JESUIT TREASURES - ARE THEY REAL?

Here are some real Shrunken Heads from Frank Phillips collection in Woolaroc Museum.
Shrunken heads Woolaroc.jpg
 

downsized.png

That one at the lower left....oh no....they got Roy !
 

Jesuit Treasures.. Are they real? I think that is the topic please keep it on that.
 

Tnmountains said:
Jesuit Treasures.. Are they real? I think that is the topic please keep it on that.
Click to expand...

Hello Roy
What are the chances that the Spanish, or Peralta found some, if not all of the Jesuit treasure," Ref. Sim's book said, Jacob called the Peralta Grant, the old Church Grant"? I believe the Church artifact's would be stashed away from the main Treasure horde. What, or how do you think that worked out Roy? All the research you've done, you must have asked yourself what's left?
Take care and be safe.
FEMF
 

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I am still of the opinion that the coadjutors are a big part of this puzzle. If they were not rounded up with the Jesuits, but had first hand knowledge of all the dealings of those priests, one can easily imagine what might have gone down. As soon as the dust cleared, they scooped up all they knew about, and either kept it for personal wealth, or figured out ways to return it to the Jesuit order. They might also have simply documented the location of the goods, and passed that up the chain of command. And we as interested parties would have no knowledge of such things, and few if any documents or references to tell us one way or the other. This would explain why few treasures have been found, though the amount of wealth thought to be missing is large. Perhaps the Jesuits did leave behind hidden treasure, but it didn't remain hidden for long.
 

The Jesuits were and are the masters of secrets it seems and definitely not stupid or careless……I would guess once they got their paws on something, they kept is and even if most were rounded up, they would have some unknown to watch over treasures….
Just a guess on my part but human nature is constant and they were a smart group who operated carefully.
 

UncleMatt said:
I am still of the opinion that the coadjutors are a big part of this puzzle. If they were not rounded up with the Jesuits, but had first hand knowledge of all the dealings of those priests, one can easily imagine what might have gone down. As soon as the dust cleared, they scooped up all they knew about, and either kept it for personal wealth, or figured out ways to return it to the Jesuit order. They might also have simply documented the location of the goods, and passed that up the chain of command. And we as interested parties would have no knowledge of such things, and few if any documents or references to tell us one way or the other. This would explain why few treasures have been found, though the amount of wealth thought to be missing is large. Perhaps the Jesuits did leave behind hidden treasure, but it didn't remain hidden for long.
Click to expand...

Not sure specifically what event you are referring to when you say "rounded up with the Jesuits."

If you meant the 1767 expulsion from the New World, all coadjutors were rounded up along with other laymen and brothers and sent back overseas, per order of King Charles III:

I have ordered that the Jesuits be expelled from all my dominions of Spain, the Indies, and Philippine Islands, and other adjacent regions, priests as well as coadjutors or lay-brothers, who may have made the first profession, and the novices, who may wish to follow them;
Click to expand...
 

FEMF said:
Hello Roy
What are the chances that the Spanish, or Peralta found some, if not all of the Jesuit treasure," Ref. Sim's book said, Jacob called the Peralta Grant, the old Church Grant"? I believe the Church artifact's would be stashed away from the main Treasure horde. What, or how do you think that worked out Roy? All the research you've done, you must have asked yourself what's left?
Take care and be safe.
FEMF
Click to expand...

Wow buddy, you know how to toss out some tough questions!

My answer is pure speculation, more in a moment- there is reason to think that one Mexican expedition into Arizona did find at least one of the old mines, and managed to extract some silver before retreating back to Mexico due to the Apaches, but no mention of finding any treasure(s) by this party. I don't think the Peraltas found any Jesuit treasure(s), but the gold mine may have been; it is hard to say at this point in time.

I agree that the church ornaments, are likely not in the same cave with bars of bullion, but it is possible they are in the same cave. The Molina document seems to suggest that something was concealed in more than one place, perhaps just ore in the Purisma Concepcion mine for instance, which was ready to be hauled to their smelter when everything came to a halt. The more famous Lady of Guadeloupe treasure cache may be where the church ornaments were concealed, but for reasons I can not prove I suspect the ornaments are not with that rather huge stash (just imagine the damage that would occur by the blasting down of rock on top of beautiful cups, crosses etc) and are probably not more than twelve miles from the old Jesuit mission.

