JESUIT TREASURES - ARE THEY REAL?

[cactusjumper]

SH,

"Would it be a reasonable conclusion that the Jesuits and Spanish miners had no respect for the desceased?
Or were they simply without superstition?"

I don't imagine the Jesuits were any more or any less superstitious than any other educated people of that era. The miners, on the other hand, were highly superstitious. Actually, I think most miners of any race are superstitious.

Every hill rock or cactus was sacred to the Apache. IMHO, once the white man wanted it, a higher level of sacredness was called for.......

Take care,

Joe

 

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[cactusjumper]

PLL,

"The Jesuits must have destroyed them all!!!!!! < snicker >"

That could very well be......lots of those critters around in 1878

Take care,

Joe

 

[pegleglooker]

PLL,

"The Jesuits must have destroyed them all!!!!!! < snicker >"

That could very well be......lots of those critters around in 1878

Take care,

Joe

oops.... I meant the " secret " Jesuit Police.... undercover

PLL

 

[Old Dog]

 

[ghostdog]

Hey Catusj, I find the name Dale Provenance a very unusual name, but hey what the hay, now down to business, the 6 foot empty cross,as you say may not be as empty as you think, after doing some specific research at a paticular library, regarding F. Kino , a very interesting and unusual character to say the least, it is" MY Belief",hear that SWR, that your Cross may indeed posessoss internal Documents. I am not trying to make this out like a Nazi thriller, however it is possible you overlooked some Cross issues. Secret openings to start, only a mind who could read a Astrolobe,and make Xlant maps,who Europe raved about, in that Era could concoct such a Ruse. Ok,Happy New Year to You and All on this Crazy Forum.Oh and the Wine Ain"t to bad either.
gd

 

[cactusjumper]

GD,

"Hey Catusj, I find the name Dale Provenance a very unusual name..."

I find it pretty unusual as well.

I assume you are referring to this post:

"All of this information can be confirmed by Dale Provence, who is living somewhere in California on a large gated estate."

Perhaps the wine is......too good.

Take care,

Joe

 

[ghostdog]

Cactusj old man, I tip my glass to you, Touche !

 

[somehiker]

Then again Pegleg,maybe them rascally Jesuits hid them incriminating records someplace like this.
Who knows?...Might be a map or two in the collection as well.
"Provenience" is a term that would apply.

Behind the brush with the rubble pile out front.
I guess they didn't have time to clean up.

Regards:SH

 

[Oroblanco]

Cactusjumper wrote

The obvious question is: If Gibson could find these "Spanish records" in 1878, why is it that only "traditions" can be found today?

Who says that only "traditions" can be found today? Been reading too much of Lamar's rather sweeping statements about "no evidence"? There are fairly obvious reasons why we don't have files full of Jesuit records in AZ - for one, take a look at the Mission 2000 database, you will see what still exists. Do you believe that what they hold today, is very much the whole of the records that existed in the 1700's? Do you suppose that no treasure hunter has gone before us, whom likely took whatever records they could locate? I found incidents from the late 1800's and early 1900's in which Franciscan padres were literally selling off the Jesuit documents they had from the missions - for $1 a page. It seems terrible but they were in need of money at the time, and folks were not so particular about preserving historical documents in that time.

The Mexican city of Canaea claims that they have a mining register which shows the Jesuits having the first mineral claims; it is a bit of a drive for myself, but perhaps someone you know lives closer? Several of the early sources which are saying that records of the Jesuit missions include their mining activities also state that the records are in SPAIN. Again, that is a bit of a drive for me, but perhaps you know someone? Even the small visita churches had written records - but recall how the Jesuit expulsion was executed; they were removed and it was some months before any Franciscans arrived to replace them. It is almost sheer luck that any records remain for us today.
I have pointed this out repeatedly - we do NOT have the whole body of the Jesuit records from any part of Spanish America today; and not only the mining records are missing, records of probate (wills) are also strangely missing. Considering the way the arrest took place in Arizona, one might suspect that the padres had time to conceal or otherwise dispose of the records they didn't wish for the world to see. From many sources we hear that there were records still existing in Arizona in the early period of American involvement, but by around the turn of the century it seems like most of those records have vanished. I would bet that at least several still exist in private ownership.

