story, not unlike the story I have told.........Period.

We disagree on this, root and leaf amigo, and I would turn your proposition around - for what we have been posting IS history, yet some have been working to change it and erase the records of Jesuits mines and treasures, and continue to work at it. Perhaps you already have some of the documents you are suggesting that I post for the public to view and are trying to "test" me into doing it, but it is un-necessary. This is not a criminal case but a civil court so to speak, our readers only need decide if it is more likely than not. And it is, completely unlike your story, unless you can provide some evidence that your story is factual at the root, which would be interesting indeed if it were.
Doesn't it strike you as odd, that SO many of the OLDER sources state the Jesuits were mining and with good results, that the Spanish authorities expended efforts trying to locate their hidden treasures, and that LATER we have Jesuits and historians claiming it was all falsehoods and lies, attacks on the Catholic church etc? Obviously it doesn't strike you as odd, but I don't have any false expectations of changing your opinion of this period of history either.

Good luck and good hunting amigos, I hope you all have a very Happy New Year!
Oroblanco

 

[somehiker]

Hi Beth:
"THAT's the curiosity."

Exactly.And that is what brings us round the loop to the beginning.That being the opportunity given to the Jesuits,considering that they were the de-facto government of Pimera Alta until shortly before the expulsion,to accumulate a significant amount of valuable trinkets.
If the missions,etc were indeed the centers of commerce early in the territorial history,it would be reasonable to believe that the padres were paid,by whoever it really was that operated the mines,for the supplies that the miners required(not to mention alms).What form such payment was made might be the subject of some debate but at some point any in excess of immediate need (profit) was likely to have been converted to bullion or cash.
Some would have been remitted to higher authorities but the balance....thats the subject of this thread.

Lamar:
Perhaps you should read my post again...
This is my comment...."This quote is from an exchange of information unrelated to mining ,but it does illustrate an apparent restriction regarding communications within the order"
I did provide a link to the entire excerpt of the letter,which you and all have been able to read by now.

"how to proceed if in the future information which we have been forbidden to impart is requested"
Just how does "his lack of training in courtly mannerisms" become "forbidden".

Regards:SH

 

[cactusjumper]

Roy,

At what point did the Jesuits stop mining?

Thanks in advance,

Joe

 

[cactusjumper]

SH,

["how to proceed if in the future information which we have been forbidden to impart is requested"
Just how does "his lack of training in courtly mannerisms" become "forbidden".]

I have to disagree with Lamar, an you, on this point.

"I have just replied to a letter from His Excellency the Viceroy dated May 19th, in which he asks me for a map of this province. I had one left, identical to the one carried by the deceased Tienda de Cuervo but not so well finished. Because the Viceroy's request demanded urgency, I sent it as it was. My vision is poor, and without glasses to improve it, I would have blurred the chart had I tried to amend it."

I believe the "forbidden" information was the map. Maps were a big secret for the Spanish Kings. No maps of the New World were allowed to be seen by.....others. Great care was taken to keep them from falling into the wrong hands.

He was asking "how do I proceed with future requests for maps?"

Hey! That's at least as good as any secret gold mines, and it's historically correct. Sources can be provided on request.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Oroblanco]

Cactusjumper wrote

At what point did the Jesuits stop mining?

Well obviously not after 1767, but if you refer to the Americas rather than Arizona they resumed by the early 1810's. <As in Argentina, Chile etc> I don't know the exact date when the Sonora/Arizona mines were stopped, but believe it was soon after the French expulsion 1764 after they got word of it, though it may have been sooner due to Apache attacks.

Cactusjumper also wrote

He was asking "how do I proceed with future requests for maps?"

Hey! That's at least as good as any secret gold mines, and it's historically correct. Sources can be provided on request

Isn't that your interpretation of that passage, when all I am getting is ...future requests for "information which we have been forbidden to impart", This same statement could be interpreted to mean mines or treasures, or some kind of misbehavior like gambling for instance, which was not to be made public. It very well could be referring to MAPS, however, but I don't see it as "good as any secret gold mines". A connoissieur of antique maps very likely would disagree with my view on that of course!

Oroblanco

 

[somehiker]

Hi Joe:
Actually I suspect that the reference to "forbidden" topics referred to this passage---

"Being overburdened with work, I have had no time for soliciting data. Father Och, who, because of his hernia, left Bacerac on orders from the Father Visitor, is now here awaiting an easier assignment, and were it not for his presence I do not know how I could care for so many afflicted with smallpox, more than sixty in Oputo alone, and just as many, whom Father Och is attending physically as well as spiritually, in Guásabas, eleven leagues away. Without his care most of them would have died."

I had come across some information during my travels that indicated a desire on the part of the Jesuits (and others in their chain of command),to downplay the toll that european born disease was inflicting on the native population.
Those conventions may have applied to other subjects as well IMHO.

Regards:SH

 

[cactusjumper]

Roy,

"By the way Lamar, if you should ever discover a copy of El Ocios Espanoles, I think you might find it interesting reading. With your access to Jesuit archives, you may well locate a copy."

Is it possible you mean: "Ocios de Espanoles Emigrados"?

I suggested the maps, because he mentioned a map just prior to the "questionable" statement. On the other hand, he didn't mention mines or mining.

Take care,

Joe

 

[lamar]

Dear cactusjumper;
You may very well be correct in your assessment, my friend. Fr. nentvig was obviously apologizing for some slight, whether real, or most probably, imagined. I've read countless documents, replete with longwinded apologies, begging forgiveness for any and all insults. In fact, all books at that time came complete with apologies for any and all inaccuracies, both in the prologues and addendums. It gets to the point where I say to myself "Sheesh! Stop apologizing already and make your point!" It was merely the style of the period and by the 17th century had pretty mush disappeared from general usage, although some of the more classical writers continued to place their respective apologies throughout their works at least until the latter half of the 18th century.
Your friend;
LAMAR