As to what is left to find - I am sure that our skeptics will get a good laugh out of it, but I am fairly convinced that there are literally tons of silver, probably in crude bars, and possibly hundreds of pounds of gold but certainly an impressive amount of gold, some of which was probably not smelted but left in the form of dust as we see listed in the impressive treasure found in Brazil (quite a bit of the gold was still in the form of dust). Beyond these amounts, I believe there are probably several other stashes of silver and gold, much smaller in size, and not far from where smelting activities were done; these would be the amounts of precious metals that were "on hand" when the expulsion order happened, so may represent only a few weeks or months work accumulation. Since I am out on this limb, I will add that in my opinion, we are foolish to ignore the Franciscans part in this; there is reason to believe that the Franciscans were actively mining and smelting at both Tumacacori and San Xavier del Bac, remember that impressive silver altar seen in San Xavier which is nowhere to be seen today - and the Franciscans were likewise expelled by the Mexicans, not in a "roundup" type of operation but simply ordered to leave and allowed rather a long time to get out so they had plenty of time to stash away the "Church treasure" for safekeeping until it could be recovered.

I do not think that more than a small fraction of what was concealed, has ever been found. And I would apply that same logic to most all of Spanish America, where ever the Jesuits were operating (they managed to amass wealth without mines in many places) for very little of their known wealth was found by the Spanish authorities.

Now if anyone wishes to argue what I just said, I will point out that it is all speculation on my part, and is why I personally still go looking for the mines and treasures. As to why have the Jesuits not returned to recover their wealth, I believe that they do not know where it is hidden today, and it is possible that at least some has been recovered by a Jesuit, if that old newspaper article is to be credited. The amount of gold and silver that could be packed on a few mules however does not account for the amounts that must have been produced by the mines during the time period when the Jesuits, and later Franciscans, were holding sway over the area.

This has been covered before, but I believe that the Jesuits lost the locations of these treasures (and mines) in the 41 years time period when they were officially suppressed. Many of the old padres that knew the locations had passed away, and documents had been lost or pilfered. I think that local Indians did know the treasure locations at one time, for we have the account of the returning Jesuits coming to San Xavier and the Indians trotted out all the impressive gold and silver ornaments, but the Civil War caused the padres to leave again, and somehow the hiding place has been lost to the Indians as well.

Good luck and good hunting Frank - I hope you find the treasures that you seek (even if they are only of the historical type, history is a treasure too!).
Roy ~ Oroblanco

:coffee2: :coffee2: :coffee: :coffee2:
 

Oroblanco said:
Wow buddy, you know how to toss out some tough questions!

My answer is pure speculation, more in a moment- there is reason to think that one Mexican expedition into Arizona did find at least one of the old mines, and managed to extract some silver before retreating back to Mexico due to the Apaches, but no mention of finding any treasure(s) by this party. I don't think the Peraltas found any Jesuit treasure(s), but the gold mine may have been; it is hard to say at this point in time.

I agree that the church ornaments, are likely not in the same cave with bars of bullion, but it is possible they are in the same cave. The Molina document seems to suggest that something was concealed in more than one place, perhaps just ore in the Purisma Concepcion mine for instance, which was ready to be hauled to their smelter when everything came to a halt. The more famous Lady of Guadeloupe treasure cache may be where the church ornaments were concealed, but for reasons I can not prove I suspect the ornaments are not with that rather huge stash (just imagine the damage that would occur by the blasting down of rock on top of beautiful cups, crosses etc) and are probably not more than twelve miles from the old Jesuit mission.

As to what is left to find - I am sure that our skeptics will get a good laugh out of it, but I am fairly convinced that there are literally tons of silver, probably in crude bars, and possibly hundreds of pounds of gold but certainly an impressive amount of gold, some of which was probably not smelted but left in the form of dust as we see listed in the impressive treasure found in Brazil (quite a bit of the gold was still in the form of dust). Beyond these amounts, I believe there are probably several other stashes of silver and gold, much smaller in size, and not far from where smelting activities were done; these would be the amounts of precious metals that were "on hand" when the expulsion order happened, so may represent only a few weeks or months work accumulation. Since I am out on this limb, I will add that in my opinion, we are foolish to ignore the Franciscans part in this; there is reason to believe that the Franciscans were actively mining and smelting at both Tumacacori and San Xavier del Bac, remember that impressive silver altar seen in San Xavier which is nowhere to be seen today - and the Franciscans were likewise expelled by the Mexicans, not in a "roundup" type of operation but simply ordered to leave and allowed rather a long time to get out so they had plenty of time to stash away the "Church treasure" for safekeeping until it could be recovered.

