JESUIT TREASURES - ARE THEY REAL?

[Springfield]

... very little money or bullin was found. Where is it? There is no solid proof that it got spent, or shipped out, which the Spanish authorities knew and gave them reason to hunt for treasures. I have to say the odds are, the biggest part of their amassed wealth (in money and bullion, ornaments, jewels etc) remains hidden, still in the southwest, and that the Jesuits have indeed lost track of exactly where, thanks to unfortunate deaths during the expulsion, the sudden way the suppression occurred, and the rather long time span before the Order was brought back from the dead...

Oroblanco

After 2,000 posts on the subject, we are essentially back at the beginning, "Are they real?" I wonder if another 2,000 posts will 'increase our odds' that the fabulous hoards of popular lore exist? Well, yes, they indeed might - we have to include that possibility in a logical analysis if we're honest - but, based on the circumstantial evidence provided thus far, and its use with the arguments presented, we're left with only opinions. Treasure hunters want treasures to exist whether they do or not. It's the way we are.

My current 'odds', always subject to change: 1) Modest mining by the Jesuits in Santa Cruz basin of Arizona, leaving modest caches of church vestments and mission-supporting trade silver - 90%. 2) Bonanza deposits secretly exploited and hidden, and tons of precious metal caches extant (ala popular lore) - 10%.

 

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[markmar]

Because the mercury vapor still amalgamating my brain , I have two questions :

If the mercury was sold only from the King for mining , what was the reason which could the Padres to come in possession ?

If the Padres have bought the mercury from the Spanish miners , this did not uncovered theirs activities in mining , or could exist a Jesuit - Spanish cooperation in mining ?

I believe how the Jesuit treasures are real . Are out there and are still hidden .

 

[deducer]

After 2,000 posts on the subject, we are essentially back at the beginning, "Are they real?" I wonder if another 2,000 posts will 'increase our odds' that the fabulous hoards of popular lore exist? Well, yes, they indeed might - we have to include that possibility in a logical analysis if we're honest - but, based on the circumstantial evidence provided thus far, and its use with the arguments presented, we're left with only opinions. Treasure hunters want treasures to exist whether they do or not. It's the way we are.

I think we've established beyond a doubt that the Jesuits amassed a great amount of wealth, in general.

We have seen that the interior of quite a few Jesuit missions or churches are opulent, which was consistent with Loyola's vision that a church should inspire awe and wonder through being well-adorned.

So it follows that the Jesuits would procure "treasures" to facilitate this vision, hence answering the question asked in this thread.

My current 'odds', always subject to change: 1) Modest mining by the Jesuits in Santa Cruz basin of Arizona, leaving modest caches of church vestments and mission-supporting trade silver - 90%. 2) Bonanza deposits secretly exploited and hidden, and tons of precious metal caches extant (ala popular lore) - 10%.

I agree that whatever remains after 247 years is most likely to be what you are positing above, as far as modest caches.

Although there seems to be something on the horizon that suggests that the latter may not be false after all.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Gonna have to wash yer mouth out with soap Joe sheesh "I have seen it many, many times with the elderly"

Jose

 

[Springfield]

Springfield: "My current 'odds', always subject to change: 1) Modest mining by the Jesuits in Santa Cruz basin of Arizona, leaving modest caches of church vestments and mission-supporting trade silver - 90%. 2) Bonanza deposits secretly exploited and hidden, and tons of precious metal caches extant (ala popular lore) - 10%."



deducer: "I agree that whatever remains after 247 years is most likely to be what you are positing above, as far as modest caches.

Although there seems to be something on the horizon that suggests that the latter may not be false after all."


That's very interesting, but keep in mind that these 'horizon' revelations have had numerous 'false starts' in numerous locations over the years. I don't know what you're hot on, but I would suggest you not be too anxious about results. None of the large caches are lost, but under the control of their rightful owners, whomever that might be. Treasure caches make strange bedfellows. Of course, I could be wrong.

 

[markmar]

Now about the Jesuit - Spanish cooperation .

Have used the Jesuits , " friendly to them " Spanish miners to watch their caches with reward the gold mines ?

Why needed the Peraltas 400 men to carry a massive cache before become Arizona US state ?