When researching any treasure legend, in general, the older sources tend to be more correct than later sources. In this case, we cannot expect to have masses of Jesuit testimonies telling all about their mining activities and where any treasures were hidden - but the earliest Anglo-American sources are virtually unanimous in stating that the Jesuits were responsible for a considerable amount of mining and mineral discoveries in Arizona, and in fact even in the time of the Jesuits, the Spanish authorities were convinced that there were considerable treasures hidden which they made energetic searches for, however un-successfully. We know that during the colonial period, large quantities of gold, silver, emeralds, copper etc were being shipped from the Americas to Spain, Portugal and to the Vatican - massive quanitities in fact. These tons of silver bars and gold ingots were coming from mines especially in the later colonial period. We know from the (sparse) reports of pirates and privateers, that the churches were often found to have tremendous treasures - in fact in several cities, special treasure rooms were built under the churches for safe storage of it.

Do you know of any documents which record the church treasures shipped out of the Americas? Are they listed on the ship's manifest from the Atocha, or the Maravilla or the Purisma, or any other Spanish treasure galleon? We have the admission of a Jesuit (Polzer, one whom was a strong deny-er of any Jesuit mines or treasures) that two priests were caught mining, and to be mining there must needs have been mines as well. There are a number of NOT lost Jesuit mines. Should we just dismiss the Indians verbal histories of having been forced to work in the Jesuit's mines as so much fiction to "increase the tourist trade"? We know from the Franciscans that they found the Pimas to have been practically un-educated in the Catholic faith much less the Spanish language, and that they were pleasantly surprised that the new padres were not going to use them like slaves, as they had been under the Jesuits. The Pimas alone, revolted repeatedly against the Jesuits - in 1695, 1734, 1751, and 1756 and killed several of the Jesuits in the process, besides poisoning a couple others. I know that all this is still NOT enough for some folks, whom insist in having the Jesuits come forward themselves with maps and documents admitting to everything, but instead we get wholesale denials from their defenders, always claiming there is "no proof" and "no evidence".

So after taking the very long way round, I must respectfully disagree with the statement of our amigo Cactusjumper, that "all we have are traditions" - we have far more than just stories amigos, sources including the Royal Geographic Society, the Arizona Bureau of Mines, and the US Bureau of Statistics - the Jesuits were mining! Silver mostly, but gold, lead, and copper as well - in other lands we could include emeralds and pearls; the output of those mines served to beautify the Jesuit churches all over the colonies, and the excess was shipped for the Vatican. When the crackdown came, the mines were hidden; some have since be rediscovered, but those stories of the hiding of stacks of silver bars ought not be dismissed out of hand!

Wishing you all a very Happy New Year, and that you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco

 

[Infosponge]

Greetings to everyone and Happy New Year to All,

Oro, you've hit the nail squarely on the head. Below is page 35 from Reverend Victor B. Stoner's 1937 Thesis, titled "THE SPANISH MISSIONS OF THE SANTA CRUZ VALLEY." One has to wonder if there was only recordings of births, deaths, or marriages, and nothing incriminating in this church register, then for what reason were so many pages torn out of it?

Sincerely,

Infosponge

 

[lamar]

Dear infosponge;
You pondered out loud;
Below is page 35 from Reverend Victor B. Stoner's 1937 Thesis, titled "THE SPANISH MISSIONS OF THE SANTA CRUZ VALLEY." One has to wonder if there was only recordings of births, deaths, or marriages, and nothing incriminating in this church register, then for what reason were so many pages torn out of it?