I do not think that more than a small fraction of what was concealed, has ever been found. And I would apply that same logic to most all of Spanish America, where ever the Jesuits were operating (they managed to amass wealth without mines in many places) for very little of their known wealth was found by the Spanish authorities.

Now if anyone wishes to argue what I just said, I will point out that it is all speculation on my part, and is why I personally still go looking for the mines and treasures. As to why have the Jesuits not returned to recover their wealth, I believe that they do not know where it is hidden today, and it is possible that at least some has been recovered by a Jesuit, if that old newspaper article is to be credited. The amount of gold and silver that could be packed on a few mules however does not account for the amounts that must have been produced by the mines during the time period when the Jesuits, and later Franciscans, were holding sway over the area.

This has been covered before, but I believe that the Jesuits lost the locations of these treasures (and mines) in the 41 years time period when they were officially suppressed. Many of the old padres that knew the locations had passed away, and documents had been lost or pilfered. I think that local Indians did know the treasure locations at one time, for we have the account of the returning Jesuits coming to San Xavier and the Indians trotted out all the impressive gold and silver ornaments, but the Civil War caused the padres to leave again, and somehow the hiding place has been lost to the Indians as well.

Good luck and good hunting Frank - I hope you find the treasures that you seek (even if they are only of the historical type, history is a treasure too!).
Roy ~ Oroblanco


Hello Roy
Thanks, I'd say, and it's just me, but I believe you have a historical understanding of this historical mystery. Great answer Roy, I'll tell you what I'd add when I see you in Oct.
Thanks again, Take care and be safe Roy.
FEMF
Click to expand...
 

Oroblanco said:
This has been covered before, but I believe that the Jesuits lost the locations of these treasures (and mines) in the 41 years time period when they were officially suppressed. Many of the old padres that knew the locations had passed away, and documents had been lost or pilfered. I think that local Indians did know the treasure locations at one time, for we have the account of the returning Jesuits coming to San Xavier and the Indians trotted out all the impressive gold and silver ornaments, but the Civil War caused the padres to leave again, and somehow the hiding place has been lost to the Indians as well.
Click to expand...

I am in agreement with this, in that the Jesuits greatly underestimated the severity of the 1767 expulsion, and did not anticipate the total suppression of their order in 1773. The Jesuits probably expected that when the Spanish expelled them, that they would follow in the footsteps of those who previously had been expelled from New France and other countries, namely, a simple deportation back to Europe. That, of course, was not what happened.

Which is why it is logical, that unlike the other territories worked by the Jesuit order, much if not nearly all of their wealth in the Pimeria Alta was not recovered by them, themselves, but by unwanted parties, plunderers, miners, and treasure hunters, etc. How much of it still remains hidden is anyone's best guess.
 

Oroblanco said:
Wow buddy, you know how to toss out some tough questions!

My answer is pure speculation, more in a moment- there is reason to think that one Mexican expedition into Arizona did find at least one of the old mines, and managed to extract some silver before retreating back to Mexico due to the Apaches, but no mention of finding any treasure(s) by this party. I don't think the Peraltas found any Jesuit treasure(s), but the gold mine may have been; it is hard to say at this point in time.

I agree that the church ornaments, are likely not in the same cave with bars of bullion, but it is possible they are in the same cave. The Molina document seems to suggest that something was concealed in more than one place, perhaps just ore in the Purisma Concepcion mine for instance, which was ready to be hauled to their smelter when everything came to a halt. The more famous Lady of Guadeloupe treasure cache may be where the church ornaments were concealed, but for reasons I can not prove I suspect the ornaments are not with that rather huge stash (just imagine the damage that would occur by the blasting down of rock on top of beautiful cups, crosses etc) and are probably not more than twelve miles from the old Jesuit mission.

As to what is left to find - I am sure that our skeptics will get a good laugh out of it, but I am fairly convinced that there are literally tons of silver, probably in crude bars, and possibly hundreds of pounds of gold but certainly an impressive amount of gold, some of which was probably not smelted but left in the form of dust as we see listed in the impressive treasure found in Brazil (quite a bit of the gold was still in the form of dust). Beyond these amounts, I believe there are probably several other stashes of silver and gold, much smaller in size, and not far from where smelting activities were done; these would be the amounts of precious metals that were "on hand" when the expulsion order happened, so may represent only a few weeks or months work accumulation. Since I am out on this limb, I will add that in my opinion, we are foolish to ignore the Franciscans part in this; there is reason to believe that the Franciscans were actively mining and smelting at both Tumacacori and San Xavier del Bac, remember that impressive silver altar seen in San Xavier which is nowhere to be seen today - and the Franciscans were likewise expelled by the Mexicans, not in a "roundup" type of operation but simply ordered to leave and allowed rather a long time to get out so they had plenty of time to stash away the "Church treasure" for safekeeping until it could be recovered.