 

[somehiker]

Roy, Mike and deducer:

Och wouldn't have been the first padre, or the last to claim the bottle in his possession was for "medicinal purposes only !".
Although I doubt there was ever any shortage of rat poop, mercury was by regulation and scarcity more difficult to obtain .
With epidemics of European diseases both introduced and exacerbated by such ignorance on the part of these disciples, circumstances may have
allowed the Jesuits to monopolize the entire supply of mercury in the region. I've read that greater fortunes were made by those merchants who
supplied the miners, than by the miners themselves, so it seems pointless to endlessly argue as to the extent of Jesuit mining. With control of
everything necessary to immigrant miners, even to much of the land and it's resources itself, it's more likely IMO they accumulated a much greater proportion of their wealth as suppliers and advisors, not miners. All of this could be described as donations of course, to the Church rather than to the Fathers themselves. As it was with the pious fund.

Regards:SH.

 

[somehiker]

Powers come and go Springfield. For example the Nazi's, who coveted, sought and accumulated treasure expected a thousand years of dominance.
But it didn't work out that way, which is why even today these looted treasures still surface from time to time. These 1280 paintings being one such case....How 1,280 Artworks Stolen by the Nazis were Hidden in a Munich Apartment Until 2012 | Vanity Fair....

A fascinating story, well worth reading all five pages. Not just for the history, but also for the insight into how the government and lawyers maneuver in such a case.

In a way perhaps, Cornelius Gurlitt was for some time in control of this treasure, but certainly was not the rightful owner.
Nor were the Nazis.

Regards:SH.

 

[Oroblanco]

Somehiker wrote

Roy, Mike and deducer:

Och wouldn't have been the first padre, or the last to claim the bottle in his possession was for "medicinal purposes only !".
Although I doubt there was ever any shortage of rat poop, mercury was by regulation and scarcity more difficult to obtain .
With epidemics of European diseases both introduced and exacerbated by such ignorance on the part of these disciples, circumstances may have
allowed the Jesuits to monopolize the entire supply of mercury in the region. I've read that greater fortunes were made by those merchants who
supplied the miners, than by the miners themselves, so it seems pointless to endlessly argue as to the extent of Jesuit mining. With control of
everything necessary to immigrant miners, even to much of the land and it's resources itself, it's more likely IMO they accumulated a much greater proportion of their wealth as suppliers and advisors, not miners. All of this could be described as donations of course, to the Church rather than to the Fathers themselves. As it was with the pious fund.

Regards:SH.

I have heard this argument before, and while it is certainly true enough that many merchants have made fortunes by 'mining the miners' rather than mining themselves, there are enough cases of miners who became wealthy too.

Also, while this idea of the Jesuit missionaries acting as "stores" where itinerant Spanish miners were spending their booty purchasing needed supplies, I have yet to see anything to support this. In fact what I have seen is quite in opposition to this idea; for example the complaints by father Segesser about the "visitors" whom would show up at his mission, expecting to be fed and supplied, even taking mission livestock, without ever offering to pay for it! Was Segesser's situation unique, or an indication of what was much more widespread?

In support of the idea that the Spanish miners were NOT a big source of income for the missions, we can point to the real reticence of the missionaries to Spanish colonists even entering their respective areas. Why also, did the Jesuits NOT instruct their Indians in the Spanish language, which was expected of them by the Spanish authorities? What evidence is there of any large commerce/trading being carried on at the missions, between the missionaries and Spaniards? Do we have Spanish records of buying picks, drills, shovels at missions? To this we can add the complaints of missionaries about their mission Indians running away to the Spanish to work in their mines.

The reason that I see for arguing the extent of Jesuit mining, is in relation to the skepticism; some are inclined to dismiss the mining activities as "modest" in scope, or even negligible. The reports of the early Americans to visit the old mines describe 'extensive' work done, not modest, and the amount of slag implies a respectable amount of smelting.

Springfield wrote

After 2,000 posts on the subject, we are essentially back at the beginning, "Are they real?" I wonder if another 2,000 posts will 'increase our odds' that the fabulous hoards of popular lore exist? Well, yes, they indeed might - we have to include that possibility in a logical analysis if we're honest - but, based on the circumstantial evidence provided thus far, and its use with the arguments presented, we're left with only opinions. Treasure hunters want treasures to exist whether they do or not. It's the way we are.

Lost treasures do exist, whether we wish it or not. There are folks in some 'protectionist' groups that wish there were NO lost treasures. One thing is certain, it is far more likely that lost treasures can be found by those who look for them, than by those whom do not.

Springfield also wrote

None of the large caches are lost, but under the control of their rightful owners, whomever that might be.