Why indeed, my friend, would so many supposedly innocent pages be torn from an archival record? Perhaps it is because during the time of the defacing of the archives, the Xerox color copier had not yet been invented and seeing as how no one wanted to copy down a page from a ledger word for word, they simply ripped the page(s) from the tome, thus having the original copy of a certain baptism/marriage/death/confirmation, etc?

You may stop being so suspicious, my overly suspicious friend, as this was quite a common occurrance in the days before certified true copies. The fact of the matter is that the entry(s) were most likely removed at a later date by a relative of the person in question, in order to prove blood relations in regards to an inheritance, or a title dispute, etc. I've seen this countless times in various archives, both clerical and secular and it proves nothing nor is it in the least bit suspect once the reason for the removal of the page(s) is known.

The Jesuits were among the most highly schooled intellectual types in the world during their day, and therefore I serious doubt that one would have entered something of a dubious nature in an official historical record.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[mrs.oroblanco]

Lamar,

Do you honestly believe that any "highly schooled educational types" are incapable of devious acts?

The fact of the matter is - a highly schooled educational type would probably be a BETTER thief or whatever, since they are educated and intelligent.

Can you say Bernie Madoff? Or any of those "highly schooled" folks that have been taken down in the last few years - not counting all the highly schooled executives that are STILL getting millions of dollars of our money in the form of bonuses - since they have been able to figure out a way to rob us blind without us having any recourse.

Do you also know that some of the worst criminals and mass murderers have been of above average intelligence. (that's not to say that I am accusing the Jesuits of mass murders, just that intelligence and schooling is not a prerequisite to non-criminal activity)

B

 

[Infosponge]

Dear Lamar,

I wouldn’t be so suspicious if it wasn’t for the fact that all the pages are missing for the years prior to 1741, and those pages cover the time of the Planchas de Plata discovery. The only other pages which are missing are those right before the expulsion, and nothing in between. Your quick and convenient explanation might be a bit more believable if pages were missing randomly throughout the entire book.

Your overly suspicious friend,

Infosponge

 

[lamar]

Dear infosponge;
I remember reviewing those two ledgers and in all reality it was only one ledger comprised of two separate parts. Also, if memory serves, the Franciscans sold a lot of the records from the Jesuits in order to restore several chapels around the late 1800s sometime. Some of the missing pages are surfaced and are currently either in private collections or are the property of museums. And there is nothing pretaining to the Planchas de Plata discovery in those archives, nor do any pretain to the expulsion of the Jesuits. The sole purpose of those ledgers were to record baptisms (births were not recorded unless stillborn or the baby died before baptism) marriages, deaths, confirmations, etc.

Those records are of an ecclestical nature and as such the information housed within them was not interspersed with information of a secular nature. That information would have been recorded in a separate archive, if they had in fact existed for that particular area.

If you notice something which is not quite right, first look for a simple and innocent explanation, then lacking that, THEN you get suspicious. if you do it the other way 'round then you'll find yourself chasing a lot of false leads and rainbows, my friend.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[Oroblanco]

HOLA amigos,
Just to round out our group of sources, we can add a couple of Governors of Arizona, Rand McNally Atlas and the Commissioner of Mining Statistics as well as the Secretary of the Treasury to the list of those who state the Jesuits were mining in Arizona. Think they were all lying?

About one hundred and fifty years later or in 1687 the Jesuit missionaries Fathers Kina and Salva tiero established the first mission within the region now known as Arizona. Thirty years later there were nine missions firmly established. It is known that the Jesuit fathers in charge of the missions gave some attention to mining and there are many places where remains of the Mexican style of furnace are found as well as piles of slag which bear witness of the enterprise and industry of these early metallurgists. About the year 1700 reports reached the City Mexico

<from Report of the Governor of Arizona to the Secretary of the Interior, Joseph H. Kibbey Governor, Government Printing Office, Washington,DC 1905>

It was gold that first attracted Europeans to the southwest and gold led the Jesuit fathers to this rich land during the seventeenth century. Surrounding the old missions workings were discovered that left no doubt as to who were the pioneer miners of Primeria Alta the name by which Arizona was then known. The first rush to the new land

<from Report of the Governor of Arizona to the Secretary of the Interior,Governor Col Alexander O Brodie Government Printing Office, Wash. DC, 1904>

MINERALS Arizona is rich in mineral wealth. Mining one of the oldest industries in the State successfully conducted by Jesuits as early as 1736.