I do not think that more than a small fraction of what was concealed, has ever been found. And I would apply that same logic to most all of Spanish America, where ever the Jesuits were operating (they managed to amass wealth without mines in many places) for very little of their known wealth was found by the Spanish authorities.

Now if anyone wishes to argue what I just said, I will point out that it is all speculation on my part, and is why I personally still go looking for the mines and treasures. As to why have the Jesuits not returned to recover their wealth, I believe that they do not know where it is hidden today, and it is possible that at least some has been recovered by a Jesuit, if that old newspaper article is to be credited. The amount of gold and silver that could be packed on a few mules however does not account for the amounts that must have been produced by the mines during the time period when the Jesuits, and later Franciscans, were holding sway over the area.

This has been covered before, but I believe that the Jesuits lost the locations of these treasures (and mines) in the 41 years time period when they were officially suppressed. Many of the old padres that knew the locations had passed away, and documents had been lost or pilfered. I think that local Indians did know the treasure locations at one time, for we have the account of the returning Jesuits coming to San Xavier and the Indians trotted out all the impressive gold and silver ornaments, but the Civil War caused the padres to leave again, and somehow the hiding place has been lost to the Indians as well.

Good luck and good hunting Frank - I hope you find the treasures that you seek (even if they are only of the historical type, history is a treasure too!).
Roy ~ Oroblanco

:coffee2: :coffee2: :coffee: :coffee2:
Click to expand...

Hello Roy
If a man, or woman proved what you have just described, he or she would be rich beyond their wildest dreams without ever touching any of this antiquity, and to touch it, would just be unbridled Greed in any true Americans book!
FEMF
 

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Ladies & gentlemen + oro. no one drinking coffee any more??

I would like to point out that a Jesuit was up at Tayopa in the late 1800's

He was always looking, looking and digging here and there. it finally came to an end when he Fell off of the hill Cero de La Cura - Hill of the priest - I never established as to whether he ever officiated in a mass or if so, where, but the mere fact that a Jesuit was running around the Tayopa zone in the late 1800,s means that they never recovered Tayopa, or what they were looking for.

When i first entered the zone there were still Indians alive, old enough to remember if he was successful.

It would have involved too many pack mules or other activities.

I Might also add about my contact with two young Jesuits who were looking for a lost Gold Mine in a large zone of Limonite. They were unsuccessful, and semi-commissioned me to continue to look for it when they left, which I didn't, and to report to Rome. I long ago lost the address but it was not to the Vatican.

Together I am convinced that The Jesuits left many things that they never recovered.

Down the arroyo de Barbaroccos is a mission 'not very far from Tayopa, that has an underground chamber with mined Gold ore , very rich Speciams, that the Indians are guarding.

An acquittance told me that his father had become good friends with the Indians while he was prospecting in the area. When he ran out of provisions and was ready to leave, the chief of the Indians asked him why he was leaving, he told him and the chief said that he would help him and took him to the ruins of the mission and removed a flagstone opening steps going down, below were many sacks of extremely rich 'gold ore which he allowed my friends father to remove, He told him that this was a one time deal only..

Incidentally, at the Mission, down in the arroyo, is a flat cliff face, on which are many engravings, I have always wanted to
see and photograph then before they disappear.

So yes, I believe that there are many undiscovered Jesuit Treasures to be found Wouldn't you?

Don Jose de La Mancha.


Cerro del Cura.jpg
 

[FONT=&quot]The Jesuit like all other orders of Priests and Monks will have a “Mother House” in Rome that is always within walking distance to St Peters square. That is likely where they wanted communication sent.[/FONT]
 

I appreciate the response. So they were included in the language of the Royal decree? Are there any surviving records that list the coadjutors that were rounded up?


deducer said:
Not sure specifically what event you are referring to when you say "rounded up with the Jesuits."

If you meant the 1767 expulsion from the New World, all coadjutors were rounded up along with other laymen and brothers and sent back overseas, per order of King Charles III:
Click to expand...
 

Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp said:
The Jesuit like all other orders of Priests and Monks will have a “Mother House” in Rome that is always within walking distance to St Peters square. That is likely where they wanted communication sent.
Click to expand...

Don Jose

You mean at
Casa Generalizia Dei Salvatoriani - Associazioni ed Enti Religiosi a Roma
 

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