I have seen you state much the same in essence before; may I ask what has led you to conclude this? As Somehiker pointed out, powers come and powers go, and when they go they generally lose control of any treasures they have secreted. Considering that the Jesuits were driven out not by their own choice, <as were the Franciscans, in 1823> I would have to think that they do not have control over any caches left behind, and probably did not even bury the treasures themselves rather their loyal Indians did this after the padres were expelled. Thank you in advance.
Oroblanco

 

[Oroblanco]

PS an afterthought on 'watchers' posted over hidden caches of treasures, is it not possible that such persons really do not KNOW they are keeping watch over a treasure site, but are 'protecting' an area where they BELIEVE a treasure is hidden? A real life situation similar to what was in the plot line of the movie Lust for Gold, in which a treasure hunter was murdering anyone who got too close to where he believed the LDM was located, even though he personally did not really know where it was. Just speculating of course.

 

[Springfield]

Springfield also wrote

None of the large caches are lost, but under the control of their rightful owners, whomever that might be.


I have seen you state much the same in essence before; may I ask what has led you to conclude this?

That's a fair question but I'm afraid I'm going to cop out with my answer ... for now, anyway. I could give you a synopsis of what I currently believe, but without sufficient evidence to meet my own standards, I wouldn't try to defend it in public. So, for now, I will say that, "It's just my opinion." I will say that I've seen quite recent compelling, if not downright shocking, cartographic evidence that there indeed is a 'unified pattern' and an ongoing conspiracy involved with all this. I doubt any of us will ever see under the hood.

 

[deducer]

Powers come and go Springfield. For example the Nazi's, who coveted, sought and accumulated treasure expected a thousand years of dominance.
But it didn't work out that way, which is why even today these looted treasures still surface from time to time. These 1280 paintings being one such case....How 1,280 Artworks Stolen by the Nazis were Hidden in a Munich Apartment Until 2012 | Vanity Fair....

A fascinating story, well worth reading all five pages. Not just for the history, but also for the insight into how the government and lawyers maneuver in such a case.

In a way perhaps, Cornelius Gurlitt was for some time in control of this treasure, but certainly was not the rightful owner.
Nor were the Nazis.

Regards:SH.

Fascinating article, thanks for posting.

Especially interesting, and perhaps applicable are the maneuvers of the government as you say, as far as filing retroactive legislation and executing a search warrant under ambiguous premises.

 

[deducer]

As Somehiker pointed out, powers come and powers go, and when they go they generally lose control of any treasures they have secreted. Considering that the Jesuits were driven out not by their own choice, <as were the Franciscans, in 1823> I would have to think that they do not have control over any caches left behind, and probably did not even bury the treasures themselves rather their loyal Indians did this after the padres were expelled. Thank you in advance.
Oroblanco

I agree that this is a realistic scenario for us to entertain, except that I think Indian labor did most of the work under the direction of the padres while they were still here either in the last few years leading up to the expulsion, or on a systematic basis over the years with the knowledge that either expulsion or native uprising was inevitable.

I really do not think the Indians would have continued doing what they saw foreign to their way of life or beliefs, if they had a choice.

 

[Oroblanco]

I agree that this is a realistic scenario for us to entertain, except that I think Indian labor did most of the work under the direction of the padres while they were still here either in the last few years leading up to the expulsion, or on a systematic basis over the years with the knowledge that either expulsion or native uprising was inevitable.

I really do not think the Indians would have continued doing what they saw foreign to their way of life or beliefs, if they had a choice.

Not to pick a bone over this as we do not know for certain how things got hidden, but consider that this work of hiding treasures and mines would not be so much, repeating the same work they did under the missionaries supervision, as it was to simply conceal the stuff. We know that there are numerous stories of Apaches covering up mines, for instance, which is not a case of the Apaches doing 'white mans work' so much as helping themselves keep the 'whites' out by concealing the gold which they believed the 'whites' were after. In support of this idea, we could note that it was the Pimas who brought out the decorations at San Xavier del Bac, on the event of Jesuit padres returning to them, and IMHO this suggests that it was the Indians whom had hidden them in the first place so were able to find and retrieve them when desired. Also, we could look at the events in New Mexico in 1680, it was the rebel Indians whom covered up the mines and defiled the churches etc - not as continuing the work they had been forced to do, but to hopefully prevent it from happening again. So the mines, and treasures, might well have been hidden by Indians whom hated the padres and the forced labor, rather than the loyal and faithful people

Springfield wrote

That's a fair question but I'm afraid I'm going to cop out with my answer ... for now, anyway. I could give you a synopsis of what I currently believe, but without sufficient evidence to meet my own standards, I wouldn't try to defend it in public. So, for now, I will say that, "It's just my opinion." I will say that I've seen quite recent compelling, if not downright shocking, cartographic evidence that there indeed is a 'unified pattern' and an ongoing conspiracy involved with all this. I doubt any of us will ever see under the hood.