<from New Handy Atlas By McNally and Co Rand, Rand McNally and Company, Chigaco and New York, 1892>

A large silver lead has been discovered in the hills back of the village of Tres Alamos while tradition has it the Cañón de Oro in the San Catarina contains a valuable mine formerly worked by the Jesuit fathers and by them abandoned on account of Indian depredations.

<Statistics of Mines and Mining in the States and Territories West of the LETTER from THE SECRETARY OF THE TREASURY by United States Dept of the Treasury, Rossiter Worthington Raymond, United States Commissioner of Mining Statistics, GEO S BOUTWELL Secretary of the Treasury 1871 >

There is still more amigos, so don't accept it when folks keep repeating that propaganda about the Jesuits never having mines or treasures and there is no evidence. The Jesuits are not going to announce to the world their involvement or the whereabouts of the output from those mines, and we can only surmise they intend to recover them at some point in the future. And I thought confession was supposed to be a good thing?
Wishing you all a very Happy New year,
Oroblanco

 

[cactusjumper]

Infosponge,

Is it your contention that Father Jose de Torres Perea was involved in mining, or simply removing records?

Thank you in advance,

Joe

 

[somehiker]

Lamar:

More revealing than the mission registries,and whatever pages may be missing from same,would be the personal papers and journals that individuals,such as Philipp Segesser ,Juan Nentwig(Netvig) or perhaps Fr. Kino's longtime friend Fr. Agustin Campos, who labored in the Pimeria Alta for more than thirty years,maintained.

A team of researchers is currently working on the translation of a collection of letters penned by Segesser and provided by his descendents.The task has proved somewhat difficult,though,partly because he tended to intermix indigenous, Spanish and German words......kinda makes one wonder if he did a little bit of mapmaking on the side.

Regards:SH

 

[lamar]

HOLA amigos,
Just to round out our group of sources, we can add a couple of Governors of Arizona, Rand McNally Atlas and the Commissioner of Mining Statistics as well as the Secretary of the Treasury to the list of those who state the Jesuits were mining in Arizona. Think they were all lying?

About one hundred and fifty years later or in 1687 the Jesuit missionaries Fathers Kina and Salva tiero established the first mission within the region now known as Arizona. Thirty years later there were nine missions firmly established. It is known that the Jesuit fathers in charge of the missions gave some attention to mining and there are many places where remains of the Mexican style of furnace are found as well as piles of slag which bear witness of the enterprise and industry of these early metallurgists. About the year 1700 reports reached the City Mexico

<from Report of the Governor of Arizona to the Secretary of the Interior, Joseph H. Kibbey Governor, Government Printing Office, Washington,DC 1905>

It was gold that first attracted Europeans to the southwest and gold led the Jesuit fathers to this rich land during the seventeenth century. Surrounding the old missions workings were discovered that left no doubt as to who were the pioneer miners of Primeria Alta the name by which Arizona was then known. The first rush to the new land

<from Report of the Governor of Arizona to the Secretary of the Interior,Governor Col Alexander O Brodie Government Printing Office, Wash. DC, 1904>

MINERALS Arizona is rich in mineral wealth. Mining one of the oldest industries in the State successfully conducted by Jesuits as early as 1736.