I was not trying to 'bait' you into an argument over what you believe to be the case(es), just was curious as to what had led you to conclude that? I must agree that there certainly are the appearances of some agencies, some of which are powerful indeed, taking steps that look like these agencies are trying to seize or hold hidden treasures even if they have no idea exactly where these treasures are located; an example is the side of Blackbeard's ship grounding in NC, now a "park" for no good reason (what in heck is there to see? Sea water?) another in the otherwise strange selection of sites for state prisons in VA, which seem to have picked the sites of old gold mines in a number of cases, ignoring equally good sites nearby which might have been purchased for much less money, or the complex history of Victorio Peak.

In such cases there is good reason to see powerful agencies attempting to hold the lands/areas where treasures are suspected to be hidden, but on the other hand in many cases these agencies probably do not know exactly where the treasures are hidden either. In Arizona we see the sites of the old missions being 'grabbed' as monuments and/or parks, which in some cases is pretty odd behavior since there is hardly anything there to "see" for tourists like Guevavi or the old presidio of Terrenate; what harm could there be to allow treasure hunters to search <away from any ruins> is a mystery to me, except that existing ruins ought to be 'hands off' but there are not much in the way of ruins to NEED such protection anyway. I never have understood that concept that it is better to keep relics/artifacts in the ground where they will eventually rot away to a stain in the earth, rather than allow them to be recovered.

On the plus side - there is reason to believe that any sizable treasures of missions (or other sources) are not on any of the old mission grounds but in secret caves* or mines, which may well be covered up today. Of course for some folks whom are convinced there never were any treasures, none of this will matter until a large cache is found.
Roy

*Caves in particular - for father Kino himself hid the 'ornaments' of his mission in a cave during trouble. Unfortunately there are many many caves, and one full of treasure might be covered up.

 

[deducer]

Not to pick a bone over this as we do not know for certain how things got hidden, but consider that this work of hiding treasures and mines would not be so much, repeating the same work they did under the missionaries supervision, as it was to simply conceal the stuff. We know that there are numerous stories of Apaches covering up mines, for instance, which is not a case of the Apaches doing 'white mans work' so much as helping themselves keep the 'whites' out by concealing the gold which they believed the 'whites' were after. In support of this idea, we could note that it was the Pimas who brought out the decorations at San Xavier del Bac, on the event of Jesuit padres returning to them, and IMHO this suggests that it was the Indians whom had hidden them in the first place so were able to find and retrieve them when desired. Also, we could look at the events in New Mexico in 1680, it was the rebel Indians whom covered up the mines and defiled the churches etc - not as continuing the work they had been forced to do, but to hopefully prevent it from happening again. So the mines, and treasures, might well have been hidden by Indians whom hated the padres and the forced labor, rather than the loyal and faithful people

I see what you are getting at and yes, I would agree that this probably did happen on a few occasions as far as sealing up mines; not sure about treasures though.

 

[gollum]

First Roy,

No chance in h3ll that the loyal Indians hid the collected Jesuit wealth after their arrests, because at the time of their arrests, every Jesuit crevice was closely inspected. Very little was found in comparison to what we know they possessed. The Jesuits hid their own wealth. Likely, they hid it in the three years between the French Suppression (1764) and the Spanish Suppression (1767) of the Order.

There is without a doubt one or more very large caches of wealth hidden by the Jesuits still out there.

Now, some people believe much hidden wealth goes back further than that. Some believe in Templar Treasure from about 1100ad. I say it is possible. Some go further back to Phoenician/Carthaginian incursions in the New World. For reasons I will not go into, I firmly believe that. Some go even further back to Hollow Earth, Atlantis or Mu. There, I will need more evidence before jumping on that ship (and I want evidence not from a neo-nazi pedophile).

Mike

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Kill joy, sniff You doubt atlantiis ? After all that The Dakotoite has presented?

don Jose de La Mancha

 

[gollum]

I think Atlantis itself is more of a possibility than Southwestern buried treasure BEING from Atlantis (or Mu).

Mike

 

[ConceptualizedNetherlandr]

Joe,

Before anything else, again, we are friends. Nobody insulted you. I just stated a fact. Remember when Deducer cast aspersions on your research skills? Who was th first person to jump in your corner?

Once again, very simple: Father Och was nt traveling with any miners. He did nt have an entourage with him. HE was invited to join an Indian Family for dinner. He noticed all the gold flakes in the dinner plates. HE made the statement that the cost to extract them would have exceeded the value of the gold. HE said the flecks were proven to be gold by virtue of rubbing some quicksilver on them.

Lets say that for the sake of argument, that the Indian had the mercury. Father Och made two statements and committed one action showing his knowledge of the mining arts. That was the Sin of Disobedience by breaking the Ecclesiastical Precept against Priests of mining, or having knowledge of mining (either directly or indirectly).

Please show me where I have feigned insult where no insult was intended in order to avoid answering a question? Please also show me where I have started a multi page argument about some minescule deatail that had no relevance to a question asked of me? The quickest example: When Springy had some specific questions he wanted answered, did I not address them each as soon as I returned to the forum? I had some simple questions of you, and at first you avoided them, then after Deducer mentioned I was still waiting on answers, you answered one of the questions in a smarta$$ed way (basically dismissing it), then came the multi page mercury arguments. I have never ignored a direct question put to me (that I can remember). There are times when I have taken some time away from the forums, and things go unanswered. I like to think that if someone can show me convincing arguments that I am wrong on a given subject, that I am enough of a man to admit it. In the almost 140 pages of this thread, people have shown massive amounts of evidence (some documentary, some anecdotal, some circumstantial, and some wishful thinking) that the Jesuit Order was involved in mining, BUT THAT IS NOT THE MAIN THRUST OF THIS THREAD!

Remember, it is titled: "JESUIT TREASURES - ARE THEY REAL?"

THAT is why I keep saying For arguments sake, lets pretend that the Jesuits were not involved in mining........" It does not matter in the least! JUST with the loot they obtained from their LEGAL ventures, they had ammassed an enormous amount of wealth! Just read all the Jesuit Fathers' Journals. There are detailed descriptions. WHERE DID IT ALL GO?

THESE ARE THE ABSOLUTE FACTS:

1. Largest Sugar Plantation in the New World (worth millions): Taken by Spain and sold

2. Largest herds of Horses, Cattle, and Sheep in the New World: Taken by Spain and sold

3. Largest fields of crops in the New World for sale and for the missions. Taken by Spain and sold

4. Many properties received by sale, donation, and willed. Taken by Spain and sold

5. Rich Church Vestments of gold and silver: ? NOBODY KNOWS?

6. Millions of dollars annual revenue from the sugar plantation: ?NOBODY KNOWS?

7. Millions of dollars of revenue from sales of livestock: ?NOBODY KNOWS?

8. Revenues from the sale of crops: ?NOBODY KNOWS?

9. Millions upon millions of dollars donated/tithed to the Church (by law): ?NOBODY KNOWS?

Possible/Probable Wealth:

1. Gold and Silver Bullion made from secret mining operations: ?NOBODY KNOWS?

We know all that wealth was there at one point in time. It was seen and vividly described by several Jesuit Missionary Priests in their journals. Then, on the night of 25-26 June 1767, the Spanish rounded up all the Jesuits in Nueva Vizcaya. It was supposed to have been a big secret. So, why when the Spanish Soldiers tore up all the Cabeceras, Colegios, and Missions did they not find anything but a couple of thousand pesos here and there? Of the millions, upon millions, upon millions of pesos we know they made legally, only a dab was found when they were arrested.

So we know it was hidden before 25 June 1767. That idea is strengthened by the list Fray Serra put together. When he was tasked with founding the California Mission System in 1768, he was told to take anything he needed from the old Jesuit Missions. There was no wealth.

So, we are left with three choices:

1. The Jesuit Fathers lied n their journals about what they say they saw. Not very likely in my book.

2. The Jesuits had a very good "underground railroad" (not literally) tha transported all their wealth to one or the other coast for shipping to either Rome or Manilla. In 1765-1766, the Order was under VERY close surveillance by representatives of the King of Spain. It is not likely that all their collected wealth could have been shipped out of the country before then, and definitely not during or after.

3. All or some of the wealth was hidden during the three years after the French Jesuits were suppressed from French Territories, before their Spanish Suppression. Based on more anecdotal evidence than written documents (except Canada Law Review Article about Jesuit Treasure in Rio). I tend to believe theis one mainly due to the Law Review Article.

Mike

LOL @ "1. The Jesuit Fathers lied n their journals about what they say they saw. Not very likely in my book."

They lie about the supposed existence of some sort of supposed god, so why not?

 

[Ponchosportal]

"The Jesuits were deeply involved in political intrigues, even plotting with the Dutch and English to betray the whole of Spanish America to them (most to the Dutch) they were also implicated in several assassinations and uprisings; their wealth was well known to the Crown,...."

Thank you for answering my question Oroblanco.