<from New Handy Atlas By McNally and Co Rand, Rand McNally and Company, Chigaco and New York, 1892>

A large silver lead has been discovered in the hills back of the village of Tres Alamos while tradition has it the Cañón de Oro in the San Catarina contains a valuable mine formerly worked by the Jesuit fathers and by them abandoned on account of Indian depredations.

<Statistics of Mines and Mining in the States and Territories West of the LETTER from THE SECRETARY OF THE TREASURY by United States Dept of the Treasury, Rossiter Worthington Raymond, United States Commissioner of Mining Statistics, GEO S BOUTWELL Secretary of the Treasury 1871 >

There is still more amigos, so don't accept it when folks keep repeating that propaganda about the Jesuits never having mines or treasures and there is no evidence. The Jesuits are not going to announce to the world their involvement or the whereabouts of the output from those mines, and we can only surmise they intend to recover them at some point in the future. And I thought confession was supposed to be a good thing?
Wishing you all a very Happy New year,
Oroblanco

Dear Oroblanco;
Nobody is accusing ANYONE of lying that I aware of, my friend. Please try and grapple with a relatively simple concept, which is this:
The governors, Rand McNally, the East India Trading Co., Buckingham Palace, the Masons, etc, NONE of those people were lying, per se.

What they WERE doing and still ARE doing is simply re-hashing the original accustations levied at the Jesuits by the secular Spanish colonists. Period. None of your irrefutable sources has so much as the tiniest morsel of hard evidence in their possesssions, nor did they ever have any evidence in their respective possessions. period. Au final.

This phenomenom is known as "putting a spin" on the truth, but a lie, no matter how often repeated NEVER becomes the truth. Period. It just is not so. For an example of this, I sat in on an historical astronomy class one time and the professor (who held a doctorate in medieval history, as it was) was explaining to the bright eyed and eager students how Galileo proposed that the Earth rotated around the Sun! Well, Mr. Galileo did no such thang! The person who first proposed a workint theory on the Earth's rotation around the Sun, using mathmatics to prove beyond a doubt that this was so was a Polish scholar named Copernicus and he had passed away before Galileo was even BORN!

I immediately stood and stated "No, that's incorrect, it was Copernicus who first proposed the working heliocentric model of the Earth rotating about the Sun!" The kindly prof then asked me to prove my statement, so the next day I returned with Copernicus' original published findings and compared them with Galileo's published findings. Galileo simply affirmed that Copernicus was indeed right and ol' Galileo did nothing more than that. In fact, Galileo published entire paragraphs virtually verbatum using Copernicus' published writings and Galileo even credited Copernicus as being the one who made the discovery!

In light of all of that, the professor stated that I was INDEED correct, HOWEVER the material which he supposed to use to teach the class with, dictated to him that it was GALILEO whom first proposed the heliocentric model even though in truth it was actually COPERNICUS!

And there you have a fine example of a lie, when retold often enough, at one point takes on the outer semblence of the truth, yet scratch the surface and the truth shines forth. I can state with authority that the same also happens with Roman Catholicism and the fact that non-Catholics (and also many Catholics too) believe that we worship statues, and that we steal babies, or that we MUST do that or must NOT do that, on and on, ad nausum. The lies are tld and re-told, over and over without anyone bothering to check on the source of the lie, until enough people believe it and it becomes a commonly held misbelief. That's all.

The sources which you've quoted cannot be held responible for intentionally lying, they merely did not check the reference material and they instead relied heavily upon the (mis)information at their disposal, not knowing that they were in fact repeating a lie.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[cactusjumper]

For those who are more learned on these matters than I, do you believe the missing pages might look something like this:

If so, how many more would you be interested in seeing......within reason.

Take care,

Joe

 

[cactusjumper]

Dear Lamar,

You are exactly correct. You can change history one word at a time, until you have changed it completely. You can then repeat it for one hundred years until it is accepted as history, but it
will never be the truth.

Nice post, because what you have said is exactly how it has been done.

Take care,

Joe